709 replies to this topic

[Reynard Frost]

You kids need to stop whining about Day 1 DLC. You know why? Because you know nothing about how it works. Uneducated rants are the worst, especially when they're based on information that is full of holes and leaps of logic. Here is a post I wrote regarding the subject of Game Development Cycles: http://forums.rpgmak...ycle-reference/

In there you'll find a nice big picture that explains how Day 1 DLC works. It isn't the Developers making content, then going "Hurr durr, let's cut it out and sell this for 10 bucks!". No, it's them having a second team working on this BONUS content and finishing it up while the main game waits to pass. If the Day 1 DLC isn't ready, and it shows up late, then at least the main game isn't held up.

If you don't want to buy DLC, that's fine. But don't feel entitled that the content belongs to you, you are buying a service, you are buying a toy. You are buying something you don't need. If you don't like it? Then you've got two options. Either make your own games, and serve as an example to others. OR DO NOT BUY FROM THEM and speak with your dollar.

(And as Touch said, I do agree that some DLC practices are shit, sure. Not all of them are, however. A lot of DLC is "We would love to have this feature in the game but we won't have it completed in time to launch with the main game. Let's work on it anyway and release it when it's done." But honestly a 45 minute rant on a video isn't going to fix anything. Your actions of not buying from those companies will.)

Edited by Reynard Frost, 22 June 2012 - 07:41 PM.

[beanbag]

edit

Edited by beanbag, 10 April 2013 - 04:26 PM.

[Touchfuzzy]

I'll admit that certain companies are particularly bad, I just don't think the video game industry as a whole is really that bad.

Capcom for instance does a lot of kind of really wtf stuff (even they get called out more often than they probably should, but I can actually question some of their practices)

[PK8]

Seriously I watched the first 5 minutes of one, and jumped around a bit in the other. I don't have time for an hour and 15 minutes of slow rambling about how "OMG YOU GUYS ARE IDIOTS FOR STILL HAVING FUN."

L1Games (the vid I linked to) talked more than just "Day 1 DLC," such as the ramifications of games going digital, the online pass, subscriptions, the used games market being scapegoated for the failures of games and closure of studios, this notion that games aren't sold but licensed to you. And his rant isn't littered with swears (like the first video was) and he backed his opinions up with some sources.

Just saying, man.

Edited by α PK8, 22 June 2012 - 08:09 PM.

[Touchfuzzy]

PK8, I know that Day 1 DLC wasn't the only issue he covered.

It was still 45 minutes of rambling on stuff that I could cover in 5.

There ARE problems with the gaming industry. There have ALWAYS been problems with the gaming industry.

And a majority of stuff like online passes and new purchase free DLC... honestly dude I don't care. Yes, you already paid for the game when you bought it the first time, and whatever if you want to sell it, sell it. But publishers aren't responsible for server upkeep on used games. There is nothing wrong with them incentivizing new game sales. New games are where publishers/developers can make money. Used game sales do nothing for them. I can understand, and see nothing wrong with giving people A. either a reason to buy new, or B. restricting a dlc or use of their servers to actual paying customers of THEIRS. When you buy the online pass or the DLC, you become a paying customer of theirs, and it works out well for them.

And even then... if you do think that this stuff is bad for gaming (I don't), does stuff like this suddenly mean that gaming as at an all time low?

No, not really. There are tons of small things like this, there have always been tons of small things like this.

Do you know what is awesome though: Used to I finished a game, and it was done. Never would I get to do anything new in that game. But now?

Dude I have tons of Saint's Row the Third DLC I've not even played yet. I played that game to death. And now I get to play MORE NEW AWESOME STUFF for it. Would this stuff have even existed if not for today's move to digital distribution? No. It wouldn't. They wouldn't have included it magically in the original game with no budget for it, it wouldn't have been feasible to create whole new discs and ask people to rebuy things for it.

And this is just ONE advantage of today's method of game development. Is it perfect? No. Are there no problems that arise from it? Yes. Does that mean that the negatives outweigh the positives? Not necessarily.

[Hybrida]

@ All the defenders of this generation That's great in all, Touchfuzzy have some points, but It's a darker picture to all of this. I guess you guys won't see it until it's too late. I would rather listen the the majority of "real" gamers and solid information. Everyday I search many gaming sites to see how "real" gamers feel about all of this. They're not happy. People have stepped down from gaming companies and explained what really goes on. A lot of gamers have gave up console gaming already. I study gaming and practices gaming companies use every single day.

