A concept for a Roguelike game - What do you think?

[CzarSquid]

I've been planning out a roguelike gaming experience that could potentially work well in RPGmaker. With MV coming out soon I'd like to create a game that would offer high replay value, high difficulty, and still be a RPG game. I've played enough roguelikes to conclude what makes them great and mechcanics. However, RPGmaker without programming really isn't suited for roguelike gaming. Heck, what I'm about to present is something might be considered different from traditional roguelikes. I'm also looking for input from others to see if this idea would be good, if some of the ideas need be tweaked/removed or any new ideas that could make the experience better.

What is the mechanics and goal?

I will be building a prototype of this game to test out this theory. The goal is to travel through 10 maps to reach the final boss of the game. Each map will have a tile placed randomly for the entrance and exit in a random fashion. The dungeon will also contain random tiles for the player to interact (like gathering keys, opening chest, Shopkeppers). The goal is to make it to the bottom of the dungeon without dying.

Features that I plan on using

1. While random generation is nice to have and there exist scripts for random maps. I personally don't know any scripting and I don't have time to dedicate at this time for doing so. So instead I will make each map individually and add them to a pool of maps. This can work really well since I can still change up the chest locations and stair locations without any programming. While it may take away some of the mystery of the roguelikes, I can still add plenty of content per map to fake a roguelike experiance (which can be just as good). While its true some will memorize the maps you would still be required to find the exit staircase. Later down the road I might add branching pathes with 2 or more staircases but for the sake of simplicity it will be one for the prototype.

2. I plan on having the standard battle system from RPGmaker since I don't want to deal with scripting a new battle system. The player will be able to pick a class in the beginning with some set abilities to choose from. The player will not gain xp in the dungeon but will still earn gold. The reason for no xp is to prevent the player from grinding and gaining too many levels early and ruining the balance of the game. Since healing and other items will be scarce in the game, it would be foolish to grind in this game. To counter grinding, each level the player passes in the game the price for objects will exceptionally increase to further discourage this behavior.

Example: floor 1 a health potion my cost 10g, floor 2 the same health potion will cost 25g

This way, you must fight stronger monsters to maintain income. To make battles and exploration worth it. Random items and new abilities will be available to the player in chest and shops. I'm not sure if I will have additional party members yet. I think I might allow one mercenary you can hire to tag along if you can find the NPC and pay for his services.

3. Since XP will not be in the game. There will be rune items that boost stats for your player. These will be rare but will give marginal increases to HP, MP, ATK, DEF and the rest of the stats. You can even purchase runes from shopkeepers. This is a better alternative to the leveling system because it is controlled.

4. Shops will have a limited items. This means once an item is bought it is not replenished. This will also allow for stealing of items. To steal items, the player can grab the item and try to walk out of the store. I could do this by Link's Awakening style where the shopkeeper needs to see you walk out the door. The second style is by doing a "dice roll" like the Elder Scrolls when the item is taken. The Elder Scrolls thieving system is easier to do.

5. In battles, hard weaknesses and strengths will play a big role. I'll make sure to include spell scrolls in the game abundantly so help the player to counter monsters. The only problem I have is since the monsters will stay the same (no random names, abilities), the player could potentially memorizes the weaknesses. I don't think this will much a problem if lots of monster variety was added.

6. The game will be challenging because there will be traps, there will be difficult monsters, you will most likely to die many times over. One problem with high difficulty is making sure the player feels like they were treated fairly rather than cheated. I won't result to instant death stuff; it is boring, unfair, and doesn't encourage improvement. However I could do stuff like a trap will poison a player if they walk over a trap tile without checking. Or have a monster with a ton of health that requires the player to run away.

7. Saving will be limited because of this. You can only save outside the dungeon. If you die in the dungeon then you have to start over. If you manage to climb to the bottom and exit out then you can rest up, heal, sell/buy stuff and then adventure again. However saving in the dungeon will not be allowed to prevent save cheating. I think by allowing the player to exit the dungeon should be a reward in itself and would also allow the dungeon to reset to a new map. That way progress can be continuous.

