A reflection about this subforum

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Simientes

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Hi everyone!

First of all, I don't really want to create a conflict with this post, so I want to be clear that im asking in a humbling way (I will try to explain later)
I've thinking a lot about something that is related to a rule indicated in this forum wich says "We do not allow politics or religious talks."
My first impression is that we all know: that politics and religion talks (even in my country used to be football haha) tend to make room for discussions that end up in insults or other kind of verbal violence.

With that in mind, i ask to myself "Why?", im not asking why is that a rule in this forum (everyone at this point wants non-toxic comunities) but why as humans, we tend to arrive to conflic everytime some topics are brought to the table, but since I've seen a considerable decreasing of trolls on internet forums (maybe they migrated to Twitter(?) I think we all as artist could open to talk about something that (good or bad) make us humans/society

I'm from Chile, a country that is suffering , our people are suffering a brutal repression and lots of violations wich i don't know how to explain detailed without breaking our rules, I've talk about this with a lot of friends we all I think everything is happening righ know here was the negative consecuence of decades of "Don't talk about politics"

As a final acotation, I've working on a plot for a RPG since the last year wich I dropped cuz a strong depression, but when the outbreak started here i felt a lot of mixed emotions, fear, sadness, rage, but also hope, union and motivation, with all those feelings i decided to finishing the lore and plot and work on! (with lots of influences from the events that are hitting the world right now) I want to set up a futuristic rpg with political content.

So, if this post bothers a mod i really really sorry, I just felt the confidence of sharing a personal view with the people who loves a thing we in common, if you think there is no chance to discuss it, please don't ban me, a closed or deleted thread would be enough warn to never bring this topic again.

Chile despertó.
 
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Shaz

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Politics and religion are subjects that are very personal to each individual, and they feel strongly about it. It'd be nice for people to be able to say "I believe this, and you believe that, and it's okay that we disagree - let's just move on with the conversation", and some people can do that, but others can't. Sometimes people's opinions on other things are influenced by those beliefs, so even if not talking about those things directly, they can still come into play, and again disagreements happen and people keep dwelling on it, rehashing things that have already been said, rather than moving on.

It's usually okay to discuss those subjects in the context of the game you are making, but if it's based on real life events, it still has the potential to turn into something that's more about the political/religious events that are happening in the world than about your game. So you can try to keep the discussion coming back to the game, then when you have your answer, ask for the thread to be closed. But once it gets out of hand, which it might do if it goes on for a while, your thread will likely be locked.
 

gstv87

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With that in mind, i ask to myself "Why?"
because you can never know which side of the argument is going to have their opinions based on either hearsay or indoctrination, and that, effectively renders the argument pointless.
because, you can't argue with somebody who has been indoctrinated, because telling that person that they're wrong is the same as telling them that their whole life they've been lied to, and that their entire life and what it represents, is a lie.
....basically, you're telling them they've been played like a fiddle by a third party.
so, of course they gonna get mad, and make the argument about the person telling *them* that they're wrong, and derail the whole thing.
been there, seen that.
you can't argue with a nutjob.

let people believe what they want to believe, and let physics do their work.
it's been at it for billions of years..... you can't outsmart physics.
 

CrowStorm

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(It's spelled reflection.)

On the one hand, the "no politics, no religion" rule makes sense for keeping people with differing political beliefs civil on a forum this size.

On the opposite hand, "we don't discuss politics" is in fact taking a firm political stance.

Being "apolitical" (not discussing politics) is actually a political stance in favor of the status quo (which happens to be, in the United States right now, Trumpism, with several white supremacist movements gaining power in Europe). See, being "apolitical" means things stay the way they are, which is a political outcome, i.e. if we all just never talked about the migrant/refugee issue as a society, then children remain in concentration camps in Texas, separated from their families and treated horribly. "You can't stay neutral on a moving train", "asleep in the parade, you're gonna lose the fight", etcetera. Civil rights, Roe v. Wade, and so on and so forth are all changes that would have never happened if the people involved had just done nothing instead.

On the third hand (I only have two IRL) these discussions absolutely don't need to take place on a game dev forum. The above paragraph is more my response to the various people clamoring "keep politics out of videogames" which is impossible: either you're supporting the status quo by being "apolitical", which is a political move, or you are challenging the status quo by including politics in your art.

tl;dr too late: not all opinions are equally valid, some of them are in fact just expressions of bigotry/hatred/prejudice.

