Comments on Profile Post by TheoAllen

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  2. The Stranger
    The Stranger
    I wouldn't claim to have made every aspect of my game by myself because it's just not true. Other people helped me by creating art, music, and plug-ins for me.
    Sep 12, 2019
    mishakoc likes this.
  3. Philosophus Vagus
    Philosophus Vagus
    Better vampires for instance, personally expanding it A bit and then releasing it as competition to his mod that unarguably already blows the default Skyrim experience for vampires out of the water in every way. Believe it or not there is a community that is more than willing to pay modders that are good enough to keep modding.
    Sep 12, 2019
  4. mishakoc
    mishakoc
    And the modders don't really claim every single part of their mod, do they? It just seems a little bit dismissive to say they are not the "actual creators". Even if you write a fanfic, you are an actual creator of the fanfic, no matter that the original creation is not yours.
    Sep 12, 2019
  5. Philosophus Vagus
    Philosophus Vagus
    But if you allow anyone to tweak and reupload your work unrestricted it can quickly be bogged down by the copycat tweekers and obscure your work from the public eye. That said, there is nothing any modder can do to stop you from making personal adjustments for personal use, the tools are available to everyone. But I feel they should have a right to keep people from reuploading those adjustments as their own.
    Sep 12, 2019
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  6. mishakoc
    mishakoc
    @Philosophus Vagus Yep, in my opinion reuploading other people's mod, even if edited, without permission is just (at the very least) bad manners, even if it might not be illegal from the developer's point of view.
    Sep 12, 2019
  7. TheoAllen
    TheoAllen
    Regarding the bruma topic, it's cool on its own, but if the team locked the permission that no other people should make a change and improve the experience, that is just not cool.
    Sep 12, 2019
    The Stranger likes this.
  8. TheoAllen
    TheoAllen
    And when I said modify, it is not exactly reupload the mod in the modified version. It might be just a patch, a separate file requiring the main file.
    Sep 12, 2019
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  9. The Stranger
    The Stranger
    I really don't see anything wrong with someone modding a mod. Their altered version might appeal to a totally different crowd.
    Sep 12, 2019
  10. mishakoc
    mishakoc
    @TheoAllen Making a standalone patch sounds fine to me. Reuploading without permission is the problem, I think.

    @The Stranger So taking a fanfiction and adding a paragraph or two and sharing without any sort of permission would be okay with you? Or a plugin? Sprite? Isn't this essentially the same thing as you said before?
    Sep 12, 2019
    The Stranger likes this.
  11. Philosophus Vagus
    Philosophus Vagus
    @TheoAllen Very few modders disallow this though. For instance, the Beyond Skyrim folks let the folks who made Rigmor of Bruma (awesome, but buggy, lore overhaul mod) use their Bruma assets (which include a lot of original assets btw not just stock Bethesda) to create the sequel mod that takes place there, saving them countless hundreds of hours of redundant work.
    Sep 12, 2019
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  12. The Stranger
    The Stranger
    @mishakoc Yep, perfectly fine. If the original work was allowed to be altered, then why not the altered version?
    Sep 12, 2019
  13. Philosophus Vagus
    Philosophus Vagus
    @The Stranger Maybe, but it also floods the nexus/workshop with a ton of lightly edited copycat mods. Since you know how "shitty" most mods are you should be able to understand how that can be a problem for people trying to sift through to find the gems. And I meant no offense by calling you a purist, nothing wrong with playing the game without any mods, that's just the word for it in the modding community.
    Sep 12, 2019
  14. mishakoc
    mishakoc
    @The Stranger I don't really understand this position at all. If I understand correctly, so you mean I should be able to take all of Yanfly's scripts and plugins, change some tiny things and release them without people here piercing me with pitchforks? Because he didn't develop the RPG Maker engine? Take all of the RTP based graphics, change hues and do the same, because the artists didn't draw it all?
    Sep 12, 2019
  15. The Stranger
    The Stranger
    @Philosophus Vagus I think most mods are shitty because the most of the ones I've seen or used have been shitty, in my opinion. You know that one man's trash is another man's treasure. What you may consider these crappy mods, someone else might think is good or a lot of fun. I always thought that purist was a label given to those who think an unaltered version of something is the superior version.
    Sep 12, 2019
  16. The Stranger
    The Stranger
    @mishakoc Plenty of people already share minor edits of the RTP. I'd think it'd be wrong for that person to then try to deny other people the opportunity to edit their edits of the RTP.
