A Battle system that isn't just based on numbers.

[Darrelde]

Ok so, I'm working on a game with a exact number of enemies (no random encounters),

I'm not a big fan of games battle systems that you grind xp and one shoot the boss

Do you have any Idea for a battle system that isn't just number based?

 

[Milennin]

My most recent game is sort of like that. It only has a set number of encounters before you face the final boss. Each encounter adds one level to the party, but levels don't up the numbers by a whole lot.

What's nice about it is that you can much more easily fine-tune encounters to be challenging, but not unfairly so, because it lets you determine the power level of the player at any given point. Since the game isn't designed around letting the player become vastly more powerful through numbers, the challenge should be coming from finding out the most effective ways to use characters' skills in combat to overcome the enemies.

 

[gstv87]

Do you have any Idea for a battle system that isn't just number based?

it's a computer game.
*everything* about it, is numbers.


even if you come up with an almost completely luck-based system, like the casino, probabilities and validations are still numbers.

I believe what you need is to adjust the turn processing routine, so that it calculates damage based on things not related to the player's level.
that way, even if you level up, your level doesn't affect the outcome of the battle (except when you tie skill and items unlocks to the player level, those items and skills are by definition proportionally powerful, otherwise there's no point for the whole system)

 

[bgillisp]

I'd be really careful with any such system though. The problem you can run into with such a system is you give the player no way to get around the challenge if they cannot figure out the way to defeat the boss you placed. Just be sure the ideal way to beat a boss doesn't require the player to become mind readers.

You see, in a traditional system, the player always has a way out. They can, if they cannot figure out the trick to beating a boss, always grind more levels. By doing what you suggest, you are forcing the player into one way to defeat the boss. And if not done well, you will get players who will rage quit in your game.

 

[CleanWater]

Don't make leveling up so easy or rewardable. This way all the enemies always will pose a treat.

 

[Tai_MT]

Okay, I'm going to make two different observations here, since your title and the content of your post are a little different. I don't know if it'll help you, but I'll try my best here.

A battle system not based on numbers.
It's possible to create a battle system where you don't use numerical values in combat what-so-ever. For example, you could make enemies resist every single thing you throw at them... Except something with the correct element. You can't kill the water elemental in any way... except with a thunder spell. Uses of that spell to get the kill will depend on you (though, to continue using no numbers, you'd have to make any correct usage of the skill result in the instant-death of an enemy). I've known a few games to try stuff like this out. It usually ends in a mediocre battle system, but maybe someone can make it work at some point. You also run into a lot of "this is the only way to beat this encounter" type stuff, which leaves many players feeling frustrated for not figuring it out... or bored that there's only a single solution and they're not allowed to act on their own.

Battle systems where you can't grind for XP and one shot the boss.
This is actually a fairly fun thing to try to accomplish in a game. There's lots of ways to do it. Many people go with "limited encounters". Some people decide to try to design a combat system that actually requires the use of buffs and debuffs and states in order to win, instead of just sheer amount of stats (it's very easy to script combat in order to punish players just hitting with specific types or skills). These two methods are the most common ways to get rid of that XP grind. I've also seen a system in which stats never moved except when you equipped new weapons or armors. Monsters dropped your equipment (and in one case, just crafting materials instead), and you had to use that to get stronger. I didn't find the one with crafting in it fun (I loathe crafting systems, but that's a discussion for another day), I rather liked the one where you simply got new equipment based on the story giving it to you or monsters dropping it, and then having to use that to buff your stats (Borderlands 1 and 2 are more modern takes on such a system).

I'm going to toot my own horn now for a moment, because I have two separate systems in two separate games that seek to do just that now. In my main game, you gain levels, but the levels only unlock things on the map (mostly shortcuts, sometimes new vendors, sometimes quests) and you only get stats in two ways: Equipment you purchase/find and completing Quests. Every Quest a player completes nets them an item (or two, or whatever) which can be used on any party member to raise a specific stat by a specific amount. You can still grind for gold and monster drops if you want, but it doesn't really directly lead into power (so grinding to beat a boss doesn't really happen). However, this system was immensely complicated to set up and relies very heavily on being able to create enough Quests and stories so that a player doesn't feel like doing Quests instead is just the same as grinding monsters... except takes a crapload longer. While it's currently working, at some point I might actually run out of ideas, and then I'll be in trouble for getting players to take Quests and not feel bored. So, huge downside to trying it this way.