8. I'll use the RPGmaker default assets for the prototype. Just until I got the game running.

So what do you think?

Be completely honest here. Would you play a game like this? What don't you like about it? What can I do to improve on this? I won't get mad if you say it's dumb, you hate it, or have a better idea but please be civil about it!

 

[9tkitsune]

Ah, yes yes, I understand...  

I've read your post carefully and I think I know what kind of game you mean. A rouglike, is somewhat like a dungon crawler with randomized maps?
Like " Evolution " from dreamcast or " Azure Dreams ", PS1 ..?

Yes, those games can work. So I can see your game concept work, too. 

However for me to play one, mainly the graphics and character design (portraits etc) must lure me in - and then it needs a nice background story to keep me hooked. Something that motivates me to progress bit by bit. 

Evolution had really cute character designs and a protagonist I loved on first sight. His job was to be an adventurer / explorer and he went on dungeon raids with his little girlfriend and a butler. ^^ The dungeons always changed slightly, each time you entered them. And every now and then here was a boss. 
He accidently discovered some ancient relics while exploring and at some point things went bad and there was some drama, so I wanted to know " OMG what will happen next? I have to know !! " So yeah, very good!

Azure Dreams also had very beautiful and original character art, that had its very own style and charm. I liked the protagonist's design, and started playing. The story revolves around the adolescent boy who has turned 15 and is now finally 'old enough to explore the monster tower' ! ^^ He (you) lives in a poor desert village with his mother and little sister. His (your) father explored the tower, too until that one day, he never returned. Legend goes he had a fight against the strongest monster on top of the tower and lost his life. : ( 

You don't have a party, but there are monsters in the tower that you can capture (like pokemon) and you can bring 1 as a combat partner. 

Also, in the village you know many girls and they all give you quests - and if you want to get closer / build a relationship with the cuties, you have to fill their requests and talk to them a lot. Sometimes they might even give you a gift in return. 

Also, you can help the town to become more rich, by donating money and stuff. 
So in short: This game has a total of 4 motivators to play: 
- Find out what happened to your dad
- Capture monsters / collect them all
- Flirt with / help the girls and get dates

- Support your village and help it grow

You see, there is more than just the game mechanics, there must be something to sing your teeth into. 


 

 

[CzarSquid]

I definitely agree good art is good to have and essential if it goes commercial. At the moment the prototype won't have custom art but the MV version will definitely have custom assets.

I really like that idea of going into a dungeon to gather resources to build the town up. That particular mechanic would definitely give a lot of motivation to not only explore the dungeon but to make several trips into it. Also would encourage continuous play rather than just going in to slay the dragon. Even for a short game I'm planning on making could benefit from this system.

As for party members I might not do something as complicated as pokemon. It still wouldn't hurt to have a partner to tag along. It can be supporting role to the story and bring abilities that your main character may not have. I just need to decide early on what kind of system because the combat needs to be built with a set number of party members in mind. Speaking of which, I forgot to mention that ranking up characters would play a role. Just like Final Fantasy you can rank your characters I think it be nice to have some promotional class rankings that the player can choose from.

 

[9tkitsune]

Yeah, I would recommend at least one companion character, unless the main theme of your game is 'lonelyness' - because travelling through the dungeon all alone time and time again would certainly feel lonely...

The companion could be a person, a pet or a monster- just chose something that fits your setting and story. 

Features that I plan on using

1. While random generation is nice to have and there exist scripts for random maps. I personally don't know any scripting and I don't have time to dedicate at this time for doing so. So instead I will make each map individually and add them to a pool of maps. This can work really well since I can still change up the chest locations and stair locations without any programming. While it may take away some of the mystery of the roguelikes, I can still add plenty of content per map to fake a roguelike experiance (which can be just as good). While its true some will memorize the maps you would still be required to find the exit staircase. Later down the road I might add branching pathes with 2 or more staircases but for the sake of simplicity it will be one for the prototype.

So, I'm unsure how exactly you were planning to do the maps. 

