A Battle system that isn't just based on numbers.

djDarkX

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Guys, please be civil. Pretty sure the OP doesn't want their thread locked.

As for a system that has a limited amount of mobs to fight before a boss, check out Soul Blazer. There, you had areas where you had to clear out a certain amount of monsters to progress or get certain items needed. All the while, you gained experience. However, this was an Action RPG, one which I very much enjoy playing, but you can do away with the leveling aspect and still get a good experience if done right. If you didn't clear out the monsters and left the area, they wouldn't respawn and any progress you made was saved in each area. Was good to not make the game a pain to play and beat.

The same can be done with a normal RPG. Just have a counter on the map that checks for battles fought and once it reaches the cap in each area/map, turn off random encounters in that area and you're good to go.

Not sure it can be done by default in any of the makers through the editor, but I'm sure a plugin can be made for that.
 

Tai_MT

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Nope, never worked at a hotel kitchen or breakfast buffet. But, I've worked in a restaurant before. You know what they don't really use? Dishwashers. You tend to get a pressure washer, because it's more efficient, takes less time, and lets you turn around used dishes much more quickly. I could see a hotel using dishwashers though. They only have to serve 3 meals a day at designated times of the day. They've absolutely got time to spare in throwing everything in a dishwasher and waiting for it to finish.

However, I was talking about dishwashers in a home environment. But, it applies to most restaurants as well. Much faster to hit the dishes with a pressure washer and hand scrubbing than to throw it into a machine and wait for it to finish. Especially with the expectation that you must serve anyone who walks in at any time. In a home environment, the only reason to use the dishwasher for absolutely every single situation is because you don't want to get your hands wet or do a little manual labor. It's extrapolation of a concept and of common human behavior. It isn't linked to any particular thing you've said. It's linked to the idea and concepts behind what you're saying. The things you're talking about and explaining.

The entire concept of increasing the level of a monster is two-fold in game design. 1. It exists for the same reason a palette swap does in that you don't really have to pay for a lot of art (or you can't) and it's a means of saving some money in your budget. You have to pay artists less for 12 monsters you just "level up" alongside the player than you do for 200+ monsters that scale in difficulty as the player progresses in the game. 2. It saves the game mechanics design team a lot of effort in programming new skills, states, enemy patterns, enemy tells, programming tactics, programming a lot of troops, etcetera. It's a means of being lazy in the development process of a game.

You don't have to say, "use the same monsters", because that's what leveling up monsters already is. It's inherent to the concept. You cannot level up the monsters and have them be different monsters. Does it really matter if the Demon King at the end of the game is Level 295 while the Bunnies at the beginning were Level 1? Nope. The only way that level matters at all in monster design is if it's the same monsters, again and again, with a new Level. What's the difference between a Level 295 Bunny and a Level 1 Bunny? I'd wager there's a pretty large difference in their power and how many hits they can take... But probably not much else. Back to the initial sentences of this paragraph: The reason you cannot level up the monster and have them be different monsters is because it defeats the point of either concept. If you're creating new monsters, it is wholly unnecessary to give them levels at all. Their stats are where they derive their power, and a player already knows that later in the game, the monsters are going to be more powerful by default. Giving said monsters a level is rendered "pointless busywork" for a dev. If you're not creating new monsters and instead are just scaling up old ones, then is there really a need to create a lot of monsters? Do you really need 100 monsters from Level 1 to Level 100? Don't you think that's excessive? Do you think most devs would say, "I really only need like 20 monsters that exist from Level 1 to Level 100". I mean, that's 2000 monsters right there. Even though it's only technically 20.

As for giving old monsters new skills... I just don't understand from a dev's standpoint why they'd do that. If you're going to give them new skills and new mechanics... Why not just make them entirely new monsters on top of that? Change up their sprite or name? Relatively simple thing to do since they're now operating under different mechanics, more skills... different skills... etcetera. To change everything about a monster and then continue to call it the same name it is... is kind of weird. Even Fallout 4 names the higher leveled enemies something new. Deathclaw, Glowing Deathclaw, Deathclaw Matriarch, etcetera. But, these are all wholly new monsters... with different stats... and the same move archetypes. If a Bunny at Level 1 can only Bite me, but a Bunny at level 25 is suddenly spewing fire at me... I think that should require renaming the creature, making a new sprite with it (or at least swapping its color) and turning it into it's own monster.

