Can I please get an example of where such system appears?
It is hard for me to enjoy FFT as much when I know how the job class you are affects stat growth in levels, because it leads to ideal characters (barring abuse of things like level/delevel strats, which break the game entirely), being built by doing things like spillover JP abuse and bringing a low level person to beat on to gain JP but not XP.
Breath of Fire III has a similar problem in that leveling before you gain access to masters harms your potential stats (though at least BoFIII you can use the fairie village to get all the stat up items you want, so this is correctable).
Being punished for leveling "incorrectly" is just annoying, especially when the correct way to level is gated into later portions of the game.
you mean to prevent someone from screwing up their build?
Thinks of EVs, IVs and Natures in Pokémon.
My point is that, yes, the games are completely beatable even if you don't take full advantage of these systems. But at the same time, if a perfectionist knows how they work, it makes it much harder for them to play without number crunching. I never feel like I can just relax and goof around in the game, because I'm mechanically worse if I don't pay attention to details.
You should never feel like leveling is bad.
@Milennin another great example! Though not as bad because other than legendaries, you can always just start over on a Pokemon.
Can't start over on your FFT Ramza.
Honestly, I'd say that the EV/IV/Nature thing with pokemon is only an issue with Legendaries though because of always being able to start over with others, and since legendaries are already kind of broken, it's less of an issue.
I've never really overthought Pokémon to be honest. And I don't try to overthing many games either, I just simplify the game to a couple of strategic points which work.
I think number crunching is a positive but to each their own. Like with Dark Souls you have to choose where to invest your points otherwise your dude will be pretty mediocre. I find it gives extra depth so it all depends who you ask.
@FleshToDust It isn't just the number crunching though. Choosing where to invest points isn't the problem. It is situations where you get LESS points if you level before you do something else.
In FFT, every time you level in a job like Squire, your stats are lower than if you had leveled in a job like Ninja, but you have to finagle the hell out of the system to open the Ninja job without leveling.
To put it shorter: In Dark Souls I only have to think about how I'm placing points DURING leveling. In FFT, I'm having to consider what job my characters are in and how to manipulate the XP/JP system to prevent them from leveling in bad growth classes during every moment of the game.
Ah yeah I can see how that would be irritating. I also don't like the ev/iv system in Pokemon.
My question is how do you figure these things out without an out of game source? I've played fft a lot an never really figured out optimal leveling. Core concept like knights level def and mages mat, but without looking up spreadsheets or doing an insane level of math how do you come to know how inefficiently you are leveling, particularly in a game like fft where levels (besides ramzas) don't really matter?
Actually, MA growth is the same in almost every class in FFT, the multipliers are what make strong differences.
PA growth and speed growth can vary though. The difference between best and worst growth for PA maxes out a +7 difference before job multipliers (11 vs 18) (Male character)
And trust me, 11 vs 18 is VERY noticeable for PA, Post multipliers you are looking at stuff like 13-15 vs 22-26 for physical classes.
You may not know why your character is weaker, but they will be noticeably weaker.
I actually don't bother with EV and IV in Pokémon. EV comes in naturally as I go and I don't really use many pokémon anyway. In Pokémon silver I even went with greatly underleveled Pokémon, because I did not want to level my pokémon to level 60 against Red. And in Emerald I had just three main Pokémon - linoone, swampert and hariyama. For some reason it was enough without too much grinding.
The biggest issue with complex shystems is though that usually they're pretty exploitable. In Pokémon the stupid AI is impressively exploitable. My brother once also exploited the mechanics of item collectors (meowth in leaf green) and went with just his starter, collecting items. I'm sure even the fft levelling system has exploits.
Pokemon is a fine example of this. Catch Pokemon that specializes in Physical Attacks -> Has Modest Nature, or anything but Adamant Nature, really -> Resets game.
I don't mind IVs as much, percentages affect the stats more than flat values.
Or any MMO ever. "learn the meta and conform or suck forever"
Sometimes simpler really is better.
"Do make such systems" ~ Gotcha
Separate names with a comma.