A change to the Classifieds / Commercial area

[Shaz]

As some of you have already noticed, the Commercial / Classifieds forums are now no longer visible to some people.


This part of the forum was created for the benefit of our members who wanted to pay for resources to be made or offer their skills to make resources for money, and to encourage them to make commercial games.


Over time, people who were not forum members began to abuse this provision.  They saw it as a place for free advertising.  Most of them posted and left, never returning to follow up on interest or update their portfolios.  Many of them had no idea what RPG Maker was all about (we actually had people posting 3D resources as well as resources that would just not be used in an RPG Maker game).  It was clear that they had no desire to be a part of the community and interact with our members.  The other concern was that none of us knew anything about these people - we could not vouch for them, we had no recourse if they scammed someone.  We decided that the forum would not be used for free advertising by people who wanted nothing to do with RPG Maker or the community any more.


So we put some rules into place to stop the sign up - advertise - disappear posters.  This was as simple as asking people to take part in the forum before posting their ads, by making 10 meaningful posts.  Everyone concentrated on the '10' and no-one considered the 'meaningful' and we still had to deal with people who simply wanted to come here to advertise and not be a part of the community.


So we changed the rules slightly to make sure only people who WANTED to be a part of the community could advertise there (in the Offers section).  This was immediately met by the same people abandoning that part of the forum and posting their portfolios in the Requests forum, as responses to commission requests.  If we don't want people to advertise in Offers if they are not forum members or do not own the programs or know how they work, then we also do not want them responding to individual requests for the same reason.  Of further concern is that there have been a number of commission disputes recently that we've been asked to assist with.  Allowing people who don't want to be a part of the forum to fill and request commissions is inviting more of that.


Stopping people using our forums as free advertising when they want nothing else to do with us is not going to disadvantage our members.  We have plenty of good artists, musicians and scripters right here in the community who are available to take commissions.  And there are lots of other places where you can still go to search, if you can't find exactly what you need here.  If it comes to choosing between a resource provider who is a long-standing member of the community and one who only has a single post, the community member gets our support every time.  We want to give them a better chance.


So, in short ...


The commercial / classifieds section is, and has always been, for the benefit of our forum members.  We are now enforcing that more strictly.  If you are not a forum member and don't intend to be a forum member, you cannot benefit from those sections of the forum (do not go to other parts of the forum offering or requesting services for payment).  If you do want to be a part of the forum, 30 is the magic number now.  However, all posts and posters will still be subject to the same requirements - you need to have at least one engine, and know how your resources should be formatted, and your posts should be related to game development and/or RPG Maker.


Most of our forum members will not be affected by this change at all - only the very new ones who don't have the minimum posts yet, or the few who are coming here purely to advertise or recruit.  I hope this helps you understand why we're taking a firmer stance on this now.

 

[nio kasgami]

The Shaz wrath is hitting! 


Thanks shaz this was so annoying to see people offering "rpg maker" service then they don't know nothing at all about it or don't even OWN rpg maker! 

 

[Lars Ulrika]

Good news! Thanks !

 

[Makio-Kuta]

Sad to hear there's been more disputes lately. >< You mods don't need that added work load. I really hope this new system isn't more work for you guys either, but it's always great to see you looking out for the artists who ARE a part of the community. <3


I'm not sure there's any point in advertising what the magic number is. Maybe that should be kept just between mods. As soon as you said the old number to people they started sprinting around trying to scrounge up posts. Advertising a higher number is going to make them blindly start trying to reach that new number with inane one liners.


What I do find a bit strange about this system is that it will also cut out access for new forum members who want to request or buy. I think there's usually a lot of request posts made by new-ish members. My brain flipflops on whether that's a good or a bad thing, since often new-ish members can have a very broad idea of what a reasonable request is. Mostly curious if this was taken into consideration when the change was made?

 

[Andar]

yes, but unfortunately anything that takes individual cases into consideration will create even more workload because it will require moderator decision.