I have no doubt that leveling monsters alongside the player can be useful in some instances, or provided certain game mechanics. It's just that, I, personally, haven't seen this done "well". It tends to turn the concept of just gaining a level into a perpetual slog... a deterrent for actually gaining levels. After all, is it more sensible to leave all the enemies at Level 1 and get the +1 Infinity Sword to slaughter all the Level 1 bosses... Or is it more sensible to rapidly gain as many levels as possible, make the game more difficult as you do so, and get equipment just to keep that "slight edge" you've got on the enemies all at your own level?

Leveling enemies alongside the player simply promotes "rushing" the game and "skipping" battles. The more battles you skip and the better loot you equip, the more powerful you are against the low level monsters. Playing an RPG normally where enemies level alongside the player usually turns the game into a grind-fest or a dull chore. Especially when the tactics for dealing with said monsters doesn't really change from level to level.
 

Henryetha

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Well, I've worked in a hotel and they used a dishwasher.
Maybe see, not everywhere is the same for everything.
What might work at one place, doesn't work in another.
I've also been working in a restaurant and yes, they use pressure water. In the hotel you wouldn't have had time for this when the room is full of 200 people who want to take their breakfast in time.. so you just leave the machine doing the job alone -> while keep working on other stuff.
So once again... every situation is different. Every game is different.
Sth what is efficient in one environment, won't work in another.
About home environment.. can be or not. Myself I don't use a dishwasher but can imagine, at times it can be efficient aswell, like when you are a big family and don't have time for hand washing everything. However, it's hardly relevant aswell, as it is still dependend on the situation - just as I'm saying all the time... again and again and again.

You don't have to say, "use the same monsters", because that's what leveling up monsters already is. It's inherent to the concept. You cannot level up the monsters and have them be different monsters.
It kinda seems to me, you're totally misunderstanding it.
Let's say, you don't use enemy levels.. then you might have on map 1 the weak lvl 1-5 monsters, map 2 some lvl 5-15 monsters, map 3 lvl 15-25 monsters. They don't only have different levels but also different mechanics and stats. (example very simplified!!) - as your character progresses, monsters stay the same. However, assuming you have different monsters on map 1, 2 and 3. So once the character is lvl 25, he can beat all the monsters, however, on map 1 he will probably one-hit them (or if designed so, maybe even skip the battles entirely).however, if the player went through map 2 and only is lvl 10, he might get in trouble if advancing further. So assuming the player just isn't able to find any optional quests etc aswell.. (not saying, they were not implemented, but also not every player is a "good player") what else is left? Grinding. And as long you don't intent to create a game which grinding is supposed to be a part, then it's a bad idea.
Now the other example WITH enemy levels.. again you have 3 maps, player progresses from map 1 to 3. Monster levels scale with the player. Still they have different mechanics, different skills, different base stats. You actually can set the base stats and configure also their increase rate. You CAN make some monsters more tanky, while make others based on MAT. You can give a poison skill to the one monster while giving life leech to another. You can make them encounte rin groups of 2 or in groups of 4. You can mix and match different types of enemies - nothing keeps you from it. All that enemy levels does, is increasing their stats based on their level which scales with the player level. Even there you can choose to have a range of levels (like -5 /+5) and choose to have more varity instead of having every enemy "static" staying the same.
The difference which does player's skill- and equip gain usually is still high enough to notice some increase of power - except you configure it in another way. Because you CAN configure it.

You CAN configure it the way, that the player indeed has to get better equip to keep up with monsters at all (and there are game designs where it makes sense, like when you base them on being hard survival)
You can also configure it in a way, that monsters only get so far stronger, so you're at the same strength level being unequipped, but any additional equip, buff or other stat increase will give you an advantage over the monster. Why is this important? Because of this it is still worth to gain higher levels and this way get access to new items (and new areas, except it is an open world game). This also can prevent the player from only relying on a higher level and ignore equips, equip upgrades, stat buff food or w/e is implemented in the game.
But maybe you just have yet to see enemy levels properly implemented.
 
