A New RPG Maker draws near! Command?

[Makeratore]

If you have a personal dislike for low poly, retro 3D, I understand, but I invite you to rethink the possibilities. All of these are, barring minor adjustments, now doable within MV3D since we can upload our own .obj.

Wait, what? Can we import 3D .obj files into MV3D plugin?

 

[TheoAllen]

You must've missed the part where people said that you're wrong and it is, in fact, 3D, and not pseudo-3D.

You probably missed the part that the effect of MV3D is basically the same as Doom

In which, the sprites are just flat 2D planes in "3D world"
The same goes for the breath of fire 4 you linked above.

It is not 3D by standard (and by that, I don't endorse it being advertised as "3D"), but it isn't exactly bad on its own as it's a stylistic choice, but pushing that to RM is just out of bound. Not many people such style from what I've known. I don't even like that style despite the fact that Doom 1&2 was my fave video game during my childhood.

In my opinion, if you want a 3D, go big or go home.

If you have a personal dislike for low poly, retro 3D, I understand, but I invite you to rethink the possibilities. All of these are, barring minor adjustments, now doable within MV3D since we can upload our own .obj. :

Possibilities are just, possibilities.

Anyway I'm very protective of MV3D, an amazing tool that's VERY competent at what it does (much moreso than any of its honorable RM ancestors) and, at the hands of a good artist, can produce gorgeous, endearing and even very modern results. But, naturally, it is no Unreal Engine 5.

The concept of MV3D is actually being challenged on how the community could contribute to it. It was the biggest challenge in 3D. If you're doing 2D, everyone could do it just fine. Because it's easy. Now you add the complexity of "3D". I mean, sure you could make it on your own game and you keep your own resource. However, that is not how the RM community works. Everyone who couldn't make their own resource seeks for free resources or buy DLC. Is there any good artist who made a good resource for this 3D plugin?

 

[JosephSeraph]

The same goes for the breath of fire 4 you linked above.

You know that the PS1 is incapable of 2D, right? Even Symphony of the Night on the PS1 is 3d. Every "sprite" is a flat plane rendered within a 3D engine, just like most 2D Unity games. Doom is achieved with Raycasting, indeed, which is fake 3D. It's less 3D than Symphony of the Night, technically. That's not the case with MV3D, and that's absolutely not the case with Breath of Fire IV or any game on the PS1.

Because it's easy. Now you add the complexity of "3D"

MV3D is exceedingly simple to use and making a quality textureset for MV3D is easier than it is to make a quality 2D tileset like Celianna's.

Is there any good artist who made a good resource for this 3D plugin?

I'm one of the many; in fact, anyone with experience in making 2D assets can easily transition into making 2D textures for the tilesets, anyone with experience in making 2D characters will still be making 2D characters within MV3D, and anyone that's making pre-rendered work on RPG Maker (PVGames for example) will smoothly transition into making .obj files.
Fun fact: Making ISO characters 33% less work than making the RPG Maker default's. With ISO, you do front-left, back-left, then flip. With RPG Maker default you make front, back, then you can flip the left.

And if you're not talking about MV3D, but rather, a built-in implementation of 3D that accepts bones and animations, then that's not that hard, too. 3D, by nature, is a bit harder to get into than 2D is. But it also is much more efficient and easy to work with the bigger your project's scope is. That being said, out of the box 3D on the new rpg maker is the last thing i'm expecting.

 

[MikePjr]

I really, really hope this is a thing, but I'm not holding my breath. Sure, it isn't real 3D, but after playing around with the MV3D plugin, I find that it has a certain primitive, early-90's aesthetic that I actually kinda like. Now if only I could figure out how to get my previously-made maps to display correctly lol.

I honestly think 90s 3D is the way to go anyhow.
It's got it's charm.
Simplistic shapes, simple geometry, nothing fancy.
Kind of like Shining the Holy Ark on the SEGA Saturn.. or maybe one of those games on the PS1 that used the rotating 3D.. all of which the MV3D plugin seems to do.
Thinking about it now though... it might not be 3D.. and someone could just figure out a way to make another MV3D plugin later down the road.
Ugh... sadly, i'm fairly certain that what get's announced or shared on thursday is decided by Kadokawa and not Degica.
Still very curious to see this unfold though.
Not excited yet though..

Wait, what? Can we import 3D .obj files into MV3D plugin?

I don't think so.. no.. it's pretty simplistic 3D.. it doesn't seem to use actual 3D models.

 

[JosephSeraph]

Simplistic shapes, simple geometry, nothing fancy.