My second system in a new game (okay, it's not really being worked on, but it's a mesh of ideas and story concepts at the moment. Work on it will start when I complete my demo for my main game) is one in which there's no money what-so-ever. Instead, players pay for everything with XP. Want a potion? 25XP. Want an antidote? 50XP. Want to learn a new Skill? 200XP. Want a new weapon or armor piece? 150XP. Sure, you can still grind XP and gain levels. The levels again, do nothing to gain you power (instead, they unlock new shops where you can buy new things with your XP). But, if you grind for that XP, it doesn't immediately result in more power. You need to come back to towns to get that power. Want +3 Attack? 100XP per point of ATK. You can level up in a long dungeon, but you won't get power from it. Sure, those enemies in that dungeon may give a lot of XP, but you still have to trek back to a shop, back to a town, back to a vendor of some kind, in order to trade that XP in for your delicious... delicious... super delicious... stat gains. Even more fun is that shops just don't upgrade their wares. Levels grant access to new shops, which have better wares. Maybe those shops are over the mountains you need to trek across in order to use them. Grind for levels, grind for XP, but you're only going to be able to do so much "grind" before a boss. It's a system that promotes grind in new areas until you get the new loot... then discourages grind once you've got all the new loot.

Anyway, that's my very long two cents. Not sure if it helps you, but maybe it helped spark an idea of your own. Maybe you can come up with something cool the rest of us haven't seen. I'm always excited to see new systems in RPGs. Especially from users of these forums.

 

[ShadowHawkDragon]

I'm actually working on a game with the same sort of idea. My current plan is for battles not to be random but instead selected out of a menu (sorta like a coliseum). The main part is that the player will only ever need to beat about half of the battles to move on to the next section. Meaning its their choice whether to do the bare minimum for a challenging 'end-of-section boss' or do them all to make it easier.

But honestly, its still going to come down to numbers as long as you maintain basic 'battle design'. It doesn't matter how frequent the battles are or even if they're one offs; if you don't design the battles to be anything other than number bashers, that's all they'll be. The key is adding strategy which flows mostly around the same basic tools given to the player at any one stage of the game (Defending vs super-attacks, weak attacks which pierce defences, etc.)

Cooldowns are one way of doing this. That boss uses its super attack every third turn but one of your characters will die if hit again by its minions: do you use that super defence with a 2 turn cooldown one turn early? or do you focus the boss's minions in an attempt to kill them first? Maybe you just go for the boss anyway, you'll plan to revive them after the super attack. But your revive skill also has a 5 turn cooldown that will overlap the next super attack...

Overall back to main thing at hand, even with battle design in mind its important to give the players a 'way out'. Even if battles are meant to be limited you should have excess optional battles which are easily avoided and unnecessary but will allow struggling players a chance to scrape up every ounce of exp, maybe give out some useful items/equipment if these optional fights are beaten. Also consider multiple paths to reach the next section, that way if the player is stuck on one path they can try taking another.

 

[lianderson]

You can make the battles dialogue based. Like, you play as a pacifist who uses knowledge and persuasion to win or diffuse the situation.

That said, your writing better be good.

 

[gstv87]

You can make the battles dialogue based. Like, you play as a pacifist who uses knowledge and persuasion to win or diffuse the situation.

That said, your writing better be good.

that wouldn't work as good, unless the game is entirely like that, like an oldschool graphic adventure.
it can be *part* of the gameplay though.... like, using it to decide whether or not you go into a battle.
I've never seen a dialogue-as-battle-action game, except maybe the Ace Attorney series.

 

[Henryetha]

Don't make leveling up so easy or rewardable. This way all the enemies always will pose a treat.

Ummm a level up SHOULD be rewarding. The player after all shall feel to have accomplished something.
Enemies can be adapted to that.
Or you simply let the enemies level with the player, as yanfly's plugin enemy levels does it.

 

[lianderson]

Yeah, it would have to be something like ace attorney or undertale without shown hp. Tbh, I´m a numbers guy. I´m all about tactics, builds, and leveling up, so this is alien to me. It´s borderline impossible without an emphasis on good writing.

