3D RPG Maker?

Discussion in 'Video Games' started by CleanWater, Jul 10, 2017.

  1. onipunk

    onipunk Archmage of Procrastination Veteran

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    I'm an animation student myself so I know for sure that the process of actual animation is faster in 3D, as is asset creation once you have a good workflow down. But getting to that point requires a lot more time and monetary investment, and I feel like 2D is a less technically-demanding industry than 3D is. You can be a great 2D artist and animator and not have the foggiest how to do it in 3D cause they might not have the logical thinking or technical skills required to create even a single model. Like I said, anyone can open Paint and draw or edit a sprite, not just anyone can open up Maya and start modelling, rigging, texturing and animating a character.

    ...Then again I may just be bitter about how crap I was at 3D animation so hey, take it with a pinch of salt if you want!
     
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  2. Andar

    Andar Veteran Veteran

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    you're wrong - animation like that is only easy if you have an existing model with everything.
    Creating that model is a lot more work compared to 2D work, and requires a lot more different skills as well.
     
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  3. Arisa

    Arisa probably dead Veteran

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    I agree with @Andar making a model even with assets right in front of you is no joke.... 2D is easier for sure.
     
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  4. Amarok

    Amarok Veteran Veteran

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    it also depends a lot on the art style you are animating, making small sprites like the ones in the rtp may be definitely easier, but drawing all sprites for all characters in a game in all directions with a more complex style? good luck with that.

    The big advantage of 3d in that regard is that you can create X animations and all your models can potentially share the same animation, then you just render the same thing from all the angles needed, what would take you months can be done in a couple hours, just to put an example.

    But indeed, learning all the software and developing all the skills needed to make 3d requires a considerable amount of time, so as i much as i would love to see some kind of 3d oriented rpg maker i dont see it hapening any time soon.
     
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  5. BadMinotaur

    BadMinotaur You can do it! Veteran

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    @Amarok hit the nail on the head -- animation sharing is one of the greatest advantages of working in 3D. Your humanoids can all share animations, most of your four-legged creations can share animations, etc. A fun minigame to play when you're in a 3D game is to try and pick out which enemies/characters/etc share animations. You'd be surprised how much is constantly re-used in the animation department.

    About model creation -- it probably looks difficult to us 2D artists, but to dedicated practitioners of 3D modeling it's probably as easy as making a detailed 2D sprite with animations.

    I think the actual challenge in a 3D RPG Maker engine would be battle animations, of all things. Modeling and texturing custom animations and effects like that can get kind of complicated if you don't have a good system for manipulating it in place. I think camera manipulation via events on the map screens would also get kind of weird if you don't present it correctly.

    Custom battle systems would also probably be a huge pain to create, because then you have that troublesome Z-axis to worry about.

    Don't get me wrong -- I'm rosy about the idea, but developing a 3D RPG Maker would prolly not be in Kadokawa's best interests. As @Andar pointed out, it takes a significantly different type of asset creation workflow, and all their eggs are in 2D. Combine that with (again, as Andar mentioned) the probably niche audience it would garner, and it's probably not worth the investment.

    I just think it's fun to take the idea and see how you could do it anyway, as unlikely as it would be =)
     
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  6. overlordmikey

    overlordmikey BroCo. Gaming Veteran

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  7. BCj

    BCj Veteran Veteran

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    Wasn't there a 3d rpg maker on the playstation? I remember owning one. It was horrible, though.
     
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  8. Seacliff

    Seacliff RPG Maker Mastermind Veteran

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    Smile Game maker is a thing, I guess. Anything that's 3D RPG Maker is from a completely separate developer.

    A lot of people in the community already explained the issues and convolutions that come with 3D. Like, a lot in the past. Long story short: It's definitely possible, but it defeats the purpose of not only making the engine easy to approach, but also easy to expand on.
     
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  9. BadMinotaur

    BadMinotaur You can do it! Veteran

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    I downloaded the trial for Smile after seeing this thread. Its map editor is phenomenal; but everywhere else its lack of customization falls really short. I think if they allowed better customization of the non-map assets (and allowed scripts...) it could be a viable contender in the game-making field. As it is though, it feels like it's just an expensive toy.
     
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  10. CleanWater

    CleanWater Independent Developer Veteran

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    Well... It doesn't matter how much everyone here advocates against a 3D RPG Maker, I still think it would be viable.