It's also the most feasible for us to develop for, as a community, while also maintaining the workflow as close to what it currently is as possible...

Wait, what? Can we import 3D .obj files into MV3D plugin?

I don't think so.. no.. it's pretty simplistic 3D.. it doesn't seem to use actual 3D models.

As from the last Premium update of MV3D, released just about a week ago, you can indeed use .obj files. They're perfect for scenery, objects, etc. The downside is that they can't be animated, so they're really objects.

Anyway I think we're kinda derailing the thread at this point I guess. I also think it'd be smart to work closely with Dread to have MV3D be a part of the future of RPG Maker. I personally would like to make an asset pack with isometric or even 8-dir sprites to use within MV3D. I'd also like to make a 3D generator that can output pre-rendered spritesheets at multiple character dimensions, frame rates and directions, but that'd be a bit more initially expensive to make. (but very powerful, flexible and easy to expand upon.)

 

[Zarsla]

I put my money on 3+ layers.
Especially if they add MV Trinity Features.
One of MV Trinity Features was Foreground & Background parallax.
Basically a Foreground is a fog layer.
(XP had a built in fog layer & 3+ layers, strong feeling that XP mapping system in it's full glory is coming back, but being merged with the VX -MV style).

Though Touch Fuzzy could be talking about foreground parallax as well.

 

[TheoAllen]

You know that the PS1 is incapable of 2D, right? Even Symphony of the Night on the PS1 is 3d. Every "sprite" is a flat plane rendered within a 3D engine, just like most 2D Unity games. Doom is achieved with Raycasting, indeed, which is fake 3D. It's less 3D than Symphony of the Night, technically. That's not the case with MV3D, and that's absolutely not the case with Breath of Fire IV or any game on the PS1.

You're right. I don't know things about this.
But in my defense, even people like that wanted to manipulate the engine and to make 2D than staying 3D. Now, if what you're saying is to make the RM engine have the capability of processing 3D, that could make more sense, besides, it's already happening since they're using JS so that you could use Babylon.js. However, I would prefer it to be still a separate plugin or entirely brand new engine (Smile game builder, hello?) because we (read: I) don't know how many people would stick around and play the 3D RPG Maker engine than people who stick around and keep it 2D.

MV3D is exceedingly simple to use and making a quality textureset for MV3D is easier than it is to make a quality 2D tileset like Celianna's.

I'm not talking about quality 2D tileset.
I'm talking about kids who draw on ms.paint and import them in show picture or draw a stick figure sprites and put them in the game. The kids only need to know that the sprite sheet is in 3x4 format, and the tileset is 48px per tile.

If you can do that easier in a 3D environment, how easy that would be?

I'm one of the many

I'm curious about you. And importantly, "the many".
I've seen nothing from your thread list other than animation resources (and I've visited your signatures). But I don't know, maybe you have a resource pack somewhere else that could make this certain plugin looks beautiful and not use RTP graphics. And I'm also curious about "the many" if they actually contributed to it.

Please surprise me.
And if your name becomes known as the contributor to make MV3D looks good (even better with an actual working sample game), I will certainly respect you.

And if you're not talking about MV3D, but rather, a built-in implementation of 3D that accepts bones and animations, then that's not that hard, too.

I'm talking about 3D that uses polygons and model, which is, apparently the plugin could handle it. But yes, that includes animation. Now I'm not sure where that comes from. I've tried 3D poser and it just hard to get it right. I've tried Blender, while it's fun, it just takes a lot of work than me to just edit 2D sprites. Why do you think it's not hard? is it from your personal experience?

That being said, out of the box 3D on the new rpg maker is the last thing i'm expecting.

Now, after all, you seemed so supportive on the 3D engine, why would doubt it?

----
in an unrelated note, I'm pretty aware that I haven't replied to Wave's post at page 14
please be patient.

 

[MikePjr]

As from the last Premium update of MV3D, released just about a week ago, you can indeed use .obj files. They're perfect for scenery, objects, etc. The downside is that they can't be animated, so they're really objects.

My bad.. you're right.
I didn't know cause i havn't checked it in awhile.. and yeah.. my bad for derailing.
If 3D isn't the thing we've been asking for for years.. then i guess control over layers would be it.
I'd hope tilesets can be what ever size i choose though... especially since i don't use auto tiles much.
If they fixed the auto tiles and moved back to the 3 equal squares by 3 equal squares like RMXP had, then i wouldn't bother with using tons of tile pieces to literally draw my maps with...
I tend to run out of tiles actually, because everything i'd use on the ground would be pieces as a work around for the god awful auto tiles setup.

