A New RPG Maker draws near! Command?

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Tea's Jams

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It hasn't stopped shocking me how negative some people are about something they spent absolutely no time or effort in making.

I just want to say, thank you Degica, Kadokowa and all the people who worked on making this new engine a reality. There are plenty of us who sincerely appreciate your work. <3 <3 <3
 

rue669

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It hasn't stopped shocking me how negative some people are about something they spent absolutely no time or effort in making.

I just want to say, thank you Degica, Kadokowa and all the people who worked on making this new engine a reality. There are plenty of us who sincerely appreciate your work. <3 <3 <3
Couldn't agree more. Excellent post Tea.
 

Wavelength

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Well... True it would give us a place to sell to earn a buck, but if you do it for a living, then a buck isn't enough. You already need to sell about twice as much as you want to earn, because of taxes. Add a 30% cut to a third party. I don't know high much tax you pay in USA (or whereover you might be), but here you 21% of selling price of anything you sell as tax. Add that to the fee, that is 51%. That leaves me with 49%... for now

Than comes income tax. Of that 49% I got left, tax takes another 35% or so. That leaves me with about 18% of the sales, while the reseller makes 30%. The reseller would make about twice as much on my work as I do. Even though I only got my work to sell, they sell work of 1000s of users.

I would need to sell for $7,500 per month, to make $1,350. And that is the absolute minimum I need to eat, pay by bills and live. Because I am not left with 70%, I am left with 18%
:p
Based on your response, I feel quite sure that you have never done this before. All of the taxes you mention stack multiplicatively with each other (and with the platform fee), not additively.

The 21% you refer to in Netherlands is Value Added Tax. If you are already paying 30% of the sales to the developer, they would pay 6.3% (30% * 21% VAT), and you would pay 14.7% (70% * 21% VAT).

In practice, most platforms (such as Steam) will charge the VAT (like they charge Sales Tax in the USA) to the consumer for you. So you are making 70% of the purchase price, and the platform makes 30%.

Finally, the income taxes you're paying are based off of what you actually made. So if it's 35%, then you pay 35% of the 70% that you got to keep (= 24.5%) - in the end, your disposable income is 45.5% of the total price, not 18%, and by the way the "reseller" (platform) gets to keep a whopping 30% * 65% = 19% of the total price. You made well over twice as much as the platform did.

Even in a high-tax, high-service country like Netherlands, you'd only need to sell $2,970 worth of digital assets to earn $1,350 per month. Without a platform like an in-game asset store, you'd still need to sell $2,080 per month in order to make $1,350 after the gov't takes its 35%. (Not to mention you'll have to cover site hosting fees, credit card vendor fees, etc.)

I think you'll agree that it's far easier to sell $2,970 with a central market that includes all potential buyers, than it is to sell $2,080 in a badly fragmented market where most potential customers will never find your stuff and you have to spend as much time creating and marketing your online presence as you spend creating assets. And if you don't agree - then I challenge you to get out there now, make some assets for Ace or MV, and try to even sell $2,000 in a year.

An in-engine store for the next version of RPG Maker would absolutely be able to justify taking a 30% cut, and I truly believe it would still be an enormous net positive for both game designers and asset-makers!
 
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Andar

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So... Yeah, 30% is a real big cut for the indie branche. To big for the little guy.
no, actually it's low in comparison.

Every merchant needs to double the prize in order to be able to live from the results after all payments and taxes. For example if a bookstore sells a book for 10$, then the wholesale company supplying that store gets about 5-6$ from that sale. If the merchant had to pay more than that (which means a 40+% fee for himself) for the book, then he would no longer be able to pay his own rent, his assistents etc as well as taxes.
The wholesale company has it's own costs to cover, so a maximum of about 3$ per book goes to the printing company. And from that usually 1.5$ per book sold goes to the author who has written it.

And the same goes for any other product. The author or programmer usually gets 10-20% (and 20% would be extremely lucky for the best of them) of the final price if he goes through any professional production sequence. However those companies also handle the marketing and distribution, resulting in tens of thousands of sales instead of hundreds of sales, and that still nets the author more money than if he tried to go direct sales.

And by the way - your mathematics are wrong. income tax goes on the amount you receive, not on the final price. 35% income tax on 49% final price means you keep 32% for yourself, not 18%

EDIT: ninja'd
 

Mojo907

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just as I think I got a hold of what I want to do with MV....thanks....
 