As for levels being rewarding, there's some truth to that. But enemies leveling up when you do is not a good method. It´s actually counter intuitive. What's the point of leveling up if they level up too?

Personally, I use enemy technology. All enemies in my game slowly level up through the passage of time, and doing certain things will either slow this or dial them back.

 

[bgillisp]

Ummm a level up SHOULD be rewarding. The player after all shall feel to have accomplished something.

Seconded. They have found, via studies, that making leveling rewarding is part of what makes people want to keep playing your game. So if you take that away, you are losing some of what makes people want to keep going on. This is also why MMO's give you quite a few levels quick and early, then slow down the progression rate from there, so you can experience the thrill of a few level ups for yourself, and want to keep going.

Or you simply let the enemies level with the player, as yanfly's plugin enemy levels does it.

I hate that procedure in games. What's the point in leveling up if the enemies are going to just level up with me to match me? Might as well play the game at level 1 then.

 

[Tai_MT]

Seconded. They have found, via studies, that making leveling rewarding is part of what makes people want to keep playing your game. So if you take that away, you are losing some of what makes people want to keep going on. This is also why MMO's give you quite a few levels quick and early, then slow down the progression rate from there, so you can experience the thrill of a few level ups for yourself, and want to keep going.

I agree with this up to a point. However, I feel most MMOs and other games handle level up in the most boring way possible. The way in which I don't care if I gain a level or not: I don't get to make a choice for my character during a level up. Leveling up ceases to be meaningful or interesting when you get nothing out of it except a random set of stats you have no control over. A traditional RPG gives you a set amount of stats and maybe a new Skill at level up. I don't find this interesting or exciting at all. Even Earthbound had the good sense to tie on features to the back-end of the level up system (low level monsters run away from you, which feels FANTASTIC as a player).

Personally, I like distributing skillpoints or picking a skill from a list (I love skill trees ). I find these reasons the exciting ones for me to gain levels. Games where I'll just eventually have all the skills don't excite me when it comes to level up, because at that point, you may as well not give me a choice in what I want. Games where I can't distribute my own stats is just one more way in which I don't have autonomy over my characters, playstyle, or combat in general.

But, maybe I've just played too many RPGs in my 26 years of gaming. For me, a level up is really only exciting if I get to do something with that level up. If it's just a meaningless number that gives me more meaningless numbers that somehow make me stronger, why would I want to do it? It just leads me to grind to make those artificial numbers go up beyond what the devs intended so I can steamroll the bosses.

However, if it gives me options, like in D&D Tabletops... Where a level is exciting because I get to break out the book and decide what I want to do with my character... What stats I want to take... decide if I want to take the average HP or chance rolling my HP in hopes I get better than average... or take a Feat... or get a couple stat points to distribute... Or maybe choose some skills from a list... or choose a path for my profession... I find every single level quite exciting at that point. What can I do next? How can I build my character at next level? How can I be more effective in combat?

That's what makes leveling up exciting to me.

Even Pokémon takes advantage of this, with lots of its Pokémon earning their evolutions upon level up. That makes leveling up exciting!

I hate that procedure in games. What's the point in leveling up if the enemies are going to just level up with me to match me? Might as well play the game at level 1 then.

I agree. I don't like when monsters level up with me. It makes low-level speedruns pretty much the norm, since you're no better off at level 100 than you were at level 1.

The sole exception I have to this is that NEW monsters show up at higher levels (Fallout 4 does this to a degree). When new monsters show up, it at least feels like a fresh challenge... something you've not yet faced. Plus, the low level monsters don't go away and you can still stomp them into a fine red paste if you want to. I like those systems.

 

[bgillisp]

I'd actually not heard of a game adding new monsters at higher levels until now, but that is not a bad idea! I guess in a way I've been kinda doing this in my game, where if you are *way* overleveled, the monsters run away from you (I use visual encounters, so instead of them coming after you, they try to keep their distance or move away. But, if you still want to fight them, you can corner them and force an encounter). And, at certain plot points when it is safe to assume you are higher level, I've been making higher level monsters appear. But no level scaling. If you are high enough level to curb stomp the monster into pieces, well, enjoy curb stomping them.