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lianderson

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Correct or incorrect, this whole enemy leveling up topic doesn't help the OP. :(
 
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bgillisp

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I think the reason we ended up on leveling up enemies was in response to this post by the OP:

Ok so, I'm working on a game with a exact number of enemies (no random encounters),
So, in response to the two topics being discussed here

About enemy levels:
I'm still not a fan, because I have yet to see a developer implement them well. Even AAA games can't seem to get it right. So, what makes you think you are going to either? So I myself would recommend not using them just for that reason. We can debate the 'merits' of it until we are blue in the face, but I don't think either side is going to convince the other.

About the OP's post:
I'd recommend not giving just a fixed number of encounters. I actually just played a game this weekend which tried this, and you know what the most common complaint was about the game? The fact that players were maxed up (as in, defeated everything they could) but still couldn't defeat the boss to proceed with the game. So I'd recommend not doing that either, unless you want to field a lot of complaints about people being unable to proceed with your game.
 

Tai_MT

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Well, I've worked in a hotel and they used a dishwasher.
Maybe see, not everywhere is the same for everything.
What might work at one place, doesn't work in another.
I've also been working in a restaurant and yes, they use pressure water. In the hotel you wouldn't have had time for this when the room is full of 200 people who want to take their breakfast in time.. so you just leave the machine doing the job alone -> while keep working on other stuff.
So once again... every situation is different. Every game is different.
Sth what is efficient in one environment, won't work in another.
About home environment.. can be or not. Myself I don't use a dishwasher but can imagine, at times it can be efficient aswell, like when you are a big family and don't have time for hand washing everything. However, it's hardly relevant aswell, as it is still dependend on the situation - just as I'm saying all the time... again and again and again.
Yep, that's exactly what I said the first time. It's exactly what I said the last time. It can be efficient, but there are likewise a lot of times where it may not be efficient at all.

I think it's been you that's not understanding me. We can chalk that up to English not being your first language. Sometimes that language barrier is a pain in the rear.

It kinda seems to me, you're totally misunderstanding it.
Let's say, you don't use enemy levels.. then you might have on map 1 the weak lvl 1-5 monsters, map 2 some lvl 5-15 monsters, map 3 lvl 15-25 monsters. They don't only have different levels but also different mechanics and stats. (example very simplified!!) - as your character progresses, monsters stay the same. However, assuming you have different monsters on map 1, 2 and 3. So once the character is lvl 25, he can beat all the monsters, however, on map 1 he will probably one-hit them (or if designed so, maybe even skip the battles entirely).however, if the player went through map 2 and only is lvl 10, he might get in trouble if advancing further. So assuming the player just isn't able to find any optional quests etc aswell.. (not saying, they were not implemented, but also not every player is a "good player") what else is left? Grinding. And as long you don't intent to create a game which grinding is supposed to be a part, then it's a bad idea.
I still don't understand why in a system without enemy levels... you'd still give the enemies levels. If they're all different enemies, they don't need levels to begin with. They just need the stats to put them on the same footing as the player party. It makes little sense to give the monsters "Levels" in this instance, because it's a wholly pointless stat. Older Final Fantasy games used to give monsters levels because they had skills that worked against specific levels. "Death Level 5" only hit and worked on enemies that were a level multiple of 5. This also made using the "Scan" skill useful (otherwise, there's no need to use it what-so-ever). If you don't use monster levels, then in general, whenever your stats surpass the stats of the monsters in the area... you can probably leave it, because you can beat everything. No need at all for monster levels in that instance. It's just a useless stat you've assigned to a monster for no reason.

When my ATK stat is 200 and the strongest enemy in Map one has a DEF stat of 125, I'm able to steamroll them and move on. It has nothing to do with level and everything to do with stats.

Now the other example WITH enemy levels.. again you have 3 maps, player progresses from map 1 to 3. Monster levels scale with the player. Still they have different mechanics, different skills, different base stats. You actually can set the base stats and configure also their increase rate. You CAN make some monsters more tanky, while make others based on MAT. You can give a poison skill to the one monster while giving life leech to another. You can make them encounte rin groups of 2 or in groups of 4. You can mix and match different types of enemies - nothing keeps you from it. All that enemy levels does, is increasing their stats based on their level which scales with the player level. Even there you can choose to have a range of levels (like -5 /+5) and choose to have more varity instead of having every enemy "static" staying the same.
The difference which does player's skill- and equip gain usually is still high enough to notice some increase of power - except you configure it in another way. Because you CAN configure it.
This still begs the question, "If you're changing the stats, skills, tactics, and mechanics of an enemy, why not just make it an entirely new enemy to begin with? Why reuse the same sprite and the same name?". Which, in turn, begs this question, "If they're changing enough to warrant being called a new monster... Why is there a level up system for the monsters to begin with?".