JohnDoeNews

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I did not mean to start a discussion. Indeed, I never solde my stuff yet... And tax is certainly not my point of expertise.

What I am good at, is math. And the 18% is the result of a very... uhmm... quick calculation, of the top of my head. I did the math while I was writing the post, so I might have had some loose ends here and there. Still I think it is really hard to make that step to "going commercial" if you lose that much on fees and tax.

That 10% to 20% you talk about... That is when you got a publisher, right? The thing with publishers is: They take care of the selling. A good publisher, actively promotes your game. Because if they sell your game, they make money. Resellers make money, no matter what game you buy. As long as you buy from them. The dev. has to do all the promotions themselves, if they use a reseller.

However, this is horribly off topic. :p I did not expect to be quotes so many times. It is hard to keep track of it all. (I wish I got that much response when I am right...) :p


Anyhow... Still excited about the new release. Yay. :p
 

Tai_MT

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I just have a couple things to say. The first one is me just being a slight jerk.

1. I am finding it amusing how many people are misusing the word "bloat" as something interchangeable with "lazy" or "out of touch with the current market and so don't know what the Industry Standards are".

2. I think we sort of have a right to ask for more customization options considering MV sold for $70-$75 on release and most of that money was probably put towards paying the artists since much of the engine was unchanged from the previous iteration.

---
To the first point, if you want to know what "Bloat" actually is... Go look up "Star Citizen". THAT is bloat. People requesting features that most people on these forums change for every game they create... That's not bloat. That is "necessary".

That is to say, the purpose of "plugins" and "scripts" should NEVER be to add basic functionality to the engine. That is, if 90% of RPG's on the market have a feature... RPG Maker should allow the dev's who buy the product to implement this feature without a plugin or a script. It is an industry standard and I would love if the company adhered to Industry Standards.

The purpose of a plugin or a script should be to do something that is incredibly unique to your game. That is to say, something that less than 20% of the users of the program would ever even think to request. It would be bloat if we added in all of these plugins. But, making all the customization options and common RPG features that Yanfly's plugins cover... I'm sorry, but those are Industry Standards and they should 100% be in the next RPG Maker. The only reason not to include them is for reason 1 above. Namely, "Lazy" or "Out of Touch with current market trends".

To the second point: As a consumer who is absolutely willing to drop $100 or $120 on the next RPG Maker (despite how much I complain about the programs, I am madly in love with them and do prefer them over any other Game Making program I've tried. I criticize you because I know you can be better and I want you to be, 'cause I want to love you more), I am unwilling to drop much money on the next maker when so many standard features are missing and so much "backwards programming" exists in the current iteration.

If you were to ask me if I wanted to buy RPG Maker MV right now... I'd say, "If it were $30, sure". In market with other game making programs, including RPG Making programs... $70-$75 is quite a bit steep for what's on offer here. You can only charge what people are willing to pay for a product or service.

I am not looking for a maker that caters specifically to me and specifically to what I want. I am looking for a maker that is as updated as possible and covers as much customization as possible as well as includes as many art assets as possible. I would pay more for these customization options as well as art assets. I really would. I do not want to get plugins or scripts for these customization options. I do not want to buy DLC that doesn't fit the overall aesthetic and clashes with all other DLC.

Unless you are going to guarantee me that there will be DLC in the style of the RTP which will increase how many monsters there are, how many vehicles there are, how many weapon animations, etcetera... Then no, I'm not interested. Since it's been proven that there is zero commitment to releasing much DLC in the RTP style (aside from tilesets, anyway), then you need to increase how much we're actually given with the RTP. Yes, I want more than 40 monsters. I want more than 8 vehicles. I want more than a dozen monster sprites. I want more than 8 chests. I want more than 3 doors. I would rather pay "up front" for this stuff than HOPE it drops as DLC.

I am a customer willing to drop a lot of money on the next RPG Maker. I just want assurances that I'm getting my money's worth.

If all we're doing is, "same RPG Maker as last time, with 3 or so new features", then no, it's not worth the money. Not unless you're only charging $40-$50.