If the guys in the video were so wrong, I'm pretty sure they'll have a lot of thumbs down and hatred on every page, but they don't. There's a reason. The guys in those videos have more valid points than anyone here, and it's backed. Just use common sense. I see that's lacking from what I read, but that's not my fault. In my eyes all I see is people fighting to be scammed here. Yes, valid reasons posted to get scammed. "Now we can get more from an old completed game." Yes good, but when you pay $49.99 for a $9.99 DLC there's a problem right? No, according to you guys. Some companies give out DLC for free.

So EA and Capcom will continue with their plans. EA is buying out other companies and getting bigger and bigger. You people are feeding companies like EA. As long as they get your money they'll continue come up with new scams to get more money. Then EA will buy out the so called 'good companies.' At the current rate EA will be the gaming industry soon. If that happens it's all over. We have power to bring them down, but we can't because people like you guys fund them. Oh, well I tried ( again ). EA is just the tip of the Iceberg...

'It's not all bad.' Yes, but it's nowhere close to good.

[Touchfuzzy]

Hybrida, I suggest you look up the No True Scotsman fallacy.

[Kilim]

@ All the defenders of this generation That's great in all, Touchfuzzy have some points, but It's a darker picture to all of this. I guess you guys won't see it until it's too late. I would rather listen the the majority of "real" gamers and solid information. Everyday I search many gaming sites to see how "real" gamers feel about all of this. They're not happy. People have stepped down from gaming companies and explained what really goes on. A lot of gamers have gave up console gaming already. I study gaming and practices gaming companies use every single day.

If the guys in the video were so wrong, I'm pretty sure they'll have a lot of thumbs down and hatred on every page, but they don't. There's a reason. The guys in those videos have more valid points than anyone here, and it's backed. Just use common sense. I see that's lacking from what I read, but that's not my fault. In my eyes all I see is people fighting to be scammed here. Yes, valid reasons posted to get scammed. "Now we can get more from an old completed game." Yes good, but when you pay $49.99 for a $9.99 DLC there's a problem right? No, according to you guys. Some companies give out DLC for free.

So EA and Capcom will continue with their plans. EA is buying out other companies and getting bigger and bigger. You people are feeding companies like EA. As long as they get your money they'll continue come up with new scams to get more money. Then EA will buy out the so called 'good companies.' At the current rate EA will be the gaming industry soon. If that happens it's all over. We have power to bring them down, but we can't because people like you guys fund them. Oh, well I tried ( again ). EA is just the tip of the Iceberg...

'It's not all bad.' Yes, but it's nowhere close to good.

Please define what a 'real gamer' is.

[Reynard Frost]

@ All the defenders of this generation That's great in all, Touchfuzzy have some points, but It's a darker picture to all of this. I guess you guys won't see it until it's too late. I would rather listen the the majority of "real" gamers and solid information. Everyday I search many gaming sites to see how "real" gamers feel about all of this. They're not happy. People have stepped down from gaming companies and explained what really goes on. A lot of gamers have gave up console gaming already. I study gaming and practices gaming companies use every single day.

If the guys in the video were so wrong, I'm pretty sure they'll have a lot of thumbs down and hatred on every page, but they don't. There's a reason. The guys in those videos have more valid points than anyone here, and it's backed. Just use common sense. I see that's lacking from what I read, but that's not my fault. In my eyes all I see is people fighting to be scammed here. Yes, valid reasons posted to get scammed. "Now we can get more from an old completed game." Yes good, but when you pay $49.99 for a $9.99 DLC there's a problem right? No, according to you guys. Some companies give out DLC for free.

So EA and Capcom will continue with their plans. EA is buying out other companies and getting bigger and bigger. You people are feeding companies like EA. As long as they get your money they'll continue come up with new scams to get more money. Then EA will buy out the so called 'good companies.' At the current rate EA will be the gaming industry soon. If that happens it's all over. We have power to bring them down, but we can't because people like you guys fund them. Oh, well I tried ( again ). EA is just the tip of the Iceberg...

'It's not all bad.' Yes, but it's nowhere close to good.

These 'real gamers' you speak of are misguided and going off of improper information. EA doesn't buy out all companies. There are many publishers but there are also individual developers. Insomniac Games for one is an independent studio that is not governed by any publishers.

It's an evolution of the medium, some abuse it, some use it well. It's not the doom of a generation. It's just as flawed as those before it, just those flaws change.

Instead of crying about the situation, take steps to change it.