@Shaz, I think eventually you will realize that unfortunately, even wanting people to be able to disagree on certain facts cordially involves a great deal of false equivalency. While there are hundreds or thousands more scenarios where I would happily "agree to disagree" with someone, there are also scenarios where one person is outright wrong:

* Holocaust deniers. We can't "agree to disagree" on whether or not the holocaust happened.
* Climate denialists. We can't "agree to disagree" on whether or not corporations are polluting the world to death.
* Trumpism. I'm not going to "agree to disagree" with anyone that supports a repulsive bigot and corrupt, cowardly criminal. "Agreeing to disagree" with Trump is "agreeing to disagree" on whether Hispanics, Muslims, women, and LGBTQ folks have a right to live. I can't just say "okay, I like Bernie, you like Trump" as if I were just saying "okay, I like vanilla ice cream, you like orange sherbet".

It is a mistake to treat all opinions as if they are equally valid. Certainly hate groups and fascists are something we can all agree are bad.

I can compartmentalize this sheep, though, IF the circumstances are right.

Jason Perry (aka FinalBossBlues aka Despain) the maker of Time Fantasy is a Trump supporter. He's also been my online "penpal" since quite some time before he made Time Fantasy, maybe even as much as a decade before. I already had a personal friendship with him and I respect the hell out of his work, so when I have any intercourse with him I just pretend really hard he's not a Trumpist. I wouldn't attack him in anyway or try to boycott his business: we're friends.
 
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As someone who gets into debates with my own husband over religion and poltics (and we are technically of the same reglion-I am far more open minded and liberal than he is about pretty much everything, I'm a live and let live kinda girl, so long as nobody's getting hurt) that can get very heated, I can understant completely why you shouldn't have that kind of thing allowed on forums and the like, Simply because of it can spark heated discussions between people who love each other, who know when to stop before they actually hurt the other person wth their views, how far can it escalate when people don't know each other and don't know when they need to put their hands up and say "Ok, hey, lets take a step back and disengage from this, it's not worht the trouble"

And so many people like having the last word in any situation and will keep plugging at it until someone with the authouroty to end it, does.

It doesn't help people like yourself who wants to discuss issues in a reasonable manner because of a game related thing. for example, one of my games has two warring countries, that used to, long before, be one. With two very different leaders, and being that I live in the real world I compare it to say... Korea, or Ireland (where I'm totally from btw), or Germany during the cold war, I don't nesscarily mean my game countries are like those specific examples, but maybe I want to discuss about how the politics and/or religion of those countries is similar in a way to my game world, and want some input. It would maybe be nice to be able to post it and discuss, but on the flip side the idea of attracting someone who would blow everything out of proportion would put me off.

What I mean to say is that it would be nice to have a safe place to discuss things like that, but given the way people can sometimes be when they believe in things, I don't think it'll ever be an actual thing, which is a sad truth about the world today.

I have no idea what I'm trying to say, but I'm gonna post it anyway in hopes it makes some sort of sense!
 

Shaz

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there are also scenarios where one person is outright wrong
Because their views are not the same as yours, it means they are wrong? What makes you so sure you are not the one who is wrong?

* Trumpism. I'm not going to "agree to disagree" with anyone that supports a repulsive bigot and corrupt, cowardly criminal.
A single statement like this is what causes forum threads to blow up, and is why political discussions are not allowed (and imo should not be allowed). Sure people can agree to disagree on this - "I know we're not on the same page. I know that nothing I say is going to change your mind, and nothing you say is going to change mine. Let's move on, rather than waste our breath arguing about it". Thing is, they don't WANT to. They want to go on and on, talking in circles, trying to show that they're right and the other person is wrong, and the more times the circle repeats, the more insulting they get, because they can't win the argument on logic. Eventually the thread is locked, but people don't move on - they are still seething, and they start another thread, or make a status post, trying to fire it all up again, so it expands from that thread into other parts of the forum.

I would say that I agree with your opinion, but then that would mean this thread has morphed into a political discussion, and in only 6 posts. See how quickly it happens?

