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Kupotepo
Kupotepo
I see fire on the roof and also who tried to destroy the church's windows. Do you think it might be robbery?
The Stranger
The Stranger
Yeah. It needs to end. Where do we draw the line? Will we raze all of our historical monuments and structures? This has nothing to do with justice and people being offended (not that that's justification for destroying hundreds of years worth of history and cultuer in the first place), and it should not be tolerated.
The Stranger
The Stranger
@Kupotepo Is that the right story? That's from 2019.
Kupotepo
Kupotepo
@The Stranger, good catch thank you. So it is the another place.
@Philosophus Vagus, Fire set at historic St. John’s church. Here we know who did that, right?
Kupotepo
Kupotepo
@Philosophus Vagus, thank you bring up. It did not know that rioters, not the peaceful protestors, damage the 6 churches in total. I still asking what the church people have done to you.
The Stranger
The Stranger
I can't find anything about this church. I don't even know its name. I have discovered that there has been quite a few acts of vandalism targeting churches in America, though. Oh, and that hundreds of people gathered to celebrate the 4th of July without masks, apparently. lol.
Kupotepo
JosephSeraph
JosephSeraph
I don't see pride of one's heritage being inhibited in the west, it's just that there's so many people tainting such heritage by wielding it as weapons against the less fortunate that it becomes ridiculous. Not to mention that said pride and heritage tend to be selective, given by the vast majority of public statues in the US being about colonists rather than the richly historical native people.
JosephSeraph
JosephSeraph
I have been thinking about this in the context of my own country, Brazil. A land that, much like the US, is also fruit of European colonization, and as a sovereign country, is rather young. But Brazil is not 500 years old. The people of Brazil carry thousands of years of history that's brushed just out of sight. History of Portugal and Rome, but also history of native Americans, and of ancient African kingdoms.
Geovid
Geovid
Thats so sad. I'm not really a fan of religion but I think history should be preserved. I almost cried when isis was destroying thousand year old monuments. :(
The Stranger
The Stranger
@JosephSeraph I can understand wanting to tell the stories and histories of the other folk also native to those lands, but I don't believe people should ever destroy historical relics. Destroying these things changes nothing.
The Stranger
The Stranger
It doesn't expunge the things those people did from history or our society, it doesn't change whatever problems may or may not be present. It just comes across as reactionary, childish, as little more than petty vandalism. There are better ways to change society, but the destruction of historical landmarks and monuments isn't one of them, in my opinion.
JosephSeraph
JosephSeraph
Ah I don't necessarily disagree! What I disagree with is specifically that "the west is nurturing a shaming of national pride" or something among those lines which is eerily close to what some morally dubious people say.
But I agree that historical monuments are of great value to our culture and, uh, history, and that deprecating them may do more harm than good.
The Stranger
The Stranger
@JosephSeraph I think it is true, at least to an extent. There's a strange double standard when it comes to nationalism and cultural pride at the moment. Not sure what it's like where you live or in America, but over here, very xenophobic forms of nationalism, such as Welsh and Scottish nationalism, are excused and sometimes even celebrated, (continued)
The Stranger
The Stranger
whereas English (not British) nationalism is nearly always made out to be for fools and racists. None of these forms of nationalism are different from one another outside of the parties involved. All have extremely hostile groups of people using it as a weapon against people they deem outsiders, all use it to attack historical foes, but only the English variety is talked about as being bad.
JosephSeraph
JosephSeraph
I think nationalism, as in the sense of preserving the status quo and secular dynamics of a certain country, is inherently bad. It's different from pride, from celebrating heritage. The past is made of mistakes to be purged, and victories to be celebrated and learnt from. Any movement that aims to freeze the status quo and expel those who don't fit in it, to me, is inherently cancerous to civilization.
The Stranger
The Stranger
I'm of the opinion that, in moderation, nationalism or national pride (whatever we want to call it) is good for any nation. It's important for societal cohesion, can encourage people to better take care of local and wider communities both, aswell as to inspire them to stand up for, and improve upon, the place so many have helped to create.
The Stranger
The Stranger
@JosephSeraph The past can never be cleansed of the mistakes of our ancestors, and nor should we try to do such a thing. We should learn to live with both the victories and the defeats. Our historical wrongs should be learnt from, not hidden or glossed over, so we can try to avoid making those same mistakes in the future.
Kes
Kes
@The Stranger I think what you're pointing to is the difference between patriotism and nationalism. Patriotism is a love of your country, and when you love someone/something you can do so while still acknowledging the mistakes, limitations, defects in that person/thing. [continued]
Kes
Kes
[in continuation] You are not inherently saying that the person/thing is superior to every other person/thing and can celebrate the good in the other. Nationalism is where you don't acknowledge the problems, and to even speak of them is threatening, and is about superiority.

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