The problem you're going to run into with such a system is player confusion. "Okay, what's the difference between a Level 5 Rabbit and a Level 6 Rabbit?". You'll run into that a lot. You'll run into players having to personally remember those differences, every single one of them, just to get through that combat. So, if Rabbit Level 6 has a healing skill, but Rabbit Level 5 has a super Biting attack, the player will have to remember that themselves. And, since they look the same... with the same names... That's going to get tricky. It's going to get even more tricky when you have 20 versions of Rabbit and they all have different tactics and skills and mechanics. Players will find that frustrating, even if you tell them up front what level the enemies are.

Even more frustrating... They'll learn lessons on how to deal with one set of leveled enemies... Only to have it no longer apply to the next set of enemies once they gain a level, because those enemies have changed... And there's no way to go back and fight the previously leveled enemies. A standard tank enemy may suddenly turn into a magical tank throwing lightning at you, and you've got to now forget the tactics of dealing with that standard tank, because a magical tank is a whole new beast to deal with altogether.

Still, I've found the best strategies for dealing with systems in which the monsters level up alongside you is to avoid gaining levels at all, rely entirely upon equipment, and then you can steamroll the entire game. It's quite funny to beat such games at Level 10, using only the powerful loot you've found in dungeons. And, since you're picking up healing items and money in chests... you can sell it to buy new equipment in towns. I mean, you won't need the healing items except for fighting bosses (since you're running from all combat to keep your level low). And once you're far enough, you're going to be one or two-shotting every boss in the game with your equipment and their low levels.

You CAN configure it the way, that the player indeed has to get better equip to keep up with monsters at all (and there are game designs where it makes sense, like when you base them on being hard survival)
You can also configure it in a way, that monsters only get so far stronger, so you're at the same strength level being unequipped, but any additional equip, buff or other stat increase will give you an advantage over the monster. Why is this important? Because of this it is still worth to gain higher levels and this way get access to new items (and new areas, except it is an open world game). This also can prevent the player from only relying on a higher level and ignore equips, equip upgrades, stat buff food or w/e is implemented in the game.
But maybe you just have yet to see enemy levels properly implemented.
You're talking about having hard level minimums and maximums on enemies here, which is an entirely different system to enemies leveling up with you. Such a system usually exists to provide "gates" to player entry into certain new areas. It also exists to prevent people like me from steamrolling the entire game at Level 1 or Level 10 by just being clever and avoiding the system that punishes me for gaining levels.

However, such systems also beg the above questions: "Why not just make new monsters for each new area to serve the same "gating" purpose?" And, "Why bother giving the enemies a level at all if they're just going to serve as gating to a player?" In Fallout 3, I don't need to know that the Deathclaw Sanctuary requires me to be a higher level to get through. I just need to know that the Deathclaws kill me with ease at Level 10... which I find out the moment I run into one and kills me and reverts me to a previous save. The area is effectively gated by an enemy I rarely ever see and which is so powerful I cannot beat it at my current level.

Still, it's a gating system that really doesn't require enemy levels to work. In fact, giving the enemies levels in such a system really does screen "lazy", because you could've just as easily made entirely new monsters for each area and done the same thing. The levels are unnecessary.

Anyway, I think there are other ways to tackle the problem of, "players deliberately grinding to one shot the boss". Fixed encounters works okay up to a point, but it requires a lot of dev oversight in order to ensure you're not too powerful and not too weak in order to be able to reasonably beat said bosses. Personally, I think you can tackle the problem without worrying about grind... if you just give your monsters more to do in combat that smack you for high damage. It's hard to kill a boss with an immunity shield, right? Forces you to have to cast Dispel on the shield. Etcetera. Lots of ways to handle players gaining excessive levels just on the combat end of things.
 

bgillisp

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@Tai_MT : I can answer the why give enemy levels if not using a level up system. See, I gave all my enemy levels for two reasons. One, is so I could mark the enemy as being an enemy that a player at x level should be able to beat. So if I say my skeleton is level 28, that is my way of saying that the enemy should be beatable by a level 28 party. The second is I also use level in my damage formula, so giving enemies levels allows me to make that work.