We had to choose an automatic limit to reduce the workload, and any number we had choosen would have been bad for someone.


And seriously? New users should not go around paying for commissions until they've learned how to handle the program. And asking questions while learning it will easily pass you beyond that limit.


So the only new people who are limited by that are those who learned how to use it elsewhere, and those should have that "elsewhere" for emergency needs while taking the few weeks of participating in this community until they can commission here.

 

[Wavelength]

Forgive me if I've misunderstood - but the way I understand it, non-members and members with fewer than 30 posts now cannot even see either the Classifieds-Requests or Classifieds-Offers forum?


If this is the case, I feel like the regulations are hurting our active members as much as helping them.  People producing RPG Maker games and looking to commission someone will no longer be able to browse the "shops" of our active members, and (unless they stumble upon this thread or something) an RPG Maker user who is looking to join a community where they can get involved and get hired will be less likely to choose this one because it looks like there's nowhere on our site to open shop.


Would it be technically feasible to make it so that non-members and low-post members can see, but not start threads in, these subforums?  I feel like that would set the incentives in the right place, and provide the most overall good for active members while keeping undesirable clutter out.  In addition, it would be a bit of a carrot-on-a-string to encourage new members with a dream of starting a resource shop to become more active.


Thanks as always for the hard work you guys put in for us. <3

 

[Makio-Kuta]

@Andar Whaa sorry for asking?  >< I was just curious - didn't expect to get slapped with an 'and seriously?'


I'm not even against the idea. I was just curious if the buyer end was considered at all before the decision was made, since Shaz's post only talks about the sellers that I saw. >< and for the very reason you said, not all new members are new to the program; and not every member may feel the need to be active. Some people learn the program just by reading the posts already here and may not see the need to contribute to the conversation.


I KNOW it's more work - just like deciding whether or not 30 posts are meaniningful compared to 10. i wasn't trying to be like... negative against the idea. Sorry.


I'll clamp my mouth shut now.

 

[AwesomeCool]

I agree with @Wavelength.  Make the classified section read-only to new members.


If a new member comes to the forum, they might think that the forum does not even have a classified section.  And end up not joining in on the forum and go elsewhere due to misinformation.  I know that, If I didn't know about the commission system here, I would of looked elsewhere to try and find a good community that had a commission section.


You could argue that the new user should of read up about this (on the rule page or whatever), but people lurk and skim through the forum before they even think of joining (to see if it worth getting invested in the forum) and will more then likely only even consider reading the rules if they think that the community is good enough to join.  


That also leads to another problem, how do new users know how active the classified section is if they cannot see it?  You cannot skim or lurk through the section to find out anything about it.  It might push new user to other forums.


Also, lurkers will be hurt by this.  I have noticed that there are lurkers that have the Early Ace adopter badge still (they post but once in a great while).  Despite them being here for a long time (or other long time lurkers), do they no longer have access to the forum.


You could argue that they are not truly active on the community, but many people are shy, have nothing to say and/or have good reasons to not be active posters but still enjoy the forum.


Finally this lowers the amount of potential customer for active members that have commission shops here.  So this could potentially hurt active members also.

 

[nio kasgami]

@AwesomeCool not that I disagree your idea the problem rest....the fact that "artist" who just drop here for gain money without the interest of RM will be able to see commissions request and will just "spam" or PM the client.


Although I'm not against to show at least the Offers sections to the people so they know they have a  commercial sections.


I don't want to disagree  this could be unfair for other member.


Although I just dislike a little the fact that artist/programmer who sorry the expression : don't give a f*ck of rm and don't even know half of it


is just here for "gaining  MUNIES" :/

 

[Zortik]

I'll trust that the web and moderator staff have explored what options they have available to them to choose the best solution.