 

[Henryetha]

What's the point of leveling up if they level up too?

I've been thinking about that too and I think it depends highly on the game self.

In a typical MMORPG it usually won't make much sense, starting yet by farming certain items you want to become stronger for faster item grind.
And by saying grind.. grinding is - more or less - typical for many mmorpgs, so sudden increase of difficulty is sometimes also part of it, when it just tells the player 'time to get stronger before further processing'.

Then again in an ARPG you might get bored fast if enemies suddenly become too weak. But the game mechanic in an arpg is different aswell, as enemy's drops often change too, within the enemies.

In a linear story-based RPG (where the primary focus is to play through the story) I think, enemy levels is a way to make devs life easier. I mean.. when the player just plays through it, you usually want to avoid having him to grind (in case enemies become too strong). I think that's so far the main reason to use enemy levels. Even more, when you include many optional side content which give exp... It will be very hard to make the majority of the player base happy, as everyone plays the game different.
As for What's the point.. more unlocked skills, more possibilities, more flashy animations and more fun - I'd spontaniously say.
If you need some level-based challenge, you could create extzra content which can be unlocked at certain levels.. like some minigames.. or better equip (which will make you more powerful towards enemies still, so despite them leveling with you, you'll still feel an increase of power while fighting them)

 

[bgillisp]

Then again in an ARPG you might get bored fast if enemies suddenly become too weak. But the game mechanic in an arpg is different aswell, as enemy's drops often change too, within the enemies.

You see, I don't think that is true. I've played ARPG's, and it is still fun to eventually get powerful enough to go past the enemies. In fact, almost every game I've played that leveled up the enemies with me, I got bored of the random fights as they were just an endless slog which never got better or faster with time.

As for What's the point.. more unlocked skills, more possibilities, more flashy animations and more fun

But what's the point in having higher level skills if it still takes 3 uses of said skill to kill an enemy which took 3 uses of the earlier skill before I leveled up?

Now, you can probably make it still work, but I'd be careful of just blanket saying add the ability for enemies to level up with you. It's been misused way too much in the past and I think devs need to take a hard look at how to implement it, or if they should implement it at all.

 

[Tai_MT]

In a linear story-based RPG (where the primary focus is to play through the story) I think, enemy levels is a way to make devs life easier. I mean.. when the player just plays through it, you usually want to avoid having him to grind (in case enemies become too strong). I think that's so far the main reason to use enemy levels. Even more, when you include many optional side content which give exp... It will be very hard to make the majority of the player base happy, as everyone plays the game different.

I've never considered it a good thing for a dev to have their job be easy... or for them to be lazy. Even doing the dev things I am doing, I feel these are cheap cop-outs and a good way to get a mediocre or just outright terrible game. Making a good game is time consuming. Making a good game is difficult. It shouldn't be easy. Good things come with time and skill.

That being said, I really don't think it's much harder to just invent new monsters to increase the challenge instead of leveling the old ones. I mean one method speaks to the dev's creative bankruptcy, and the other method speaks to the dev wanting to give more content that is a steady climb of challenge for the player. One method ensures that the player never really gains power... even against the monsters they fought in the first dungeon of the game... The other method ensures that there's a clear increase to the player in their own power growth, which indicates your game isn't a treadmill, but a mountain to be climbed.

As for What's the point.. more unlocked skills, more possibilities, more flashy animations and more fun - I'd spontaniously say.
If you need some level-based challenge, you could create extzra content which can be unlocked at certain levels.. like some minigames.. or better equip (which will make you more powerful towards enemies still, so despite them leveling with you, you'll still feel an increase of power while fighting them)

Fallout 4 has this problem against some of the monsters. They level with you up to an extent and then they have the "new version" of said monster drop with its own unique look to give you a new challenge. It feels very unsatisfying to max out your shotgun and all related perks to it... and then suddenly you're fighting a level 68 monster (despite being level 98) and it takes about 6 or more shotgun shells to put down. That's not fun. That's not interesting. That's a waste of my time for a paltry amount of XP. That's a waste of my resources for a paltry amount of XP and a useless amount of loot. Even worse is that Molotov Cocktails are one of the best grenades in the early game. You can lay waste to almost anyone with them early on. At later levels? Worst. Grenade. Ever. Frag Grenades and Frag Mines suffer the same fate. Bottlecap Mines too. Plasma Grenades and Mines suffer that same fate much later on. It isn't until you get some DLC and get access to Nuke Grenades and Nuka Grenades that grenades become USEFUL again. That's what happens when you just level things up alongside the player. It becomes a slog. A grind. A pointless waste of time and effort.