Of course, the player never sees any of this, so as far as they know, the enemies don't have levels.
 

Henryetha

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I still don't understand why in a system without enemy levels... you'd still give the enemies levels. If they're all different enemies, they don't need levels to begin with.
Leaving aside the definition of level, in our discussion I say "level" to say in a short way, around how strong the enemy is supposed to be.
I could aswell say, enemies for a player between lvl 1-5. But "lvl 1-5 monsters", basically means the same thing here. Even if you don't give the enemy a level, it's still the same enemy I am (or we are) talking about. And the point of that part was the enemy and not which words I am using.. (I'm slowly getting a headache here......)
Further I think our discussion was about scaling enemy levels... it's very different to simply "enemy levels".
Scaling means, their stat grows with the player, while - if taking the level alone, it is just a number, showing the approximate strength of an enemy.

It has nothing to do with level and everything to do with stats.
Now.. what is increasing, when you level up? Your stats.... You talk like these were 2 different things which have nothing to do with each other.

This still begs the question, "If you're changing the stats, skills, tactics, and mechanics of an enemy, why not just make it an entirely new enemy to begin with? Why reuse the same sprite and the same name?".
First of all.. there is no reuse.. the enemies are the same, on the same map at the same place. While without scaling levels they stay weak, with scaling levels they get a stat increase. There is no reuse... Because new enemies WILL have an own sprite and an own name.. I don't know anymore how I shall explain it, as I said that before already... new enemies will have their own tactics and their own mechanics.

The problem you're going to run into with such a system is player confusion. "Okay, what's the difference between a Level 5 Rabbit and a Level 6 Rabbit?".
Why confusion? Maybe if a player is still very unexperienced with videogames in general. But usually a gamer knows, that the difference in first place is the stat increase. And this is exactly, what I would answer.

That's going to get tricky. It's going to get even more tricky when you have 20 versions of Rabbit and they all have different tactics and skills and mechanics.
But that's not the case... again, higher level enemies have stat increase, meaning, more HP, more DEF, they deal more damage, etc.. they are still the same enemies. When you level up a wizard, he also will stay a wizard, unless you implement some class changing etc.

And there's no way to go back and fight the previously leveled enemies. A standard tank enemy may suddenly turn into a magical tank throwing lightning at you, and you've got to now forget the tactics of dealing with that standard tank, because a magical tank is a whole new beast to deal with altogether.
Yea, exactly what I said, lol.. No, seriously... I never said sth like that?! This is sth, you invented here..

Still, I've found the best strategies for dealing with systems in which the monsters level up alongside you is to avoid gaining levels at all, rely entirely upon equipment, and then you can steamroll the entire game. It's quite funny to beat such games at Level 10, using only the powerful loot you've found in dungeons. And, since you're picking up healing items and money in chests... you can sell it to buy new equipment in towns. I mean, you won't need the healing items except for fighting bosses (since you're running from all combat to keep your level low). And once you're far enough, you're going to be one or two-shotting every boss in the game with your equipment and their low levels.
Yep, it's a nice mechanic and one from many. And it's a good thing, that there are many different mechanics used in different games. I wouldn't like to be every game the same.

You're talking about having hard level minimums and maximums on enemies here, which is an entirely different system to enemies leveling up with you. Such a system usually exists to provide "gates" to player entry into certain new areas. It also exists to prevent people like me from steamrolling the entire game at Level 1 or Level 10 by just being clever and avoiding the system that punishes me for gaining levels.
These are just different systems and no conspiracy theory......
I'd recommend you, to maybe look into different genres of games, this is no offense.. it just gives me the impression, that you might not know many genres. I mean... I even gave the hint on hard survival games... :(

About bosses being too hard.. when you say, Dispel on Immunity Shield, then that's a tactic to beat the boss. Me, however, was talking about a boss which still is by far stronger than the player - statwise - like.. he might just kill the player in a few hits while the player's atk isn't sufficient to deal some good dmg. Then the shield and dispel don't matter, the enemy is simply too strong.

