A complaint ..

Discussion in 'RPG Maker MV' started by RHachicho, Jun 11, 2017.

  1. RHachicho

    RHachicho Veteran Veteran

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    I recently ran across an issue with my first deployed build of the game. I am a new artist trying to get started on patreon .. So you can imagine what a broken first build looks like. If I felt this was in any way my fault I wouldn't be complaining here. But I felt I had to say something as this error speaks volumes about the developers of rpgmaker .. and what they think of their end user.

    Basically .. when I was still an amateur I downloaded a bunch of free to use face-sets that primarily dealt with townspeople. However these facesets had long strings of letters and numbers at the end of their name. However .. since they still worked and I was learning rpgmaker and had better things to do I didn't bother renaming them .. And after a while they where involved in a lot of dialogue. Now SOME update .. not sure which has decided that no .. these files will not be recognized by the editor. A bit of a mean move .. But one I could have lived with .. No what really irked me is it DIDN'T BREAK THE PREVIOUS EVENTS!

    Which means that all the dev team did was change the simple variable of what name formats show up in the editor. It didn't actually modify rpgmakers front end or remove the ability to recognize these files at all .. well .. so far so good you might say.

    Then it comes to deploying the game and the editor flat out ignores these files despite the fact that they are being used and working in events on the playtester .. basically .. the playtester lies .. If the editor had actually been reconfigured to reject those filenames wholesale I would have been annoyed .. But it would have caught it all in playtesting. But this!? I feel like the playtester just stuck me with a big trollface. What you thought your game worked fine bro!? Nah it's totally broken!

    If you are going to change how files are recognized I would think it is common courtesy to spend the time to modify the front end so that long file names aren't recognized by old calls as well not just make the editor and deployment kit stick it's head in the sand about them. Then I would have had a bunch of broken events found them during playtesting and fixed them. Since Our launch was really tright I only played a few hours of the deployed build before signing off on it. And now there's a 50mb patch posted about 2 hours of launch to include the missing files. Which looks bad :(

    This speaks of a dev team that just don't care what they mess up. I realize some might not approve of my lack of neatness when it comes to naming my face sets .. But I don't care this is way way worse. This seems to me like someone went .. well .. most people don't use long file names anyway .. and those who do .. heck with em! /changes variable .. Now where are those donuts?
     
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  2. Kyoku

    Kyoku Veteran Veteran

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    Man oh man how I do not like that last comment!:kaoangry:
    (sorry, this may not stick too well to the topic at hand, mods, and might also get kinda... rude... so so sorry, feel free to ban me if ya have to, I probably would)
    Oh well, it's not like I can fix your problem, nor do I understand how I can comment to something like this, but...
    Can I just say that people make mistakes? I dunno how programming works and what had happened really, so I may be wrong and it could have probably not been a mistake, but I'm just going to assume for now. Okay, so they made a mistake, well what right do you have of being angry at them for it? Eh? It isn't gonna help your cause acting like that. Maybe your just very angry, but it is partially your fault, nobody's perfect, K? And there will be errors like that everywhere you go, you're just going to have to live with it and solve the problem with what you have learned from past mistakes... Okay, that's really all I had to say on the matter. But, can I just add that I HATE that last line! HATE IT! ABSOLUTELY DESPISE IT! And wanna know the best part? I don't even know how to explain why! It just makes me very angry...:kaolivid:
     
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  3. Shaz

    Shaz Veteran Veteran

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    There have always been problems with the editor sometimes not recognizing resources that had been added. I'm not sure if it was ever resolved, or what the cause was.

    Where did you download images from to get really lengthy filenames with long strings of letters/numbers in the name? Can you give us a link, or attach one of them so we can see it?

    Are you using them through the editor tools (as in, selecting the face in the Show Text dialogue box) or are you using them through a plugin (like something that shows portraits rather than faces)? Plugins need to be configured in a certain way to ensure resources get included in a build, if you've checked the "exclude unused resources" box during deployment.

    Also, commercial game developers usually have bugs in their game when they're released. It's not possible to test every single branch of every game under every condition, and the computers being used by players adds another level of complexity. The situation is not as bad as you seem to think - people are generally forgiving for errors early in release. They know you tried your best to provide a working product and that you'll take care of the problem asap.
     
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  4. Poryg

    Poryg Dark Lord of the Castle of Javascreeps Veteran

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    I don't think you really need to shout like this, you know... Because this wasn't a dev slip up.
    The engine is supposed to be able to create games for other platforms too. And since v 1.4 it also works on Linux. And other platforms are not as tolerant to naming as Windows are. On Windows you can get away with pretty much anything. On MacOS the special characters can be game breaking. And length is another aspect, you know... I would want to see you if you created a game for Linux or Mac and then found out that your game wasn't working, because the system had problems with filename lengths. Then you'd be saying the exact opposite.
     