New drops on those monsters don't even help. Oh look, it drops more money now. Something I haven't needed since I was level 10. Oh look, it drops more crafting materials, also something I haven't needed since level 10. It drops better restoratives, now I really don't need to spend the money it is pointlessly giving me. Oh, it maybe has a chance to drop equipment! Equipment drops, which I will need, a grand total of once. Or, maybe four times, depending on who can equip what. And then that drop becomes pointless. Oh, but a monster that gains levels can give you more XP for your effort! Except... I've never seen a dev balance that out properly. If the level 1 monster drops 10 XP to me at level 1 and I need 100 XP to gain a level, that means I have to fight it ten times. Okay, same monster is now level 100 and drops 1000 XP to me at level 100... Except... now I need 35,000 XP to gain a level. That means, I now have to fight this same monster 35 times minimum to gain a level. I don't want to do that.

As for gaining new skills... It's hard to justify gaining new skills on the treadmill. Most of the time, the new skills just obsolete the old ones and take up space in your Skills list. Even worse, is that these new skills end up needing to be cast just as many times as the old ones did against the low level enemies... on the high level enemies. Without a way to go back and rofl-stomp low level enemies with your Level 10 Giga-Flare, it isn't going to feel like you've gained any power at all. It's going to feel like you're very much on rails and only doing what the dev has carefully plotted out for you to do.

My design philosophy has always been, "why not just try to make this fun?". I've never once thought that forcing the player to play my game a certain specific way, was a way to get to fun. Whether that's grinding, having to engage in mini-games, having to engage in crafting, punishing them for using magic, punishing them for using Inns or items, or even punishing them for just mashing "Attack" during combat. I'd rather incentivize the behavior I want from a player by making that behavior more fun than the alternative.

I like fun level up systems. For me, that fun comes in deciding what to do with your character when they level up. It also comes from being noticeably stronger than previous enemies. If they run away from you, that's awesome. If you can now smash 'em in a single hit, also awesome. If you can defeat them without seeing a battle screen, also awesome. It's a testament to your power and a testament that the game dev respects the player's time.

I just don't find "treadmill" type level up systems very fun in RPGs. Because, it becomes "I must have all the best equipment at all times just to maintain my slight edge in combat". It forces the player to find every sidequest, complete every sidequest, obtain all the best loot they can, just so they can maintain that slight edge. It's a system that promotes Min/Maxing. Which, is fine, if that's your design philosophy. But, I don't think a lot of people play an RPG to spend time Min/Maxing their characters.

 

[Henryetha]

I've never considered it a good thing for a dev to have their job be easy... or for them to be lazy. Even doing the dev things I am doing, I feel these are cheap cop-outs and a good way to get a mediocre or just outright terrible game. Making a good game is time consuming. Making a good game is difficult. It shouldn't be easy. Good things come with time and skill.

Well, I assumed you'd understand what I mean.. but you obviously think, my thought would be, to put less effort on cost of the game quality.
Why only see things black and white?
There are so many games, each one different, all I say is, it depends on the game.

When I say 'is a way to make devs life easier' then FOR SURE I don't mean by it, make a crappy game so the dev won't need to put effort.
A simple example to show well, what I mean by it, when I am stating such thing:
When you have a dishwasher, you can use it to make ur life easier.
However, you won't use it on plates which are not dishwasher safe, because they might get loss in quality.

So with game making.
If your game is designed to get a quality loss when you use that enemy level system, then better you don't do it.
If it's not hurting your actual game (for what reason ever), then it's pretty inefficient to bother with it while you could focus on other stuff which actually DO matter in your game.