[Hybrida]

Real Gamer: Die hard people who plays games, owns a lot of games, the best at games, not a sucker to get scammed at games, do whatever it takes to get more games cheaper (so you can get more games), not bias when buying systems or games, people who game daily for many hours, ETC.
The entire left side of my room is games... ( $14,900 total or close to it. Started in 1989. )

"Hybrida, I suggest you look up the No True Scotsman fallacy." --- Umm No. Unlike you. I'm a real video game specialist. I worked for SONY. I know the underhanded activity that goes on. It's getting worst for SONY, MS, EA, Capcom. I've also sold games before. I know how the people think. You're clearly not thinking like them. I proud of the gamers who can identify scams & underhanded tactics. A 'real gamer' knows when they're being sold the same **** over and over, Call of Duty for example. Though some may buy it anyway to see if it's any new features-- only to see there is none (Return to store).


"Instead of crying about the situation, take steps to change it."
@ Frost I can't stop it. As long as people like you guys are getting scammed and taken for a ride by companies like EA-- it will continue. We have to stop buying their games and any from them. Teach them a lesson. We have the power....

Edited by Hybrida, 22 June 2012 - 11:12 PM.

[Reynard Frost]

Real Gamer: Die hard people who plays games, owns a lot of games, the best at games, not a sucker to get scammed at games, do whatever it takes to get more games cheaper (so you can get more games), not bias when buying systems or games, people who game daily for many hours, ETC.
The entire left side of my room is games... ( $14,900 total or close to it. Started in 1989. )

"Hybrida, I suggest you look up the No True Scotsman fallacy." --- Umm No. Unlike you. I'm a real video game specialist. I worked for SONY. I know the underhanded activity that goes on. It's getting worst for SONY, MS, EA, Capcom. I've also sold games before. I know how the people think. You're clearly not thinking like them. I proud of the gamers who can identify scams & underhanded tactics. A 'real gamer' knows when they're being sold the same **** over and over, Call of Duty for example. Though some may buy it anyway to see if it's any new features-- only to see there is none (Return to store).

I fit your Real Gamer definition to a T, and I've worked for Sony Santa Monica, Naughty Dog, and Disney. It's not underhanded where the Developer is concerned. (Although Publishers can get a bit sneaky, but the Developers usually sigh and try to work around it.)

Some tactics are bad, not all of them are. The generation is not doomed, it is as flawed as those before it. Some flaws are mended and others take their place.

"Instead of crying about the situation, take steps to change it."
@ Frost I can't stop it. As long as people like you guys are getting scammed and taken for a ride by companies like EA-- it will continue. We have to stop buying their games and any from them. Teach them a lesson. We have the power....

I don't get scammed, if I don't like what they have to sell, I just don't buy it. A scam is only a scam if deceit is involved. What you are buying is up front and at face value. If you don't like it, then don't buy it.

Edited by Reynard Frost, 22 June 2012 - 11:13 PM.

[Touchfuzzy]

Hybrida. The No True Scotsman fallacy is such:

No Scotsman would do X

Well so and so does X and he is a Scotsman

Well, NO TRUE SCOTSMAN WOULD DO X.

Your whole idea hinges on "Real gamers think that modern gaming is a scam" and you believe this to such a degree that anyone who doesn't believe the same is obviously NOT A REAL GAMER. That is a shockingly dumb move. I would think someone with such business savvy to have amassed such a VAST sum of money as you would be quite capable of understanding logical fallacies.

Then again, I suppose all that business savvy also comes with an ability to create spin. But that has nothing to do with factual assessments.

Also, yeah, I own massive amounts of gaming stuff. I do have other hobbies, but I've owned every system since the NES (some of which I've actually owned more than once, there were in fact 4 DSes in my house at one time) and have amassed a massive number of games over the years. Added on to that Frost actually does work in the field, as well as being I'm sure as much of a gamer as I am.

By saying "no real gamer believes like you" you aren't really saying anything about me, only yourself. That you think that intelligent discourse can be shouted down by accusing the other side of not being a genuine gamer like YOU.

[Reynard Frost]

Also, yeah, I own massive amounts of gaming stuff. I do have other hobbies, but I've owned every system since the NES (some of which I've actually owned more than once, there were in fact 4 DSes in my house at one time) and have amassed a massive number of games over the years. Added on to that Frost actually does work in the field, as well as being I'm sure as much of a gamer as I am.

I own every console of the current generation, I've owned every console of every previous generation at one point. I've also been gaming since before I went to kindergarten. (Blaster Master, nukka). So yes, you are correct in that assumption.