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  5. RHachicho

    RHachicho Veteran Veteran

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    I don't mind at all if the devs want to put rules on the file naming. I understand that on other systems it can be a problem. All I wanted was consistency. For the playtester and deployment function to follow the same rules as everything else. I am sorry for shouting but I am pulling my hair out right now over stuff that i was SO careful to get right :(
     
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  6. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    There's always been rules for file naming. You have to follow network rules. Its just that windows used to let you ignore it. But, with the recent adds of other deployment options, to allow games to work on there it had to start enforcing it for windows. So, no spaces, and almost no symbols are allowed on files, as this is the universal way files have to be named to work on multiple OS's.
     
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  7. LTN Games

    LTN Games Veteran Veteran

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    This does not speak volumes for a game being in development, it may seem like it but it does not at all. What it says is that there was a problem in a game that is being developed.What speaks volumes is when the developer does not fix it or does not attempt to find a proper solution.

    Not trying to sound rude but if you're going to complain about filenames then you don't know the half of being a game developer. Things change all the time, I know this as being a Javascript developer you have to keep up with technology that is constantly changing all the time. If every programmer made a complaint about each time they updated their framework that there website/game or application relies on and it breaks. Then we would have a bunch of angry people on the internet and applications that are broken.

    It's true, it sucks that you have to follow specific rules when developing any application and that when you blindly develop without knowing these rules, things will break. I noticed this trend over the forum a lot, especially when it comes to porting your game over to Android or a mobile device. If anyone believes you will be able to simply click export to android it the game works flawlessly is sadly mistken and does not know the half of being a developer.

    In the end, I believe this complaint speaks more volume than an error in your game, it shows frustration and a lack of knowledge and if you really want to ensure your game's players are satisfied, I'd fix it and learn about why it needs to be done the way it does. Most of the time there is a reason things are done the way they are, especially in a world where the technology is changing all the time and people expect multi-platform support.
     
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  8. RHachicho

    RHachicho Veteran Veteran

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    You're clearly not listening. I'm not asking for no changes nor am I asking for special consideration.

    I am asking for the playtester to be consistent with the editor and the deployment system. I don't see how I'm supposed to predict a system that doesn't do what it's supposed to and doesn't play by it's own rules. I already mentioned that if the playtest system actually recognized the files as broken I would have picked them up in play-testing and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
     
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  9. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    I see what your saying, but what we're saying is if you playtest it on one OS, and someone tests it on another, then it will not catch it. There is NO way to fix that short of you knowing how the other OS reads files. And that is a developer's responsibility, no one can shortcut that for you.

    Plus, playtest mode has a lot of debug stuff designed to let you continue past errors, like being able to hold down CTRL to go through walls and such. You honestly should always test your game in deployed mode too, for that reason.
     
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  10. RHachicho

    RHachicho Veteran Veteran

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    Yeah you can bet I will do that from now on. Yes I am a new developer. No you didn't have to be nasty about it LTN Games.

    However this wasn't a deployment for a different OS or running it on a different OS. I still believe my complaint was quite justified. I don't want to be babied. I am capable of learning. But I do want the engine to show consistency. And I feel like MV just gave me the giant trololol after months and months of work.
     
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  11. Poryg

    Poryg Dark Lord of the Castle of Javascreeps Veteran

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    Actually, your complaint wasn't justified enough.
    1. there's no point in programming one thing on two different places if one is enough. It's already blocked off in the engine, so there's no point in blocking it off the playtester or the app. After all, these cases where old projects have long filenames are an easy fix by users and aren't too common. AFAIK you're the first one that reported this issue.
    2. If the game file has to check everytime if the file names checks out, can you imagine how much slower the games would load? It may look like an instant to you, but working with files is way more demanding for the computer than just checking some variables. And if a game has to crawl... Hmm, almost all files (if we don't count maps and rpg_scripts, then all)... It's impractical and unnecessary.
     
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  12. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    No, but it could be different versions of the OS, or virtual versions of the OS. In those cases you'd hit an issue too.

    Though...I think version 1.5 also enforces the network rules now for all OS's if I heard right (I'm using ACE still, so can't verify), so if you upgrade to that it should force you to make sure all file names are under correct format via network rules (which is, as I understand it, no spaces, and almost no symbols are allowed).
     
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  13. RHachicho

    RHachicho Veteran Veteran

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    Okay then can someone link me to a source for what symbols are acceptable so I can learn how many of the facesets need to be fixed?

    Most of them should be fine as long as _ and - are okay.
     
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  14. mlogan

    mlogan Global Moderators Global Mod

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    I just want to remind everyone to keep it civil please. @RHachicho I understand your frustration. I think some might feel a bit defensive as we know that Archeia and her team that are working hard on improvements to make it a better product for users and would not intentionally do something to make it more difficult for users or break their games. But, sometimes with improvements there are growing pains.

    As far as the naming of the files, the long strings of numbers and such are on the person who created and uploaded the file. I'm not saying this is your fault, but a tip for the future is to always rename such files into something better. This is not just for the file being able to read it but for your own "record keeping" as well.