Do you want to create 10 x 10 different maps? That could work, it's a lot of work tho. ; ) 

How big do you want your maps to be?

Here's a suggestion of what you could do without much programming ( only event scripting )

If your game should have 10 "levels" (as in floors), for each "level", create 1 large map. 

to add an element of random maze, connect parts of the map via teleporters. 

upon entering a level, autorun an event that randomizes a number ( example, between 1 and 8 ). 

have the teleporters teleport you to a different part of the map, depending on the number that was generated.

create the player's path like that. you could even leave the stairs (and traps) at the same "room" or place. since it's just the route that changes - because the teleporters decide the path. 

 

[hiromu656]

How will you be handling equipment in the game? Random loot? Random stats? Thats usually what brings me back to roguelikes, when I get an item I never had before that effects the entire run.

 

[CzarSquid]

Yeah, I would recommend at least one companion character, unless the main theme of your game is 'lonelyness' - because travelling through the dungeon all alone time and time again would certainly feel lonely...

The companion could be a person, a pet or a monster- just chose something that fits your setting and story.

I'm not sure how much of a relationship I want the player to have. A story hasn't been determined yet. I just might end up with some generic relationship for the prototype since having a companion would definitely help in combat situations. However I think one problem I might have is having moments where the player gets a chance to interact with his companion. I can make it work by putting intermission maps between the random dungeon maps.

So, I'm unsure how exactly you were planning to do the maps. 

Do you want to create 10 x 10 different maps? That could work, it's a lot of work tho. ; ) 

How big do you want your maps to be?

Here's a suggestion of what you could do without much programming ( only event scripting )

If your game should have 10 "levels" (as in floors), for each "level", create 1 large map. 

to add an element of random maze, connect parts of the map via teleporters. 

upon entering a level, autorun an event that randomizes a number ( example, between 1 and 8 ). 

have the teleporters teleport you to a different part of the map, depending on the number that was generated.

create the player's path like that. you could even leave the stairs (and traps) at the same "room" or place. since it's just the route that changes - because the teleporters decide the path.

So here is what I had plan for maps. It was going to be about 30 maps premade. All the maps will have the same rules: one entrance, one exit, and common events to handle the monsters and treasure. The maps are then selected before the player enter's the dungeon and then placed in a order. This way, the dungeon remains persistent and allows backtracking if needed. Exiting the dungeon will force the dungeon to reset. I'm gonna fudge with the tilesets a bit (cause you can swap those around) so it appears that each level has it's own theme. Even if you recognize a map because the generator picked it again, it is unlikely it will look the same.

Now to be clear I'm not completely against scripting. I just don't have sufficient knowledge of ruby or the time to make massive custom scripts for this game. Plus I have a really good understanding of the events and will use scripts if I need them.

How will you be handling equipment in the game? Random loot? Random stats? Thats usually what brings me back to roguelikes, when I get an item I never had before that effects the entire run.

I plan on having different elements for equipment: iron, bronze, steel, mitheral, and elemental. Magic will also play a role with light (lighting), fire, dark (cold/necromancy), and poison. All equipment will have to be premade but finding the items will be very random and luck based. It wouldn't be much of roguelike if there wasn't random loot. The loot will be largely dependent on the map level you are currently exploring. It is very unlikely to find a rare powerful weapon on the first floor but not impossible. I can't say how big this list of items will get but I'm gonna try to do my best to make as many combinations I can. I want a good variety of items for the player to find to help them in combat. A flaming dagger might be weak against most enemies but it might be strong enough to take out a ice slime. I think half the fun is trying to figure out which element works best in killing certain enemies.

Since equipment is going to be vital, I'm going to add a script to battles to allow switching equipment mid battle.

There will be magic scrolls and potions you can use in battle too. These limited spells will tend to be stronger than the magic you have.

As for leveling up and stats, this might be a little bit more tricky to do but I will do my best. I was thinking of finding runes which will increase your stats or may reduce them in exchange for other stats. Spell books will teach the player new abilities as well. Some NPC trainers will also increase your stats for a fee.