    Sep 12, 2019
  17. TheoAllen
    TheoAllen
    @Philosophus Vagus I was refraining from mentioning specific author or mods, but if you want an example, look at Immersive Armors, closed permission, stuck in 2016, no update, bugs had been reported, the author didn't do anything. Then most of the people advocating to stay away from it.

    Regarding the flood of shitty mods, it's the entirely different matter. The guide exists to mention the gems
    Sep 12, 2019
  18. Philosophus Vagus
    Philosophus Vagus
    Isn't that essentially what you are saying though? I mean, objectively you are right, most mods start out crap. They do. If your attempts were within the first couple of years of the game's release then I can understand where you are coming from. But remember that the modding community, the people who stay doing this, are single people or small teams working for years, and that the mods don't stay that way.
    Sep 12, 2019
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  19. Philosophus Vagus
    Philosophus Vagus
    If you were to say, let someone who knows what they were doing mod your skyrim for you in a stable way and to your tastes today, I have my doubts that you'd ever want to go back to vanilla. There's just so much there that is objectively far above the quality that Bethesda offers at this point.
    Sep 12, 2019
    mishakoc likes this.
  20. Philosophus Vagus
    Philosophus Vagus
    @TheoAllen I'll give you that one. I have a self-made patch for IA myself to make it work with Rigmor (trying to load both causes a new game to freeze on installation). If you aren't maintaining it you should at least allow for patches, granted again, the modders who don't are extremely rare regardless.
    Sep 12, 2019
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  21. mishakoc
    mishakoc
    @The Stranger Minor edits are minor edits. When do they stop being minor? What about the plugins then?
    I'd consider it rude to not at least ask if you can edit it and share.
    Sep 12, 2019
  22. The Stranger
    The Stranger
    @Philosophus Vagus True. Perhaps I don't give most mods a chance in the long run. I'll usually just scrap them after a while for one reason or another. The main reason I don't bother with mods is because I simply don't want to use them. Perhaps some of my dislike is down to how others bang on about mods being the best thing in the world. Starts to screw with your own beliefs over time.
    Sep 12, 2019
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  23. The Stranger
    The Stranger
    @mishakoc Not sure about the plug-ins, since they may or may not be alterations of MV's base plug-ins. I think that altering modded versions of the RTP is perfectly fine, though.
    Sep 12, 2019
  24. mishakoc
    mishakoc
    @The Stranger Even if the plugins are not alterations, they are using the RPG Maker's method's libraries, objects, and whatnot and wouldn't be able to exist stand alone.
    As some sort of pseudo-artist, I guess I just have to disagree with you. :D
    Sep 12, 2019
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  25. mishakoc
    mishakoc
    I wonder where it ends for you though. Art made from scratch but in the RTP style is whose work? Are the released games (which are basically just a tiny modification of RPG Maker engine, since you only add few text files with your information to it) supposed to also be up for alteration to everyone?
    Sep 12, 2019
  26. The Stranger
    The Stranger
    @mishakoc Something made in the chibi style wouldn't belong to the RTP. Chibi is its own style and wasn't made by RPG Maker. So, an original chibi wouldn't be okay to modify without permission, in my opinion.
    Sep 12, 2019
  27. The Stranger
    The Stranger
    Your game might be minor alterations to the RPG Maker base scripts on a mechanical level, but many of the other assets might not be. If you've paid for assets, whether via commission or the shop, then you have a license to use those things, other people might not. Some people do deploy unecrypted games for others to screw around with, though.
    Sep 12, 2019
  28. mishakoc
    mishakoc
    Sep 12, 2019
  29. mishakoc
    mishakoc
    And if you don't use any commissioned work, only free stuff from the forums then what? If all people are able to find these same resources online and use them. Is the game not yours then?
    Sep 12, 2019
  30. The Stranger
    The Stranger
    Then what? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at anymore. We were originally talking about ownership, now I think we're on to the morality of very specific things. The bird is fine to edit, but not fine to upload without permission because the non-RTP parts aren't RTP, they're Avery's own creation. if it was just the RTP bird, I wouldn't see a problem. You're allowed to edit the RTP as you see fit.
    Sep 12, 2019
    mishakoc likes this.
  31. The Stranger
    The Stranger
    Well, the resources aren't yours if they're freely available to everyone. Anyone can edit them and use them as they see fit so long as adhere to whatever license those resources are distributed under. The complete game would be yours, though.
    Sep 12, 2019
  32. The Stranger
    The Stranger
    RPG Maker is a game engine, it's not a modding tool for another game. You might as well ask if any game belongs to the devs, since most devs use prebuilt engines, and some even use store bought assets.