I want a complete overhaul. I want the dev staff to go through every iteration of RPG Maker and take the best features from each one and slam them into the new one and then add all of Yanfly's plugins as part of the basic structure of the program so we can use them as options. I want them to increase art assets by 250%. I want them to make the program as "user friendly" as possible. In short, there should not exist a tutorial for how to make "terrain damage" with the engine. Or "trap damage using Region ID". If you have to create a tutorial for this stuff, it's not user friendly enough and is too convoluted. Go back to the drawing board.

I would also love for the Help Menu to actually explain stuff to the user. In every iteration of the program, the Help Menu is absolutely useless and worthless. It gives you a basic explanation that you'd give a 5 year old, and then no examples of what they're talking about. Imagine trying to explain Quantum Mechanics to a 5 year old using nothing but a picture book, and that's what the Help Menu is like.
---
Anyway, yeah, there's a huge list of things the new RPG Maker should have. Alas, it will probably have none of those things. It will probably be another $70 "slight improvement" like the next iPhone model. If we're also very, very lucky... It won't have any features stripped out from the previous iteration as well.
 

cthulhusquid

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How long will it take to make your game? Even if the new engine is out in a few months, it will take a few months more to iron out all the bugs and have plugins and extra assets created for it. I think if you believe you'll finish your game in under 8-10 months, it's probably worth just going ahead with MV. Maybe do non-development stuff for a while and keep an eye out for sales to get it cheaper.
I honestly have no idea how long it will take to make, as I'm also making 3 other games at the same time (which amazingly have active development instead of wishful thoughts). I do have a chunk of the mechanics and the general story figured out, but obviously everything would have to be implemented.
 

Parallax Panda

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@Tai_MT
I hear you on wanting more (quality) RTP. We might not be in the majority but I too would be willing to pay a lot more than 70$ for the next RM... if the price was justified. I'm a grownup past 30 with a full-time job though, so for me, even dropping "a few hundred dollars" on something I really like and think is worth it is not really a problem.
But at the same time, I realize that a huge chunk of RM's user base is probably something like 14-25 yrs old, and kids/college students might not be able to pay ~200$ up front as easily as I could.

The solution to this, if I was the one who had veto on what the next RM should be and what it should cost, would be to do this:

Have 2 versions of the next RM. One cheaper and one more expensive. Technically the engines should be exactly the same but the more expensive version should come with extended RTP. More battlers, sprites, music, BGM's, ME's and SE's. Maybe even an extra tileset or two. Personally though, more battlers would probably be the nr.1 priority for me since that's the thing I think the community would benefit the most of.

What would make this very viable is that all that extra RTP content could also be broken down and split into DLC's that those who did not buy the expensive version of the engine would be able to buy in parts later on. But buying everything seperate would probably be a wee bit more expensive since that's how it always is.

I'm no market genius but I do think they'd make the money they would have to invest into making that extra RTP back quite easily by also making DLC's out of it. In fact, they kinda did this with MV. We who pre-ordered got the "essential" DLC pack bundled and it was later released as an DLC for others to buy as well. But I guess I'd want them to go even further and have the expensive version be like... I dunno... 150$+ (twice the price?) and bundle a LOT more this time.

So, give us an expanded RTP version please~ :kaojoy:
 

Milennin

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I also agree that "bloat" sounds like a bad excuse to let the devs get away with removing features that were part of previous Makers. If anything, we should be getting more, not less. I'm looking forward to see what's next, but if it's like "MV but slightly better", I think I'll be skipping it. I've still got a project in the works for MV, and don't really see the need to upgrade right now, unless the next Maker is a significant step up from it. I mean, MV, honestly, wasn't that huge of an upgrade over VXA, but at least it got mobile support as a big selling point (even if that mobile support was absolutely barebones).

I don't see what they could do for the next Maker that would convince me to get it right away, unless it looks like they significantly improve on features. I don't need or expect things like 3D graphics or action combat system, but I do want to see them looking at what plugins people commonly use and implement those as base features. The default menus in RPG Maker always looked kind of bad and have zero customisability, it's annoying having to rely on plugins to work on these kind of things.
Also better mobile support, please. Giving the option for mobile-friendly menus and controls would be a good start.
 