Many of the comments already posted have pros and cons. Ultimately, there won't be any perfect solution. If the Forum (back end) can support allowing all users (including non-members) to see what's in the classifieds section but not participate. That would be an ideal scenario when coupled with the 30 minimum post rule and/or length of time as a member with this forum.


Thanks for acknowledging the problem and making an effort to improve on it.

 

[Shaz]

New members who want to commission someone can take some time to get to know forum members first.  As I already said a couple of times - classifieds is for the benefit of forum members, not fly-bys.  If they don't want to become a part of the forum, they don't get the benefits of that part of the forum.


Also, something we have been stressing since the very first day is for people to do their homework, whether commissioning or being commissioned, and make sure they know they are dealing with someone who is reliable and known.  That is not possible with people who have only just signed up and barely posted, and that invites trouble.  I don't want to step in and mediate because someone agreed to hire the first person who responded to their ad without bothering to find out their background.


Re letting people view but not post, if you recall, that's exactly what we did with the minimum post count, and people "found ways to get around it" which caused us more work.  Also letting those who've only just signed up view those areas, even though they couldn't post, they could still PM, which still contains the risk of people commissioning someone they don't know and who hasn't proven themselves.  I would rather disadvantage a small number of members temporarily - if they're here to stay, it will only be a short time - than the alternatives we've already tried.

 

[Archeia]

We have cases of users not getting their end of the bargain and have to mediate enough times that it became a problem. We would like to bring a more trusting relationship between the two parties. If someone is close to the community and is friendly, then the likeliness of users not holding up to their bargain is very small. We understand that this is inconvenient for some users, especially lurkers who have been around. But we want to deliver the best experience for every one as much as possible.


We are still an official site and the safety of our userbase is a lot more important. If a newcomer comes around and wants help graphically or programming-wise, then this is a great chance to build up friendships.

 

[Wavelength]

Ah, so the bigger problem is people needing too much mediation over broken deals and such.  That makes sense.  I've been scammed recently as well, by someone who set up a thread in the Classifieds, but I figured this was such a rare thing that I've been trying to work it out myself rather than bother the staff.  Surprising to hear that it's not a rare thing!


I was under the impression that the bigger problem was relatively honest people who simply didn't care about the community that much, and would (collectively) flood the Classifieds with spammish or irrelevant offers.  Thank you for clarifying, Shaz & Archeia.


Still think there's some lost potential here by not even showing the Classifieds.  But it's understandable if the idea needs to be "only people who have something to lose should be using these".

 

[Shaz]

Your original impression was correct.  Historically there have not been many disputes, but the number has increased recently.  The number of non-members using the site for free advertising even though they don't want to be part of the forum has also increased drastically.  So our work has multiplied on both fronts.

 

[crowhound]

It is sad to see that the amount of disputes between those wanting to hire someone and those offering services have reached the current point. As someone who is not active enough to see the classified section I feel kind of split. On one side I can't find an artist to hire until I get more active, but on the other side I have to agree with the moderators decision. If the disputes keep coming in the reputation of the forum community might be marked undesirable to new members. If that happens, in the long run we will lose a vast majority of community members because they will start feeling like the community is not friendly and not open. The forum would start to die and we would see less activity. Since RPG Maker thrives on its community activity this could seriously hurt those that are serious about making games. Ether it is for fun or for money. So I would say in the long run the current decision seems to be like the correct one. We will just have to see how it progresses. 

 

[gizzmito]

Hello everyone, my first message here. 


I usually don’t like to write in forums, and I’m sure that there must be a lot of lurkers, like myself, people who are shy or don’t speak english very well. Some of us don’t ask questions because we read a lot and usually find the answers we’re looking for in topics that other people have started.


We should help others but sometimes we don’t have the knowledge or it’s difficult for us to explain things.. Some people like to write in forums and others just like to read. I’m pretty sure that happens in every forum.


Is it possible that you take into consideration how long an user has been registered and not only the number of messages they have written? 