[Lone Wolf]

( $14,900 total or close to it. Started in 1989. )

But to the point:

The end of civilization as we know it has been foretold with a great deal of immediacy by just about every culture in the world since pre-Biblical times. The real endings come at the true height of success, and then the fall is so sudden and immediate that nobody notices until it's too late. Afterwards its pretty easy to separate what actually went wrong from the white noise, but that's a task almost never accomplished in the present. (I realize there's kind of a logic puzzle buried in there, but yeah.) If gaming is still in the doomsaying phase, I say it's still got a good long life ahead.

[Kilim]

"Hybrida, I suggest you look up the No True Scotsman fallacy." --- Umm No. Unlike you. I'm a real video game specialist.

[Celianna]

"Hybrida, I suggest you look up the No True Scotsman fallacy." --- Umm No. Unlike you. I'm a real video game specialist.

... You should really look it up. It's a common argument to mean 'No one is a real Y unless they are X, and X is what I say it is' and X can change so many times. X has no boundaries, and changes per person.

You can't say 'this is what a real gamer is' and not get hordes of other people telling you that you are wrong. There is no true gamer, just like there is no true Scotsman. It doesn't exist. So to argue from this standpoint is futile.

@Crimson: no matter how ridiculous someone's post is, try not to spam.

[Hybrida]

"You can't say 'this is what a real gamer is' and not get hordes of other people telling you that you are wrong. There is no true gamer, just like there is no true Scotsman. It doesn't exist. So to argue from this standpoint is futile."

I don't care if the entire universe says I'm wrong... I have logic behind what I'm saying. You can define True/Real gamers just like you can define anything else. IE: Starwars fans. There's a guy with all six movies, and then there's guy with everything starwars since 1977. He's the real/True fan. This works in the job world too. If someone studied physics for 1 year and have a another who studied it for 20 years, He's most likely viewed as the real physics master, and will be hired. So all this fake 'we do know what you mean Hybrida' crap needs to stop. It can be a true anything, this is why man created the words 'expert and elite.' It works with fighter planes too: If you have an P51 and F-22, everyone knows the F-22 is the true air superiority fighter. Just simple logic.

You guys can disagree with me until the sun goes supernova, but I stand by my words 100%. Seems like you guys are just doing this to have something to type... Have a nice day.

[Lunarea]

But your definition is completely subjective and based on what you feel is "true/real". Someone else might disagree with you and feel that a true gamer isn't defined by the number of games they own, but by the amount of time they invested in games. To them, a true gamer could be someone who has 10 games total, but who spends virtually any free time they have playing games. Someone who prefers to stay at home and play Final Fantasy 7 for the 30th time instead of going out drinking with friends.

Yet another person would define a true gamer as someone who not only spends time playing a game, but also researching it, debating or making fanart. A person who spends hours reading the lore behind their favorite game could be a true gamer.

Whatever that subjective definition is, it implies a sense of superiority/inferiority and that's just lame. Regardless of how much (or how little) a person spends on games or the amount of dedication they give to video games, they're all affected by the industry and the industry's choices. And they will all have different opinions about the industry.

It's nice that you're looking at various sources when it comes to gaming news. But don't kid yourself into thinking that you're immediately looking at something that has more truth to it. Things that you read that come from "real" gamers are still opinion pieces that show only one side of the story. The industry (and life in general) are far too complex to be fit into one neat little opinion piece.

[Confederacy]

I have logic behind what I'm saying.

Sure it's common knowledge, doesn't mean you're right.

You can define True/Real gamers just like you can define anything else. IE: Starwars fans. There's a guy with all six movies, and then there's guy with everything starwars since 1977

Chances are there's an age gap, and in which case, invalidates your argument.

If someone studied physics for 1 year and have a another who studied it for 20 years, He's most likely viewed as the real physics master, and will be hired.

20 years, huh? Sure, that's impressive, but let's also factor in how old the person is, their actual experience, and their overall work ethic. Most likely it'll guarantee is that they'll likely to have a higher position they applied for than the person with only 1 year of studying physics.

It works with fighter planes too: If you have an P51 and F-22, everyone knows the F-22 is the true air superiority fighter.

Oh, another age gap, another invalid argument.

Just simple logic.

Except when you give horrible examples.

You guys can disagree with me until the sun goes supernova, but I stand by my words 100%. Seems like you guys are just doing this to have something to type... Have a nice day.

Nihil novi sub sole. Ignorance is bliss.

[PK8]

Ahem.

Man, I'm not sure if all this time, effort, and emotion I'm investing into getting this band off the ground is going to be worth it, and I need to start writing songs again. My bandmates have been getting a bit antsy with it.