    For example, many of us who have been around a while have learned it's best to make sure the name includes what the item is and the creator. For example, NPC_Face2_mlogan or whatever. Many creators try to name their files in such a way, but many don't. This is helpful so that when you have a lot of downloaded resources, you can easily remember who to give credit for and you can find the resource again easily through searches later on.

    I'm not certain on what symbols are acceptable so you'll have to wait on someone else to confirm, but this is just a tip when dealing with the many free resources you'll find.
     
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  15. Poryg

    Poryg Dark Lord of the Castle of Javascreeps Veteran

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    Letters and numbers are fine.
    As for the special characters... []()$!-_ and maybe @ are accepted by RMMV with no issue, however $ and ! have their own significance, so I would refrain from using them. Some plugins also use the brackets or square brackets. So the safest method is using the - and _.
    Spaces are illegal, \ or / are illegal too, because linux uses / for subfolders and windows uses \. I'm not sure about °, ~ and several more. But generally the - and _ are enough anyway :)
    @mlogan has a good point though. Today I downloaded a collection of like 50 MB of files, however there are many files that are rips... And because I cannot distinguish the ripped files from legit files, I can delete pretty much most of them except for the 10% that is still kept record of in credits section.
     
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  16. RHachicho

    RHachicho Veteran Veteran

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    Yeah like I said I may be a new developer but I was a total noob when I started. I don't just let files like that lie now the problem is that there are hundreds of lines of dialogue referencing those facesets now. And cleaning all that up is going to be hours of extremely tedious work. That would have been frustrating yes. But I could have delt with that. But if the editor had just done something .. I dunno .. like disassociated the dialogue lines that referenced the old facesets so they threw up errors or even highlighted the files in red because they referenced an image no longer recognized by MV I would have noticed that instantly .. And this whole mess could have been avoided.

    Thank you for letting me know about the symbols. If - and _ are fine then most of my facesets are too. Like I said these faces are from very early development. And I got into the practice of renaming the files myself quite quickly. I just figured I could get away with leaving them as they where since the editor wasn't complaining .. And I had no playtest errors.
     
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  17. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    I see what you mean. Like an error catch or something? Yeah, I've ranted before on the lack of error catching algorithms used in profressional programs before as I would have gotten an F in my Computer Science classes if I had dared to write a program with as sloppy error catching as is used today in the industry. But that's another topic.

    What might help you. I think there's a plug-in out there which will throw an error message stating what file it could not find, then will let the game continue with it using a placeholder image. That might help you to find the facesets easier, and let the game still run until you can find them all?
     
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  18. Poryg

    Poryg Dark Lord of the Castle of Javascreeps Veteran

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    @RHachicho
    Download Sublime 2 and go to the game folder, data and open the map.json files with it.
    Use replace function and replace the old filename by the new filename.
    This way the replacement will take just a few clicks :) (unfortunately you'll have to do it with every map though, but it still is way shorter than going dialog by dialog and replacing it manually)
     
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  19. RPGMaker777

    RPGMaker777 Veteran Veteran

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    As someone who just had a similar issue as seen in my recent topic regarding spaces, I can definitely sympathise with this and I've even contacted support to suggest that they add correct file naming conventions to the Asset standard guidelines to prevent this type of thing from happening.

    I had named a lot of stuff with spaces and had to change a fair few names and events which was annoying.

    If it helps by the end I had a good system going.

    Create a temp empty folder within whatever folder you need to change names in (Faces, Characters, etc)

    Ctrl Copy all the files you need to change names for, copy and paste them in the temp folder.

    Change names in temp folder then select all files, cut and paste back into your Face, characters, etc folder.

    Then delete the temp folder and reassign the new images in game events.

    That method not only checks if you've neglected to change file names when you cut them back into the main folder (and you will believe me because it's so boring,) it lets you keep all the original files in place so it's easier to remember which ones to rename.

    You can then delete the original bad name files and get on with your game.

    Hope it all goes well for you.


    EDIT: Should have read the topic in more detail and can see that you've already patched this up, but it's more your concern at how it looks as a first time build. Either way it reinforces the importance of naming files correctly. Hopefully a lot of people can learn from this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2017
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  20. RHachicho

    RHachicho Veteran Veteran

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    Thank you for being understanding. Honestly now I've calmed down a bit the tone of my first post was quite rude. And I do apologize for it. Like I said months of work and suddenly .. I still feel that I have a genuine complaint. Regarding MV's error handling and even some of the weird ways it makes everything harder. Like for example the kind of functionality sublime has where you can look up all references to one image and replace it with another. I can't help but feel that this is a function that could easily have been built into the editor. It already has the facility to look for switches and variables. Lots of little things that seem like they haven't changed much since much older versions of RPGMaker. I've always been quite sanguine about it but I guess this just made me fly off the handle.

    Thanks for letting me know about sublime though. It will help .. I just wish I hadn't just spent most of the day doing the majority of the work it could have made easier lol. As for that plugin that lets things keep running with placeholders .. That sounds godsent. Anyone know what it's called?
     
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