In my case, I’m making a game and i was thinking that I could commission some art if my game continues progressing but I don’t feel like writing 30 messages. I don’t want to write only to achieve a goal if I do not feel that I have something meaningful to say.


Anyway, I understand your reasons, I really appreciate the job moderators are doing here, I only wanted to give my two cents, thank you very much.

 

[Musashi]

I agree - members offering their services must be part of the rpg maker community, know about the engine and show some rpg maker related material, but I still don't see the reason to hide the Classifieds forums, this just hurts the members advertising there. For the newbies who just wants to advertise, don't being able to post there and don't seeing the forum makes no difference.


Number of posts don't reflect the experience of a member, and like others have said, some people just don't like to actively participate.


The staff shouldn't have to mediate disputes, people have to learn how to do business - just start slow when working with people you don't know very well.  


If that's still too much work for the current staff, maybe you could call someone new to help the staff with this part of the forum.


Anyway, I just wanted to leave my opinion here, I have no intention of arguing over this with the staff, you guys have to do what you think it's best for you, of course! If you don't want to discuss another solution , I demand no response =)

 

[Scythuz]

Are the classified forums just not visible at all to new members?  Because if they aren't, what if instead: they were visible on the main page but, access is locked (you don't have permission to view this forum) when they're clicked on?  That way, they still know the forum has a classified section without mods needing to worry that people will get pms from people who aren't considered active yet (setting the classified forums to read-only wouldn't stop this from happening, most commissions of mine have been initiated by pm, both ways).  It seems like a decent compromise to me and I don't mind the new rules otherwise.  Receiving commissions from active members is 9 times out of 10 a much smoother experience than getting commissions from random people who seem like they could disappear at anytime.

 

[Marquise*]

Great!  I would had thought folks would had posted free assets first of sort or shared/showed projects before posting in there.  :3

 

[Shaz]

@crowhound Let me confirm that there aren't a LOT of disputes - we have handled maybe 2 in the last month.  But for a section of the forum where people are expected to be professional, two is too many.  The number of people coming here purely to advertise is a concern because we really don't know anything about them and there is the potential for that "two" to grow.


@gizzmito it is a good suggestion, and one we would actually prefer to implement, but unfortunately the forum software will only allow us to hide/reveal based on number of posts OR length of membership, not both.  We certainly have a LOT of members who have been part of the forum for a LONG time but have never posted.  In those cases, I think they should be treated the same as people who have only just signed up - because they've never posted or been a part of the community, we know nothing about them.  We've also had people sign up then come back a month later just to post their ads, and have never heard from them again.  It's okay if you don't feel qualified enough to offer help to people, but there are also a lot of discussions happening in other areas that you can contribute if you play games and can offer your opinion/preferences on the subjects being discussed.


@Musashi for those who want to advertise, seeing the forum and not being able to post there just makes them post in other places - so we have them doing what we don't want to do, AND going out of the appropriate forum to do it.  This is exactly what had started to happen with our last rule change, when newbies could see but not post, and is why we made the new changes.  It is not a matter of getting more mods to cover the work - it is a matter of not wanting people to advertise here if they are not a part of the community and do not have or know how to use the engines.  Re disputes - you are talking about common sense, and the pinned threads in both Classifieds forums have big, bold rules about checking up on people before you commission them or accept a commission.  But sometimes people are so inexperienced and so excited to have someone answer them that they just get on with it.  Sometimes it's all legit and things just go wrong for any number of reasons.  Yes, people SHOULD be able to work through things themselves, and in most cases they usually do.  We are only asked for input after that is attempted and things don't work out. 


@Scythuz that would be similar to the last iteration we had, where people could see the forum but not make new posts.  They would PM us, make posts on the forum asking why they couldn't post, and post their ads elsewhere.  They could read the rules and see why they don't qualify.  But the attitude seems to be "I want to advertise and I can't do it this way - instead of questioning WHY I can't do it this way, I'll go find another way to do it"