    I understand Degica logistic point of view, I personally agree with them and I would do the same actually, but I really think that an editor with the following features would be easy and affordable to use (even for commercial projects).
    1. 3D models RTP
    2. 2D RTP (for 2.5D games such as Final Fantasy Tactics, Breath of Fire IV and similars)
    3. 3D character creator (in the same style of RMMV character creator)
    4. Editor with options to change colors and some basic size/form manipulation (for imported 3D models)
    5. Top-Down 3D Map editor (using RTP or imported 3D models)
    6. Events editor (just like in any 2D RM)
    7. Custom resources import
    8. Javascript import/editor
    9. At least 2 pre-made camera views options for towns/dungeons, world map and battle screens (3rd person and isometric)
    10. .EXE Game export (at least for Windows, if Mac and Linux exports aren't viable)
    To make it short. I never played PS2 RPG Maker 3, but I probably would invest in a improved PC version of this software to make my own 3D rpgs for PC.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
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  11. BadMinotaur

    BadMinotaur You can do it! Veteran

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    It's definitely not an insurmountable challenge, but it does come with many risks. I'd wager that many think 3D is too difficult because of engines like Unity, which are marketed as newb-friendly but are really not. Unity expects you to know about rendering pipelines and shaders and meshes and all of that good stuff. I don't think a beginner 3D engine should make the user concerned with all of that unless they want to be. It would be like if RPG Maker was just a loose collection of PixiJS function calls, and they expected users to put together an RPG on that alone.

    But as Smile shows, you can simplify things and make an easy-to-use product out of it. They erred a little too much on the simplification side, but it does show off the potential of a 3D RPG Maker-style program.
     
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  12. kaukusaki

    kaukusaki Awesome Programmer Extraordinaire Veteran

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    I liked rpgmaker 3 not as cute as 2 tho...
    3d rpg maker is a nice concept but the dlc would be expensive af and if you're trying to rig your own assets it might break something. (Im bad at 3d modelling. I know how but my models always break. I been at it 12 years and still can't get it working right ugh dayum z axis and something poking through).
    2d isn't difficult and i can see why they still support it.
    The closest to 3d i use are models on the 2d plane and they're usually sprites used in iso environments lol
    Close enough...
     
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  13. goddialga

    goddialga Veteran Veteran

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    I would like a 3D RPG Maker as well! Maybe it would be at least look like Smile Game Builder but more flexible.
     
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  14. ShinGamix

    ShinGamix DS Style 4Ever! Veteran

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    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
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  15. jayray

    jayray Jay Ray Games and Art Design- Oklahoma City, OK Veteran

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    Also, for those who were talking about a certain "smiling" game development software, would say it's actually improved a lot lately. With the addition of common events, better lighting support and FBX support for even older FBX files, in addition to the ability to export and contiue the project IN Unity? Hands down... Degica needs to just approach these guys, and get this engine... it could easily be edited, augmented and become the first true RPG Maker 3d for PC.

    I personally fell in LOVE with it when I first saw it, and thought seriously to myself. "This is what we've been BEGGING Degica/Enterbrain to do for a decade!"
     
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  16. sabao

    sabao Veteran Veteran

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    3D animation uses skeletal animation, which you can actually already do with 2D sprites. This method has been in use for a while now, one of the more notable games that use the technique being basically most of Vanillaware's library. Certain segments of the character have to be redrawn at some points, but overall this saves animator the hassle of redrawing the entire thing every frame.

     
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  17. Amarok

    Amarok Veteran Veteran

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    Oh i know that method, its certainly way faster than regular 2d, still slower than 3d (again, depending on the art style), since you still need to draw and animate each new part of the model for every animation/angle, whereas with 3d changing angle and animation is usually 1 click away if you are doing things right.
     
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  18. Rukiri

    Rukiri I like to make Action-RPGs Veteran

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    Godot while closer to Unity is probably going to be the closest thing you'll get to RPG Maker and user friendliness.
    It's 3D support with 3.0 is actually pretty good, not on the level of Unreal or Unity... but still very impressive with the new render engine and only to get better in the future.

    A 3D RPG Maker just... isn't practical.

    If you really want to do 3D than go try:
    - Godot
    - Unity
    - Unreal
    - Cryengine (Brought PCs to their knees for years after Crysis was released! Really wasn't until a few years later that people could run the game at 1080p maxed out and that was still using sli or crossfire)
     
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  19. fizzly

    fizzly Veteran Veteran

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    That was pain in ass... So time-consuming creating games in RM2. But played Harvest Moon-style game created in this, was really nice! I hope Smile Game Builder will be more flexible and customizable in later builds.
     
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  20. JosephSeraph

    JosephSeraph White Mage Restaff

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    A lot of people have literally stated Smile Game Builder though, which is exactly that: A practical, 3D RPG Maker.
    It's problems stem not from the nature of a 3D game maker, but rather by the extreme inflexibility of the engine.
    I fully trust that were KADOKAWA to look at their own console 3D RPG Makers and import its mapping system to a PC RM, while keeping the Ace /MV database/eventing + scripting, they'd do a wonderful job.
     
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