A New RPG Maker draws near! Command?

[HalcyonDaze]

3 or more Map Layers like XP (this is the feature I'm thinking Fuzzy is alluding to) and/or unlimited tilesets.

I never thought about that before, but being able to draw from unlimited tilesets onto one map would be amazing, and save so much time clipping and pasting-in stuff into the B, C, and D slots.

 

[Bastrophian]

Counting the seconds till early tomorrow! XwwwX

 

[Andar]

but being able to draw from unlimited tilesets onto one map would be amazing,

lagging your games to hell would be amazing to you?

there was a reason why the unlimited tilesets of RMXP were removed, and that was that an unlimited tileset needs unlimited RAM - a lot of people had problems both mapping and playing simply because they made their tilesets too large and both loading times and lag for moving on the maps (both in game and in editor) went up a lot.

 

[JosephSeraph]

While that's true, it's still taking power away from the developer and a warning that a tileset is over the threshold should be enough.

 

[Juanita Star]

Thinking and thinking... I do hope the RTP takes another style. After all, you can change tilesets to your liking and use MV or even Ace if you want...hopefully.

 

[tale]

@Juanita Star It's possible to change tilesets from MV to VX/Ace with a plugin (prototype) and folder & files setup. (without resizing)
VX Tilesets Compatibility

Maybe a button in the editor to make it optional though. Lil' extra work to prepare vx_tilesets folder.

 

[VisitorsFromDreams]

lagging your games to hell would be amazing to you?

there was a reason why the unlimited tilesets of RMXP were removed, and that was that an unlimited tileset needs unlimited RAM - a lot of people had problems both mapping and playing simply because they made their tilesets too large and both loading times and lag for moving on the maps (both in game and in editor) went up a lot.

That's an issue developer side, not an issue engine side. Optimization is something all developers should be handling themselves through playtesting, not something that should be done through deliberate limitations in the engine.

 

[Shaz]

If developers know what they're doing and only use tilesets up to a certain size, what is the point of the engine allowing more? That would be adding a "feature" that nobody would ever use, or if anyone did use it, it'd cause problems, and then everyone would blame the makers of the engine for allowing it when they know it shouldn't be used.

 

[K2loid]

If developers know what they're doing and only use tilesets up to a certain size, what is the point of the engine allowing more? That would be adding a "feature" that nobody would ever use, or if anyone did use it, it'd cause problems, and then everyone would blame the makers of the engine for allowing it when they know it shouldn't be used.

That's why the original feedback thread suggested that, if there isn't a workaround to the requirements, it'd still need a cap a hell of a lot bigger than nine. I agree that unlimited introduces a lot of problems, but just having more than 4 object slots or slightly expanding floor tiles so there's more room for floor variety is common sense. More often than I'd like I've had a tileset collection that is just 1 or 2 sheets short of a complete set, so I have to make a nearly identical map with less usable tiles, sometimes making a pastiche of them by hand, for something that should take 5 seconds.

It's measuring the effort to organize resources against "you think this engine has a versatile map editor? cute. have fun parallax mapping idiot"

 

[Parallax Panda]

Problem of the tileset limitations is that it’s very specific.

You can have x number of floor auto tiles, x ni,ber of animated auto tiles, this much space for A5 tiles (The A5 tikes are my favorites and they’re so few...)

That aside, so it’s Thursday 08:10 Tokyo time, how many more hours until the announcements are suppose to drop? I don’t keep track of U.S. time...

 

[Tome571]

Just make it a line in the code that starts as 5 or 9, then a plugin or code edit can go in and change to whatever they want.

There's always some random use case for something like that.

Also, PCs have increased just a wee bit in power since XP. Have you done the bunny spawner for PIXI and see how many objects can be created without lag?

Bunnies!!!

 

[Restart]

If developers know what they're doing and only use tilesets up to a certain size, what is the point of the engine allowing more?

You're making the assumption that there is only one possible maximum acceptable tileset size, which doesn't change at all under any circumstances.

If, on the other hand, different maps, game setups, and computing environments cause different tileset sizes to have different impacts on performance, you end up with two choices for an arbitrary limit:

A: Set the maximum tileset size for the worst case scenario (so, mobile phone, lots of other stuff cluttering up ram, et cetera). This ensures that your tileset will never be too large to cause problems, but also means that in any other case (like running on a real PC instead of a phone), you're making the tool less useful in exchange for no gain in performance

B: Set an arbitrary limit that includes more tiles than the worst case. Now your limit doesn't prevent low-end systems or cluttered maps from experiencing performance issues and also makes it less useful in higher end systems or sparse maps.


Probably the best option would be to select a deployment target when the project is created, and set a soft default limit based on what the target is (so it would give an informed recommendation, not an outright prohibition)

 

[HalcyonDaze]

In addition, the cheapest, lowest-end modern PC is exponentially more powerful than the highest-end gaming PC from 2004. Or even when VX was released in 2007. Back when "a lot" of RAM was 2GB. I don't think 90% of modern laptops and desktops would struggle with having to load 500MB worth of png files.

Plus, as others have said, why place arbitrary limits on things? If someone wants to make a game overloaded with unnecessary crap and it performs like crap on everyone's computers, then that's their prerogative as the artist - at least in my humble opinion.

As Restart said, the user should be responsible for deciding on a platform at the start of the project, and working within the confines of a mobile device, if that is the platform they choose.

 

[Andar]

Plus, as others have said, why place arbitrary limits on things? If someone wants to make a game overloaded with unnecessary crap and it performs like crap on everyone's computers, then that's their prerogative as the artist - at least in my humble opinion.