Further you ALWAYS have to keep in mind, that the player at first knows nothing about your game mechanics. While you play through the game easily, the player might have troubles and even ragequit on it.
You as the dev, you know all the mechanics in your game and you know exactly, what you have to do. This isn't the case with the player.
 

lianderson

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All systems can work, but honestly, unless you make it a part of the story, enemies leveling up when you level up is just unnecessary and convoluted. There are better ways to approach the over leveling issue.
 

bgillisp

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Or, you could just do what I do...don't care. If a player really wants to spend 10+ extra hours grinding to level 99 so they can one shot everything, then have at it. In fact, that is how some players like to play games, grind to ridiculous levels then try to one shot everything.

So, maybe instead of worrying about it, maybe have some fun with it. After all, I haven't spoken to anyone who didn't find it fun to demolish everything in FF7 with Knights of the Round.
 

Tai_MT

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@Tai_MT : I can answer the why give enemy levels if not using a level up system. See, I gave all my enemy levels for two reasons. One, is so I could mark the enemy as being an enemy that a player at x level should be able to beat. So if I say my skeleton is level 28, that is my way of saying that the enemy should be beatable by a level 28 party. The second is I also use level in my damage formula, so giving enemies levels allows me to make that work.

Of course, the player never sees any of this, so as far as they know, the enemies don't have levels.
Those reasons make sense then. But, again, it's not something you're advertising to the player. I have a hard time seeing why you would advertise to a player that the Rabbit is a Level 3 monster and the Behemoth is a Level 68 monster. Should that level matter to the player? That's what is really confusing to me. I get why you'd advertise to a player that this Rabbit is Level 5 and that Rabbit is Level 10 (to indicate their stats are higher). But, I don't understand why you'd advertise to a player that different monsters have different levels. Like... Will I ever fight a Level 72 Behemoth? If so, what does that mean? If not, what does that level even mean to me, as a player?

Honestly, though, as a player, I prefer being able to grind a bit in order to speed my progression along. If I'm engaged in your story, I'll absolutely put 10 extra levels on my character just so I can breeze through combat for the next little while and get to the good parts of your story. It's the only grind I willingly engage in. I do it to make sure I can have fun in long spurts of time.

Still, I think you can solve the "Level Grind" problem more effectively by just making combat more interesting and dynamic and challenging. I don't think you should need to have monsters level up with you. If you're strong enough, you can break the encounter and kill it all regardless of the challenge (which I see as a good thing). And, if you're not, you can have clever use of your skills and armor and weapons in order to win a fight you maybe wouldn't have been able to, otherwise.
 

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Ummm a level up SHOULD be rewarding. The player after all shall feel to have accomplished something.
Enemies can be adapted to that.
Or you simply let the enemies level with the player, as yanfly's plugin enemy levels does it.
If enemies level up together, there's no reward in the level up either.

When I said about not be rewarding, I was thinking about a really smooth leveling curve. Something like in BoF III, you only will notice some difference on a certain area after you reach about 10 levels above the average level for that area.
 

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Just get rid of levels entirely. Well, you can't really do that with RPG Maker, but you can hide it and not have enemies give you XP. Progression can then be done by other means. Oh, this item gives your character a new skill, or praying at this shrine increases your attack. There's a lot of ways you can get creative to increase your characters strength and abilities without relying on a leveling system.
 

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In my game, the level cap increases as you progress further in the story and most of the things, including equipment strenght scale with level. But you can always farm for some money to stack up items for the boss battle, which is not an excessive amount of farming.

About monster designs, do not hesitate to punish the player. The player makes a stupid move? Wipe out their party. Making monsters similar is fine, but the strategy must be different.
 

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About monster designs, do not hesitate to punish the player. The player makes a stupid move? Wipe out their party. Making monsters similar is fine, but the strategy must be different.
I don't know why, but this appeals to my Inner DM self. My players often say, "Don't kill us!" And I often have to say, "The only way you die in my game is if you do something notoriously stupid like drinking bleach".

I absolutely endorse a TPK on a player who makes stupid or silly decisions in combat. How else will they learn? At least if they do something stupid and die, they return to the last checkpoint. Well, they do that unless you're playing a Rogue-like.

I do think we all should note that it's not really the "Level Grind" itself that is the problem. It's the, "The grinding of levels breaks the intricately designed difficulty I've created as a game dev". Which, usually leads to players leaving comments like, "Combat is too easy". Which, is frustrating to a lot of devs. They look at those comments and yell back, "It wouldn't be if you hadn't overleveled yourself!". But, I think that does just speak to a much larger problem:

Combat in your RPG is only difficult/challenging because you're strictly regulating character growth.