And setting priorities calling "lazy" is pretty narrow minded and ignorant.
I'm sorry if this sounds offending, but it's not like "or for them to be lazy" wouldn't be some kind of offense when you generally say this without even knowing other peoples' projects.
Myself I have 1266 hours alone recorded on steam - not counting the offine working hours. And independent on how many hours other devs have been working so far on their projects, this is still a considerable amount of time. So when I decide now to make my life easier on certain aspects and u call it "lazy", then this is really offending.

You see, I don't think that is true. I've played ARPG's, and it is still fun to eventually get powerful enough to go past the enemies. In fact, almost every game I've played that leveled up the enemies with me, I got bored of the random fights as they were just an endless slog which never got better or faster with time.

I just say.. diablo 3 has scaling enemy levels. Also there some people don't like it. But also there are people who prefer that system.
In D3 you actually want to be max lvl to be able to get the max out of your char (also equip-wise). With the enemies scaling to the players level the player at least can level more freely and decide where to go instead of always following the same route.
A linear lvl route might be interesting at first. But the more characters you make (and with season chars you actually do that quite frequently), the more boring it'll become.
That's why I say, it depends on the game.

Even worse, is that these new skills end up needing to be cast just as many times as the old ones did against the low level enemies... on the high level enemies.

And if this happens, then it IS actually a very bad game design.
To make it clear:
I am not talking about a skill doing an amount of damage being replaced by a skill simply doing the double amount. This is dumb.
Why think of other devs that simple minded? Like there were no other ways for "better skills"?
When a skill adds a DoT or an AoE effect for example, then the killing speed definitely WILL go up, even if monster levels are scaling.....

 

[Tai_MT]

It isn't the "make a dev's life easier" comment that I was referring to. That part is partially out of context. It's the, "having monsters have levels makes the dev's life easier" aspect of things. The only reasonable way this would make it easier on the dev is if that dev is creatively bankrupt to start with. Instead of a new monster in that linear game to fight, with new mechanics, new skills, challenging patterns, or interesting monster pairings... You just take your old monsters, make them higher levels, turn them into "damage sponges" and life is much easier on the dev.

It's easier in the same way a palette swap is easier on an art team.

As for the analogy to the dishwasher... that really just depends. If you have to rinse your dishes before putting them into the washer, are you really making it easier on yourself? May as well wash the dishes at the same time you're rinsing them. If you have to watch which dishes you put into the washer, are you really making things easier on yourself? Could just wash the rest at the same time you're washing the ones that aren't dishwasher safe so you don't have to do the work of loading/unloading a dishwasher once, twice, three times, and having to split the task between two different things in order (which, inevitably, wastes a lot of time). Also, if you only have a few dishes to do, is it really that efficient or cost effective to put them into the dishwasher? If you only have to wash 3 or 4 cups and 2 plates... is it worth running the dishwasher for that? Wasting the time, water, and electricity to do so? The dishwasher is absolutely a tool for making a job get done much faster (well, in most cases it's faster... I've seen ones that take over an hour to wash dishes that I'd have finished in 15 minutes by hand). However, it comes with a lot of stipulations. A lot of variables. Should you use it all the time? No. If you do, you're probably lazy. Or like waiting until you've got dozens of dishes piled up and stinking up the kitchen before you've got enough to warrant using it. It's a tool that should be used on the occasion when it's necessary. When it makes sense. Not just so a person doesn't have to get their hands wet and do a little manual labor.

 

[Henryetha]

Wow... and you do it again...
Have you ever worked in a hotel kitchen at a breakfast buffet?
Now tell them to wash the glasses and coffee cups by hand.
You bring examples out of context.. either you just didn't get at all what I mean or you don't want to get it.
"When you have a dishwasher, you CAN use it to make ur life easier"
How is this so misleading??

"Not just so a person doesn't have to get their hands wet and do a little manual labor."
Really, I'd prefer that IF you respond me, you'd respond to what I've actually written. Because this is NOT what I've written.

Instead of a new monster in that linear game to fight, with new mechanics, new skills, challenging patterns, or interesting monster pairings... You just take your old monsters, make them higher levels, turn them into "damage sponges" and life is much easier on the dev.

How you get such an idea?
Who told, the same monsters??
Who said, the scaling monsters can't have new mechanics, new skills, etc etc etc?
You seriously thought I was talking about creating 1-2 monsters and set them everywhere, relying on the level scaling solely?
Because this is what your statement sounds like.