Target audience

Personally I would agree and simply not use excess data - but on the other hand I first learned how to program and work when home computers considered 32KB RAM to be state-of-the-art.
The RPG-Makers however are targeted not only at professionals, but also at kiddies who simply don't understand the meaning of the word "limitations".
For those people it is never their own mistake if something doesn't work, it always has to be an engine bug that has to be fixed yesterday by the company.

And for those people it is indeed better if the things that everyone with some experience would never try are limited and forbidden.
Like the reason for the only case where MV is intentionally more limited than Ace (everywhere else MV has only increased options): the map size
mobile devices can't handle larger maps due to their limited RAM, that is why the mapsize went from 500x500 (Ace) to 250x250 (MV). Any PC-deployment would have no problems handling the larger maps (it would probably allow even greater maps), but the same maps deployed to mobile would cause problems.
But no inexperienced user would have accepted that - even now they claim that mobile deployment from MV doesn't work despite the fact that in itself it works, only those who claim otherwise tried to force games of PC-sizes on the mobile with much more limited resources.

And that is why the limitations need to be in place - and why I suggested to make anything that goes beyond them hidden options only if they need to have them.

 

[Arise501]

The program should not be limited just because some children exceed capacity, it is their problem if it does not work well.

If they are unable to understand why the game is slowing down, they should study more, not cut the program.


(Google translator)

 

[Restart]

But no inexperienced user would have accepted that - even now they claim that mobile deployment from MV doesn't work despite the fact that in itself it works, only those who claim otherwise tried to force games of PC-sizes on the mobile with much more limited resources.

Sounds like putting in arbitrary thresholds didn't actually solve the problems with inexperienced mobile users, but nevertheless caused a significant loss in usefulness for advanced and pc users.

A more effective system should be implemented for the new maker version instead. Different default soft limits based on your deployment target is an obvious one, another is testing for potential performance bottlenecks pre-deployment, and warning specifically about what things could cause a problem. More in-software guidance, better user awareness of tradeoffs; basically, just a better user interface on the front end.

Of course, on the back end, having a more optimized engine would also eliminate a lot of issues as well; modern smartphones are fully capable of running playstation games in emulator (which is far less efficient than running on original hardware), let alone SNES or Genesis games. I don't think that novice creators have any firm requirements for their games that would render them impossible to put on a playstation or snes. If the software is set up so that doing efficient things is difficult, this is a failure of the software, not the user.

Basically, if someone is aiming to make a game that's like pokemon or neophyte or final fantasy or chrono trigger and put it on their phone (which I'm sure most novice mobile users have as a general aim), RPG Maker ought to proactively support that goal.

MV put in a couple of slapdash numerical limits, and offered no direction for mobile deployment - which is (as we have seen) quite ineffective. Instead of doubling down on a failed design choice, RPG Maker NEXT should take a different approach.

 

[Shaz]

The program should not be limited just because some children exceed capacity, it is their problem if it does not work well.

If they are unable to understand why the game is slowing down, they should study more, not cut the program.


(Google translator)

There are many people on this forum, not just children, who request help because their game is lagging. Your statement implies that everyone should just study more. RPG Maker is touted as being easy to use, which would not be the case if everyone had to study some level of computer science to understand the limits they should arbitrarily place on the games they are making.

 

[Knightmare]

Maybe I shouldn't have used the term "unlimited tilesets" but there should be options for more, I understand having limits will increase overall performance but my main point was having more layers and being able to use more tiles and tilesets per map. I'm totally ok with having limits just don't make it too limited like the current crop.

Yeah, i was here around the launch of MV.. i started off making things.. but ultimately i got a bit annoyed with the funky voodoo work arounds for things i wanted to do.. so i kinda took off and left for awhile... stopped using MV..
Came back when they made the announcement for the announcements lol..
I'm not even actually excited at all.. no expectations..
If it's not the leap or jump i want in an RPG Maker, i'm gonna pass on it.

I remember you and @Shaz the most, I somehow remember talking @Shaz to go back to her squirrel avatar after she changed it and I'm flattered it's still here to this day! I think you and I agreed on quite a few things. I'm really excited for this but I really like RPG Maker and am always excited for the newest produce. The only change I didn't care for much was XP to VX but VX Ace blew XP (and VX vanilla) out of the water imo and MV was a step up from VX Ace, so I have no real reason to doubt that this (MV Ace? MV Pro?) will be a step up or two from MV. I do understand your concerns and I hope when more info is released that it will be something that is pleasing to you and many others.

 

[Restart]

There are many people on this forum, not just children, who request help because their game is lagging. Your statement implies that everyone should just study more. RPG Maker is touted as being easy to use, which would not be the case if everyone had to study some level of computer science to understand the limits they should arbitrarily place on the games they are making.

Exactly, RPG Maker should provide easy-to-understand feedback in order to proactively address game performance (including things like having the ability to do simulated testing on weaker computers). If someone tries to deploy their game to the phone, and the problem is they have too many tiles on one particular map, ideally they should know that their issue is those tiles (and not, for instance, the fact that RPG maker isn't preloading sound effects, and the file loading is the source of the lag they're experiencing).

Rather than forcing through a preemptive arbitrary limit on the game making side - one that doesn't address many common performance issues - the engine should provide users with the tools and information they need in order to recognize the source of performance issues when they arise.

Of course, that's a stopgap that should only happen after the engine itself has been optimized for fast performance. For instance, by default hue shifting animations in rmmv can cause lag spikes. It is preferable to actually fix the problem - by efficiently applying hue changes as a pixi filter - than it is to yell at end users 'you shouldn't do hue shifts on animations, you stupid animal'.

 

[TheoAllen]

Have you guys ever try to use literally all the tiles in the tileset in a single map? I don't.
The unlimited tileset is the shortest way of saying "I'm lazy to optimize my game so I put literally every single tileset so I can use it in every map". An unlimited tileset is unnecessary.