Zeriab

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This is exciting :D

I do hope you will deal with the silly 999 map limit.
It's probably super easy to up the limit to 9999 or 99999 maps (was for MV) and it'll prevent the issue of people doing sub-optimal map design because they fear to hit the limit.
*hugs*
 
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I still hope someday there's a 2 tier version of RPGM, a basic version with RTP for hobbyists and a pro version with no RTP or stock audio but with deeper tools.
 

Shaz

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I honestly have no idea how long it will take to make, as I'm also making 3 other games at the same time (which amazingly have active development instead of wishful thoughts).
lol - my suggestion would be to keep going with your other 3 games and continue to flesh out the new one without any development work. By the time you finish all of that, the new engine will probably be released, most bugs ironed out, and heaps of plugins and resources available :D
 

TheoAllen

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On asset store topic:
I don't doubt there would be some challenges in crossing language barriers (especially for plugin descriptions; less so for audiovisual resources), and some work to do in achieving the critical mass. But the way I think of it is - what better way is there to bring the community together and get a critical mass of momentum for a one-stop place to get your resources could there be, than to have the store in the Engine itself?! There's a reason it's my #1 wish! I really do believe this Asset Store would be the best-case scenario, rather than having thousands of amazing resources floating around in the ether where most people can't find them, they never make any money, and eventually they become unavailable because someone didn't pay for site hosting fees or something.
Your last sentence is funny and so true at the same time and I'm also guilty for that. A little slight off-topic but letting it die slowly is a "polite" way to fade away from the community for whatever reason. Deliberately taking it down would leave the question "what happened?" to the community. But if it was a dead link and all, you could just pretend that you have a better life moved on and that was (un)fortunate that the link/site died.

Now on the topic of the asset store itself. I get where you came from. And if they wanted to implement the store, the best start would be to integrate the RMW store first. However, they also sell the DLC on Steam (heck, the main engines are on Steam as well for more potential software buyers). I'm not suuuure now how that could work with the store. If they want to start the store, they better be prepared and I don't think right now they're prepared enough for it.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike the asset store idea. I'm just not optimistic enough for that to happen anytime soon (or at all).

On page script eval condition:
We're both programmers and scripters, and if I had to guess who was better at it I'd say you are, so I have no problem deferring to your opinion where you feel confident - that it could create a higher processing load for event-condition checking. However, it also means a quantum leap forward as far as what designers can do with eventing.

I'd hope that the devs would explore adding the full array of conditions (from Conditional Branches) into the options for Event Page Conditions, and judge how much it affects performance in comparison to the massive utility it provides all designers.
Well, page condition eval script is not entirely impossible. And actually, as a designer, it is your responsibility to "manually refresh the map". Here is an implementation that could work. Consider that page eval condition exists (adding the condition is easy to implement, refreshing isn't) and you want the event page to switch if the actor HP below a certain value. For whatever minigame you have on that specific map.
  • Consider you have a map hazard that needs to avoid. And your HP drops if you make a contact with it.
  • On the contact, you reduce the actor HP using event commands as well as calling $game_map.need_refresh = true, that will manually refresh the map, and the page will be switched.
The problem is now you need to it manually whereas RPG Maker should handle it for you. I believe this is what you have asked. Maybe you just didn't encounter a case when the Hime script just fails to do its job.

Adding more conditions is a more reasonable request. As for now, one thing that drives me crazy is the fact that variable condition only lets you set it to a certain value and above. Why no other choices like exact value or below? Granted, the workaround exists, but it's inconvenient. I see no reason why they need to keep it that way.

On event x event trigger topic:
A separate plugin included in the download would be a very reasonable compromise - the only part I don't like about that is that I think it would be even less "idiot-proof" because now there is no interface for picking (for example) what event graphic the event needs to collide with in order to trigger. You would have to type it in a certain format, and get the name exactly right. People would get unexpected behavior (and non-behavior) all over the place! That's why I make several of my suggestions - they are features that would be tough to use in even the best-made plugin, but very easy if integrated into the editor itself.
Exactly this is the reason why they need the editor itself should be editable/moddable. However, I have no idea how to make the editor itself editable. The editable editor itself has many challenges on its own that I'm also not optimistic enough for that to happen. The only editable editor I know was just Unity. You drop the script component to the object and it will have an exact property field you defined in the C# script.