See, other games handle that very well. While I don't like Dark Souls at all (I find it too difficult for me to enjoy it and the controls too terrible to make combat or even walking down a hall very fun), what it does well is... Leave combat difficult/challenging regardless of your level. You can grind all you want, gain a bunch of stats, pick up all the best equipment... But, if you haven't figured out how to master that combat, then every single hit you take is going to hurt you a LOT. That's a result of just having the combat designed to be "always deadly". The new players get wrecked by it. The veteran players have mastered it. It still isn't "easy" for them, but it's "easier" than when they first started playing the game.

I think more devs on these forums should adopt something similar. Make the game challenging regardless of what level your characters are at. 10 extra levels means you take less damage a hit... But, it doesn't stop you from losing the battle if you're not playing very well. "Brute Force" is never a good combat tactic.

I think game devs would worry a lot less about whether or not their players gain extra levels if they instead focused on just making the combat itself the main focus of the challenge and not the accrued stats of the player.
 

fireflyege

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There is another solution which is making the monsters level up as the player does but it diminishes your satisfaction as you level up because when you level up, you should do things a little easier.

I may make monsters level up as the player does but to a limit. Still considering that option but capping level based on story progress seems simpler.
 

silent_drew

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Ok so, I'm working on a game with a exact number of enemies (no random encounters),

I'm not a big fan of games battle systems that you grind xp and one shoot the boss

Do you have any Idea for a battle system that isn't just number based?
you mean like this?
 

Basileus

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I feel like everyone has kind of gotten off topic of the original intent - i.e. "A battle system that isn't just numbers".

I'm seeing a lot of posts that talk about limiting EXP, alternative leveling systems, leveled enemies, etc. but none of this actually addresses the core issue. Having a limited number of enemies may prevent grinding but what do anything about the combat system being too numbers-based. Tying the progression system to something besides EXP from combat doesn't actually change anything once combat has started. Whether or not you level enemies has no effect on how those enemies are actually defeated.

I think the main problem here is the traditional RPG menu-based combat system. You can have 1,000,000 different skills in your game, but if all of them are just "Select skill from menu -> Effect happens" then numbers are all that will matter. Strategic options like buffs, debuffs, status ailments, special states, etc. are all pointless if bopping the monsters with a stick will kill them faster. Likewise, if using them makes combat faster and more efficient than just beating things with a stick then casting all the support spells first becomes the new standard. Nothing actually changes - every single support skill's value is determined by numbers.

It just doesn't matter how many options you give the player, or how you have the player access those options. If combat is just selecting skills from a menu and having them go off automatically - with magnitude and hit rate all determined by stats - then it's a numbers-based combat system. And since it's still numbers-based you run into the problems of impossible bosses, enemies that are too-easy/too-hard/too-equal, and acquiring more numbers to make combat easier.

To avoid these problems we would need to overhaul the combat system to no longer be so dependent on numbers.

The easiest method I can think of is to simply require the player to do more. If character abilities take actual player skill to execute then you can afford to make them more powerful when the player succeeds since that power isn't guaranteed. This can be something relatively simple - like timed button presses - to something more frantic and complex - like entering specific button sequences in a limited window.

This can be done in RPG Maker by having skills call a Common Event that offers something like a Quick Time Event. For example: The player selects the Fire spell, which brings up a bar with a moving icon on it which stops when the player hits X. If the player is completely off the mark, the spell fails. If the player hits the neutral zone the spell hits for normal damage. If the player stops it in the small critical zone the spell hits for critical damage and/or has bonus effects like ignoring fire resistance or causing a burn effect.

Done properly, the player can potentially have a lot of extra power that is dependent on them being good at the game rather than how many combat encounters they've done. Stats still matter, but if the system itself provides powerful rewards for skillful gameplay or good choices, then the numbers become a lot less important and just playing well becomes a lot more important for success. The actual nature of the skill-check is up to the developer but with a little creativity you can do a lot with it.
 

LostFonDrive

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One way to theoretically have a system that is not numbers-dependent would be to focus on a strategic positional system in which units don't act by chipping away at health bars. Think Chess - no stats involved, it comes down to where you put the pieces and how you plan ahead. Pieces are either destroyed or not, there's no in-between. But I'm not so sure that'd be fun as a "combat" system in an RPG.
 

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