Speaking of which, I think it be neat to have some werewolf/vampire stuff in the game too. It would be a type of debuff that changes your class giving you strengths and weaknesses. This would obviously be much later down in development but possible to do.

 

[9tkitsune]

If you chose maps so random, how do you control / ensure the creature encounter level? 
Or do all monsters have the same strength? 

Else I suppose you came up with a mechanism that spawns creatures depending on how many maps lie behind  you..? 

 

[Rikifive]

Personally I love roguelike games - I'm planning to add that theme into my game.

I don't see anything wrong in making a roguelike game in RPG Maker, that is totally doable.

Personally I'd leave the exp thingie - I'd put monsters on map*, so that battles would be limited to prevent grinding and of course remove the ability to go back ~ when going down, there's no going back up ~ just going through and through until you'll die and be transported back to city or something.

* - it still can be standard turn based system

I'm also thinking of making 'pools of maps' rather than using a script for this - firstly, IDK how to use these scripts; Secondly, that way I can use parallax maps and have full control on things I want to put in.

In these games it's good to put some resources in dungeons like breakable barrels etc. where you'll be able to find some potions and stuff.

I agree on disabling saving in dungeons - it's the most important thing.

Also, putting many other things in here is always good - for example books, that lets you learn skill; scrolls, that lets you use skill once; some elixirs and stuff, that temporarily* slightly increase stats etc. to make exploring more interesting and fun.

* - perhaps it can last until you die.

About resistances and stuff, I don't think there's a big problem - in any game you always can learn enemy's weakness and stuff, so don't worry. Perhaps on harder levels make skills for enemies, that change resistances and stuff during battle or something like this.

For shops I'd do shops in city and in dungeons.

In city > Some potions to buy (limited or not), some minor improvements to character such as equipment, very slightly stat increases etc.

In dungeon > randomly - it can have potions (limited), perma/temp stat increases, rare equipment and things like this.

Hm... that's all I can think of right now - so... there you have some of my silly ideas and things.

I like roguelike games, so I'll definitely would like to play a game like this. =)

Well.. Good luck!

 

[CzarSquid]

If you chose maps so random, how do you control / ensure the creature encounter level? 

Or do all monsters have the same strength? 

Else I suppose you came up with a mechanism that spawns creatures depending on how many maps lie behind  you..?

Since you can force encounters with events the only challenge would be to make something to count the number of steps a player makes. All which can be done with parallel events. Since the loot would also be controlled by frequency based on how far the player is in the dungeon, more difficult monsters will frequently show up in deeper sections of the dungeons. This way I don't need to make 10+ maps for every single floor and quickly change the rates at which monsters show up.

Personally I love roguelike games - I'm planning to add that theme into my game.

I don't see anything wrong in making a roguelike game in RPG Maker, that is totally doable.

Personally I'd leave the exp thingie - I'd put monsters on map*, so that battles would be limited to prevent grinding and of course remove the ability to go back ~ when going down, there's no going back up ~ just going through and through until you'll die and be transported back to city or something.

* - it still can be standard turn based system

As much as I want a full roguelike experience in RPGmaker. There is still much I can't do but I can get close. Really this game is pretty much going to be a Pokemon Mystery Dungeon clone without the overworld combat. Which doesn't make it a bad thing. Personally I think any game can benefit from roguelike gameplay.

XP is a funny thing in games. It can work well in a game and RPGs use it all the time. It allows the player to go at a pace they want in most of the game. You want to beat a rpg fast then you risk being underleveled. If the game is too hard then you simply grind to get strong enough to make the game easier. By removing XP from the game, I want less focus on killing the monsters and more balance to the game. When you don't level up means I can easily keep the difficulty strong because the player isn't getting better with each level up. By forcing the player to dive deeper for weapons, stat upgrades, and larger amounts of gold should be the driving force of the game. 

However I do like the idea of limiting monsters on a floor to prevent grinding. My solution to the grinding is limiting healing items and spells that will bring even the best adventurers to it's knees. One thing I worry about is players trying to scum their way by killing only first level monsters and running back to town to heal up/buy equipment. 