On the battle command topic:
First of all, I am assuming that this Maker is using a mostly-new code base, like XP, MV, and even to some extent Ace (with its :command-centric menus and use of skills for Attack/Guard instead of hard-coded behavior) did. If the idea was to almost entirely recycle MV's battle and menu code, then yes, it becomes a less appealing idea.
If they're going to use a different base code or a complete revamp, by all means, be my guest and surprise me.

Secondly, it would only add complexity for users who want to deal with that complexity. The basic menus that you could find in MV now would be the Defaults that come on the Battle Commands tab (just like the actors or elements that come with the game). If you like it as is, you could ignore that tab and never touch it. If there's literally one little thing you want to add or remove (maybe there are no Escapes in your game), you can do that easily without learning code or installing plugins. If you want to go wild with new commands, you can do that too.
Now I think I get what you're trying to say and I see the appeal of it. That left the question of how much you can customize the battle command. This needs a further brainstorm and I don't think this time, this moment, this place is at the right timing.

On auto-backup topic:
I definitely believe you that there would be some technical risk in making an Auto-Backup System, and I don't have the technical expertise (in file-management and saving) to be able to assess how much. I added it to my wishlist (knowing it's done in lots of programs, such as the OpenOffice suite) in the hopes that people who could assess this might find it would do a lot more good than harm.
I'm also no expert on OS-related process (I'm only good at programming logic and algorithm). But as for office software, it is probably easier because they only handle a single file. The entire RPG Maker project? it has many files. To be fair, it is not entirely impossible. All you need to do is to make the RPG Maker software to have "service" run on the background to constantly check and if a certain time passed, make a clone ONLY the data files. Because that is where the important thing matters. If those files corrupt, you have to start over. But if only the assets are corrupted, you can put a placeholder. No need to have the entire project. However, I also have no idea how hard it would be to make a service to do so.

On resource stripper topic:
Essentially, the Resource Stripper Tool would look at any audiovisual resources you use in your editor (event graphics, battles, tilesets, BGMs specified in maps or events, etc.), any plugins you have enabled (ON), any audiovisual resources you have in your Plugins or event Script lines (so the string Graphics/Battler/Monster.png would qualify that Monster graphic as being used), and include all System graphics (windowskins, iconset, etc.) as well - and only copy those resources into the game's deployed package.
There is no easy way to tell something is defined in the script code is "file used in this project". My example actually was the worst rebel code you could get and except the scripter is extremely new to programming or they simply hardcode everything on their project and has no plan to actually release the plugin to the public, you would not going to see it very often.

Remember, plugins are just plain text files and by doing so you're essentially scanning text files hoping to see something that you wouldn't see.

The one place I can think of it wouldn't be able to catch are when resource strings are handled dynamically by code; such as "Graphics/Battler/Mon" + monster_number + ".png". And that's fine! If you're that advanced of a user (you are The 1%) or you've chosen to use plugins that need to play poorly with the Resource Stripper, you can choose not to use the tool (it's an option on the Deployment window, not a mandate), and remove assets from the package yourself before distributing.
The average scripters (in VXAce) use this. They don't directly write "Graphics/Battlers/" + name but they use a built-in function. See 'Cache' in the VXA script and you probably get what I mean.

Early project files are 200-400MB in size rather than just a few MB. This makes collaboration a pain, as well as getting early feedback from people. Not to mention sample project files for plugins. Who wants to download half a gig to see a single mechanic in action?
This is funny and I can relate it so well. Probably one of the huge list of the reasons why I still like VXAce.

Completed games are bloated with unused resources, because the designers are tentative to play around with removing them - just one mistake and your game will crash 15 hours in!! As far as I'm aware, this bloat negatively affects performance (in addition to wasting the player's drive space).
Wasting the player's drive space is true, but I'm not sure about the performance hit. I mean if it just sitting there unloaded, why would it hit performance?

A Resource Stripper would solve all of these issues. We could include a large library of resources in the game's initial setup in the editor, and not worry about the deployed game's project size becoming bloated.
To be fair, A resource stripper is a valid idea. However, they should state it clearly that it's not a silver bullet especially when it comes to detecting files used in plugins. It just there is no easy way to do so. And don't get me wrong, I actually made my own script to list the resource used in the VXAce project with addition to stop the game from crashing when a resource is missing while also record what is missing in a separate text file so I could look it up.

Now give back my two hours!
 