I'd draw beaches and coastlines and trails and more using actual tiles, and not auto tiles.. and i'd run out and not have enough tiles for everything i need because of the limited tileset sizes..

 

[HalcyonDaze]

I honestly think that the mapping system is going to become 3 layers + doodads.

 

[Willibab]

I just want simple things like the ability to block attacks with shields, it seems like such a basic thing to have to have a plugin or have knowledge of scripting for.

 

[The Stranger]

@HalcyonDaze I'd love that! Yanfly's Doodads is so bloody good.

 

[JosephSeraph]

even people like that wanted to manipulate the engine and to make 2D than staying 3D

People want to achieve different things within the same framework. Some teams looked at the PS1 and said, "hey, what if we made a game entirely of beautifully crafted 2D assets?". Someone else, "I think it'd be cool to work with fully 3D environments and billboards for characters." Then someone else thought "nah, what if we worked with 2D, pre-rendered environments and overlaid 3D models on top?" and then someone else "Screw that! I'm going FULL 3D!"

There was never a moment in the PS1 lifespan where developers thought that 2D was better than 3D. It was always the cheaper alternative. Sony US didn't even want to port 2D games to the west, so we lost a lot of amazing titles because of that. What I'm saying is, all of these are great takes, and it depends on the authors themselves and what they're more comfortable with or what suits their project.

Now, if what you're saying is to make the RM engine have the capability of processing 3D, that could make more sense

MV already has, MV3D is what brings it to light from what I know. BTW MV3D is already an implementation of Babylon.js. This sort of stuff eludes me as I"m not a programmer, but basically, MV provided us with the framework to enable us to implement stuff like Babylon.js, for example. I'm sure the next RPG Maker will iterate and improve on the framework even if not touching on 3D stuff directly, by making it more compatible with modern solutions to that. AFAIK the Pixi.JS updates that we had through the MV lifespan greatly expanded upon the graphical capabilities we had at every update.

I would prefer it to be still a separate plugin

I agree with that. What I personally would love the most is for MV3D to become an official tool created in partnership with Degica/Kadokawa, with the budget allocated to fully support Dread and the development of the plugin. Also, having 3D implementation by default on RPG Maker would radically alter how the engine behaves and I'm not sure that's something we want. There's the distinction there, though: The technology/framework being there vs. it actually being implemented into the base engine.

I've seen nothing from your thread list other than animation resources

Well, you've seen the game Im working on, and the monster packs are linked in my signatures, as well. I've released resources in the community since 2009, although not very frequently. Nonetheless when I say "the many", I mention literally every artist that has released an asset in the community, commercial or otherwise. To leap from 2D tilesets to 3D environments, especially with a tool such as MV3D, is not hard at all, and the fact that it is 3D means that you don't need to fake elevation or perspective within the 2D tiles so the workflow becomes easier.
Celianna's Ancient Dungeons can be taken as-is into MV3D and it will look absolutely gorgeous, btw. At least, with the right lighting and resolution.

I'm talking about 3D that uses polygons and model, which is, apparently the plugin could handle it. But yes, that includes animation.

Yes, the plugin handles 3D that uses polygons. It creates polygons on the fly by reading parameters from the script, all that you need to do really is to paint a 2D map and the plugin interprets that and generates a mesh. You do also have the option to import models. You do not have the option to use models that have animation data.

As I've mentioned, anyone with 2D art knowledge can paint tilesets and dress the MV3D generated polygon mesh with them. I am not talking about having the community generate realistic characters with hundreds of animations to be imported into something like MV3D, but that's not what MV3D is about. (You can still do that by using pre-rendered realistic characters like Diablo's or PVGames', although that requires a good art direction or it'll stick out like a sore thumb.)

I've tried Blender, while it's fun, it just takes a lot of work than me to just edit 2D sprites. Why do you think it's not hard? is it from your personal experience?

The workflow is very different, with pros and cons when it comes to 2D. Firstly though, for most things you don't need to open blender at all, as I've mentioned in MV3D's case you just paint textures on a tileset and the game loads them. But when it comes to creating .OBJs, or animated characters especially, then it's a bit different and harder, but not necessarily more laborious. Creating a base mesh for a character will take more time than creating a sprite template. Creating the first animations will so, as well. These are some downs. But a 3D model created this way won't have to be accounted for for every direction, and the animation for one character can be reused for literally every other character in the game, with simple and quick tweaks to give them more personality if you want. So the initial workload is more intense, but it is diluted if you make an asset pack, or a game, that is big enough. 3D assets are easier to edit, scale, etc. as well. And when you do scale or edit, you won't need to do the same for every other frame of that character. You can easily make a character taller or chubbier by modifying and displacing a few vertices, go do that with pixel art and you'll have quite a bit more trouble. So yeah, it's... Different.