    Sep 12, 2019
  33. mishakoc
    mishakoc
    @The Stranger Ok, sorry xD I'll try to speak more clearly.
    You said if you modify something (assets in this case), then others should be able to take it, modify and share how they please (because you don't own things you modify, I assume).
    In that case, plugins modify the engine, so they should be free to take too, right?
    Sep 12, 2019
  34. mishakoc
    mishakoc
    And your game as well in that case, if you use only modified materials or RTP, because you didn't make them or only did edits.
    It's kind of similar with the mods, no?
    Sep 12, 2019
  35. mishakoc
    mishakoc
    I guess I type too slowly
    Sep 12, 2019
  36. mishakoc
    mishakoc
    Hm... But I guess you are right that I take it more like a moral question right now. If you do some kind of work for the community (modding or resources) why should people be fine just taking it and "stealing" it? Even if it doesn't entirely belong to you, it's not like it's people can't at least show them some sort of tiny respect.
    Sep 12, 2019
  37. The Stranger
    The Stranger
    If the originals are allowed to be modified. The RTP is allowed to be modified, so I personally think it's wrong if someone edits the RTP, uploads it, and tries to prevent others from editing their edits. I just think that edits should abide by the terms of the original.
    Sep 12, 2019
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  38. mishakoc
    mishakoc
    Why should you be able to take it without fans and fellow creators being angry for it? Because it's legal? If you look at it like this, I guess that's fine too...
    Sep 12, 2019
  39. mishakoc
    mishakoc
    I mean there's edits and edits. On the previous topic of mods, calling some of them edits is a bit dismissive, even if they, in fact, edit the game.
    Sep 12, 2019
  40. The Stranger
    The Stranger
    Yeah, it's cool to want recognition for your work, your part in things. I just think that if the original says editing is fine, then your edits should also be fine to edit. I can understand your problem with redistributing them, though.
    Sep 12, 2019
  41. The Stranger
    The Stranger
    I think I probably could've done a better job at explaining what I meant by ownership too. I didn't mean that others can take your work and claim it as their own, but just that you can't claim it totally as yours because it's an edit.
    Sep 12, 2019
  42. TheoAllen
    TheoAllen
    @Philosophus Vagus exactly why my comments are directly for those minority. Like, why cant they just be like everyone else

    Regarding plugin/RTP/RPG Maker topics, you guys are on your own. My main topic is *specifically* for game mods, not anything related to RM or any analogy related to it.
    Sep 12, 2019
    The Stranger likes this.
  43. The Stranger
    The Stranger
    I don't think it's dismissive to call a mod an edit. I don't see it as derogatory. They're modifications of something else, but that doesn't make them worthless.
    Sep 12, 2019
  44. The Stranger
    The Stranger
    @TheoAllen LOL! Yeah, sorry for derailing your status.
    Sep 12, 2019
    mishakoc likes this.
  45. TheoAllen
    TheoAllen
    My main problem is that the mod permission or pretend that some of the modders think they're developing a game thus they are not allowed to edit (some even put anti-cheat system, I don't know anymore). I'm not suggesting anything about flipping the work then call it your own mod or even put it behind the paywall without the mod author permission. That is just dumb.
    Sep 13, 2019
    The Stranger likes this.
  46. TheoAllen
    TheoAllen
    But the fact that the game is open to editing, why I can't edit their mod as well. Expanding the possibility, make the game more fun or better for the modding community. The credit is still into the original author.
    Sep 13, 2019
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  47. mishakoc
    mishakoc
    @The Stranger Oh! I mean if by edits you mean edits for personal use, then, of course, I'm with you, I don't get why anyone should be unable to do that. The sharing is the problematic part and only if the editor doesn't agree or is not notified about it.
    Sep 13, 2019
    The Stranger likes this.
  48. mishakoc
    mishakoc
    I get that the editor can't claim 100% ownership, even if the edits are heavy. Glad we seem to understand each other now (I hope). xD
    @TheoAllen Whoops! Sorry about all this.
    Sep 13, 2019
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  49. TheoAllen
    TheoAllen
    @mishakoc it's ok, I just won't respond or care about your RM analogy. It's an entirely different matter in my opinion.
    Sep 13, 2019
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  50. The Stranger
    The Stranger
    @mishakoc I think I've read somewhere that edits still belong to the original creator, not to the editor. Can't remember where I read it, nor do I know how true it is. Maybe I just misread one of the licenses I have or something. lol.
    Sep 13, 2019
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  51. TheoAllen
    TheoAllen
    It's probably Andar's post somewhere in the forum. I recall such line as well.
    Sep 13, 2019
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