Cyberhawk

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Yo, I'm hopeful we move on from plain Chibi style battlers tho. MV enemies look way to goofy for my liking. I ended up resizing a lot of RM2K3 battlers and replacing them in MV. Also hopeful that this has a smash bros ultimate concept feel to it (Whether or not Smash5 has the best game of all of them is another discussion entirely.) Where the intent is being the absolute best of maker that has everything that was well received from every previous maker and QoL changes that make it accessible to everyone. Not an MV2.
 

BloodletterQ

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I wonder if SV Actors may finally get real walking sprites rather than just sliding.
 

JosephSeraph

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That is to say, the purpose of "plugins" and "scripts" should NEVER be to add basic functionality to the engine.
While that is true, several of the requests in this thread are about stuff like "tactical/action battle systems", "pixel movement", 3D or other functionality that is not baseline. RPG Maker needs to be a framework. Anything that exists within it must not get in the way of the user. Having a tactical battle system hardcoded in the base engine would get in the way of any user that's not making a tactical RPG.

So that's the distinction to keep in mind. New features are welcome, but only stuff that is baseline; anything that's specific to a project should be a plugin and not base engine.

The purpose of a plugin or a script should be to do something that is incredibly unique to your game. That is to say, something that less than 20% of the users of the program would ever even think to request.
Wrong. The purpose of a plugin or script should be to do something that is not integrated with the base engine for the aforementioned reasons. Trying to make every feature that 20%+ of the users of the program has ever thought about something that's deployed within the base engine is pure insanity. Giving that to us as free, or even paid, DLC, would be an act of generosity.

I want a complete overhaul.
It's a complete overhaul in the base framework / backbone / code that makes the engine run. Even if it superficially looks the same, it's still something new that gives us a large amount of new options. If you don't need them, then you shouldn't buy the new RPG Maker.
MV might feel similar to Ace, but things have been achieved within it that, because of the updated framework, could hardly have been achieved with Ace.
I have a hunch that the new MV will look even more similar (superficially) to MV but will give us a ton of power, and it's technology that the devs are now familiar with and could greatly improve and polish (unlike 5 years ago when they released MV)


But yeah, my guess is that the new RM will be a rebuild/heavy improvement over MV, with the team going back to the drawing board and rebuilding the engine from scratch with the acquired expertise, and technological improvement, of 5 years dealing with JavaScript, to deliver a product that is sturdier, more modern, more compatible, easier to program in, while delivering a familiar toolset.



Am I the minority who like the chibi sprite more?
I have a love/hate relationship with it. As in, I love VX's chibi style, but I hate MV's, lol. WHY DID THEY HAVE TO HAVE NOSES, WHY DID THEIR EYES HAVE TO HAVE WHITE ON BOTH SIDES IT LOOKS ODDLY UNCOMFORTABLY REALISTIC it bothers me a lot lmao
 
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Personally I'm not terribly fond of the chibi sprites, since it makes it harder to at a glance see if a character is a child or an adult. MV's chibis kind of all look like children, even alongside the actual child graphics. It's why I try to use tall sprites when I can, it makes distinguishing child characters from adult characters a lot easier.
 
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A bit mixed because I haven't even finished a single project on MV.

I tweeted about it but I hope they allow plugins or allow you to do an RPG system similar to Paladin's Quest. If they manage to go the extra mile and make it 3D? Could be interesting to see a plugin for Legend of Legaia-style battles as well. I'm not saying the systems they have are bad, but letting people have more varieties of playstyles in the next RPGMaker would be a fun thing for people to experiment with and not have to hunt down a plugin made by the fans!

I do also hope the Character Generator gives you more variety. Hunting down a sprite artist to get the original intent you want down can be a bit bothersome for both the custom sprite artist in question and the RPG maker who wants to make characters.

EDIT: The chibis in MV are a bit funky. I miss the ones in VX to be honest lol. Though seeing all the responses from JosephSeraph, I should probably rethink what would make me pickup the new RPGMaker. Fingers crossed we can migrate MV-made projects into the new RPGMaker safely?
 
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made a bio for the protag in my project!
Beggar : "I haven't eat for days..."
Kid : "Just do crime! You will get daily necessity for free in prison~"
Stream is a bit late but will be live shortly with some game development! Feel free to drop by!
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