I'd say 2D initially is cheaper / easier to do, but the bigger the 3D project is, the more 3D wins over 2D in terms of feasibility.

Now, after all, you seemed so supportive on the 3D engine, why would doubt it?

I don't think they'll change the editor that much, and that would alienate a great part of the userbase.


What I really expect is: An improved framework that allows us to achieve stuff that's even more insane than MV3D, packed with an editor that's familiar but a touch improved. And I would REALLY love if Degica would get in touch with and financially support the development of MV3D, adopting it as an official RPG Maker product. That's, of course, if Dread wants it, of course.

Anyway woop....

 

[The Stranger]

I'm hoping for some quality of life features in the new engine. Things like being able to see move routes within the editor, so we don't have to count tiles; I think the console version has this.

 

[Milennin]

MV3D is exceedingly simple to use and making a quality textureset for MV3D is easier than it is to make a quality 2D tileset like Celianna's.

The reason why it has become so difficult to make quality tilesets for RPG Maker is because of higher resolutions being used. The more pixels that go into a tile, the more time and skill you need to be able to make it look nice. That's why I still prefer RM2K(3) RTP, because it's so much more newbie-friendly to edit and make stuff for that doesn't look bad, even if your skill level is relatively low.

 

[Musashi]

Interesting, being a fan for almost 20 years I had decided just recently to drop RPG Maker forever as an engine to make commercial games (my current one being my first and last), but let's see what the new version brings!
Honestly, if they don't add more mapping layers after all those years they just failed as developers, and I really believe that at least a XP-like mapping will be available in the new RM. Grid-free mapping would be perfect, but knowing their style I'd bet on a tileset editor built inside the engine instead, at most.
RPG Maker will always be a fun toy to play with and I'll always get the newest version for sure, but as a professional tool... I'm just hoping to see some improvements!

 

[Niten Ichi Ryu]

Weird... been a short while I felt dragged back towards RM and trying my hand at game making again. Now, I pop on forums, to check a bit and what? A new RM is coming? Are you telling me this is a sign?

 

[Kich]

I'm also very eager to know more about it.

As others also guessed, I think the feature that has been requested for years is the improved map editor.

This thread from 2017 created by Archeia tells me this is finally coming and it makes me even more thrilled.

I do not expect the current RPG Maker MV to have this. But if a new RM is ever in the works or if anyone wants a reason for an "RPG Maker Pro" please allow me to humor you the possibilities. This is a feature I always wanted RPG Maker to have.

 

[The Stranger]

@Niten Ichi Ryu It really has been a while since I last saw you posting here. If nothing else, the new RM is bringing people together. xD

 

[chalkdust]

Feature wishlist:

Native support for using any tile size in editor
Native support for pixel movement
Native support for off-grid "doodads"

 

[JosephSeraph]

The reason why it has become so difficult to make quality tilesets for RPG Maker is because of higher resolutions being used. The more pixels that go into a tile, the more time and skill you need to be able to make it look nice. That's why I still prefer RM2K(3) RTP, because it's so much more newbie-friendly to edit and make stuff for that doesn't look bad, even if your skill level is relatively low.

Indeed that's true! VX Ace's 32x32 tiles = 1024 individual pixels to account for. MV's 48x48 tiles = 2304 pixels to account for, more than double! The higher the resolution, the bigger the edge 3D gets over 2D, as well. But there's a threshold; get the resolution big enough and you can stop worrying about the individual pixel and treat each tile as a painting, MV's somewhat there already.

But yeah, if you want to make good looking MV/new RM games at a budget for graphics, I definitely recommend using half or third resolution tiles. tripled 16p tiles or doubled 24p ones. Doubled 24p is quite a unique look, to boot.

And if your concern is resolution clash with the UI, there are very elegant solutions for that; Resolution clash is only ever a problem if it's unintentional, confusing or inconsistent. If you set a consistent style for your UI/Ingame clash, it looks super elegant. Case in point:

Spoiler

Record Keeper is probably the easiest to see this in action. Mobile games usually struggle with Pixel Art but RK ties it all together very elegantly, minimizing the pixel-on-pixel edges that characterizes bad resolution clash.

Tactics Ogre is much lower resolution, but it achieved a really elegant look by juxtaposing a 1:1 UI on top of 2:1 game graphics.

edit: I exceeded my allowance to use the word "elegant" for this month.