I'm also thinking of making 'pools of maps' rather than using a script for this - firstly, IDK how to use these scripts; Secondly, that way I can use parallax maps and have full control on things I want to put in.

In these games it's good to put some resources in dungeons like breakable barrels etc. where you'll be able to find some potions and stuff.

I agree on disabling saving in dungeons - it's the most important thing.

Also, putting many other things in here is always good - for example books, that lets you learn skill; scrolls, that lets you use skill once; some elixirs and stuff, that temporarily* slightly increase stats etc. to make exploring more interesting and fun.

* - perhaps it can last until you die.

I have a lot of experience with making maps in RPGmaker (just take a look at the game I made for an example in the signature). It doesn't matter if it's a parrallax map or not. The map only serves as groundwork. I can use events to create chest, stairs, traps, doors, and decorative doodads. I can change them randomly and place them in places I want them to appear. I can make them do just about anything. Granted I'm going to limit where these events will appear but to the player it will look mostly random. 

About resistances and stuff, I don't think there's a big problem - in any game you always can learn enemy's weakness and stuff, so don't worry. Perhaps on harder levels make skills for enemies, that change resistances and stuff during battle or something like this.

What I want to avoid is the "one solution to every monster you encounter". You know the infamous press A to win that plague many RPGgames. This is another reason why I'm removing level ups in the game is because I don't want players getting so strong they make enemies that are supposed to be difficult too easy. I want the player to think, to engage a monster. I want some of the solutions to a battle to run away if the player doesn't have the right item or ability. This will definitely be frustrating for some but it's all a learning experience.

For shops I'd do shops in city and in dungeons.

In city > Some potions to buy (limited or not), some minor improvements to character such as equipment, very slightly stat increases etc.

In dungeon > randomly - it can have potions (limited), perma/temp stat increases, rare equipment and things like this.

Hm... that's all I can think of right now - so... there you have some of my silly ideas and things.

I like roguelike games, so I'll definitely would like to play a game like this. =)

Well.. Good luck!

Thanks! I'm glad you like the idea. It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out. What I can say is all that I described is something I thought carefully of and can make a lot of it happen. I'm not sure how long it will take to make but I assume it shouldn't be long since I'm skipping the art.

Plus I hope it gives others some ideas to make their own roguelike RPGs.

 

[Missile]

Made a game that tried some very similar things a while back in 2014's IGMC (Leviathan), and ran into a few things that might be of interest!

 

1. Random generation means players might be moving across parts of the map with no content. Games like Binding of Isaac don't necessarily have to deal with this, because they're paced in a small room-to-room basis. (this also relates strongly to point #3!)

 

2. This one might not be relevant, but for Leviathan, I randomly generated the pathways through the maps, rather than selecting from a pool of random map layouts. This meant players had to backtrack when reaching the incorrect pathway, and while it did relate to the theme of the game (friendship and things that prevent or block it), it's definitely frustrating, and is magnified by the previous example.

 

3. Layering content. Ideally, you want a sort of sequence of "goal -> action -> reward" in any game. If the player finds they're receiving one of these without the other, it can get frustrating (this also extends to design in any field, especially UI!). With tiles randomized though, it increases the possibility of content escaping this basic loop. Using Isaac for example, your goal is to complete a room, action is completing the room, and reward is a randomized item/chest at the end. This one's a big killer, I think, but it will definitely depend if you're using random battles or on-screen encounters. On-screen makes this much easier to manage!

 

4. (minor) It sounds like you want to minimize RNG in battles, which sounds like a good way to go if unfairness isn't related to your game's theme! Random battles can give a really cool "survival" feel, but might be a little unfair at times and discourage exploration.

 

5. Would strongly recommend the intermission maps, too! I think Lev is a bit too subtle, and a lot of people left confused over the theme. It's a tricky balance, and the right intermissions can help a lot (Friend seems pretty good at this though!)

 

Those are my thoughts!