Being "apolitical" (not discussing politics) is actually a political stance in favor of the status quo
I don't agree with this at all. There are many reasons for not wanting to discuss politics:
- you are happy with the way things are
- you aren't happy with the way things are, but talking about it isn't going to change things
- you don't share the same views as the other person and know talking about it is going to end up in an argument
- you're sick to death of hearing about it and just want somewhere to go where you don't have to deal with it
- you believe there is a time and place for such discussions, but it is not on a game making forum
- you have better things to do with your time than argue about it with someone you don't even know and probably will never meet
 

Simientes

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let people believe what they want to believe, and let physics do their work.
it's been at it for billions of years..... you can't outsmart physics.
No, they rule us all haha but we can enhance our understanding to apply in a way that benefits the entire humanity

I think politics in some way have the same potential, but we are far enought to achieve that, just seems impossible.

(It's spelled reflection.)
Thanks! I'm miles away to master your language :kaoswt2:

tl;dr too late: not all opinions are equally valid, some of them are in fact just expressions of bigotry/hatred/prejudice.
I'm agreed, after the events that happened here I've step away from a lot of relationships, but others have been strengthened, Its really hard to handle some opinions when the police are killing and mutilating people. I think when it comes to strangers internet (even more if they are from other countries) you don't have to deal with that emotional link so you can decide if you want to involve in this kind of conversation and look for the way that we can use it for our good.

I think this has been my case so far in this topic

And so many people like having the last word in any situation and will keep plugging at it until someone with the authouroty to end it, does.
Those situations become really awkard and in a wrong context could bring negative results,

What I mean to say is that it would be nice to have a safe place to discuss things like that, but given the way people can sometimes be when they believe in things, I don't think it'll ever be an actual thing, which is a sad truth about the world today.
I think the same, as long as somebody thinks they can handle it assuming not everyone thinks like ourselves you can do really good, even if some opinions tends to be disastrous, you wont change them, i think that is not the point of that sort of debates


Being "apolitical" (not discussing politics) is actually a political stance in favor of the status quo

I don't agree with this at all. There are many reasons for not wanting to discuss politics:
- you are happy with the way things are
- you aren't happy with the way things are, but talking about it isn't going to change things
- you don't share the same views as the other person and know talking about it is going to end up in an argument
- you're sick to death of hearing about it and just want somewhere to go where you don't have to deal with it
- you believe there is a time and place for such discussions, but it is not on a game making forum
- you have better things to do with your time than argue about it with someone you don't even know and probably will never meet

I'm half agree, I think when people mostly thinks when they hear "apolitical" come from people who practice "apartidism" wich means you don't really trust in politic partys and preffer to stay away, in some cases is the best you can do.
But when we talk about "Apolitical", if we dig into the word, we will get to ancient Greece, in wich "Polis" means city, people, that lead us to think about what are the things that make us political beings, I think its something beyond just to relate to a specific person wich may be doing a terrible job as a public server.

Those are things related to the plot im working, in a futuristic way, I really want to dig in a more psychological/antrophomorfic way, but totally awaken to the fact that as species we leave much to be desired in aspects of "understanding ourselves"

Also I think that internet has been a powerful tool that may help us to educate (or adoctrinate if the things get worse) as species, i think there may let us to even more understanding about life (conceptual spoiler for my game haha)

I think we all agree that beyond our happiness there will be things terribly wrong in the world, it always been like this, and that may make us want to stay away from those topics, but I think we are in front a crutial chance to make a strong change in the world, otherwise we are going to join the inmesurable team of extinct species.
 
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ImaginaryVillain

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The worst thing the Internet age brought about was legions of echo chambers where every nut job under the sun thinks their opinion is valid and even a majority. These people then think it's their duty, no even their right to tell everybody under the sun about it.

I post here because of their outright ban on politics and religion, I'm just tired of hearing about it. And no, no I don't care about your opinions are on anything besides game design (the reason I'm here). Most places I just start blocking people who can't take a hint. :LZSexcite: :thumbsup-right:
 

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The reasons for the rule against political and religious discussion have already been mentioned. This rule is not up for negotiation. Unless the discussion is exclusively tied to the making of your game it is not permitted. Not all sites can do all things. Those who want a political/relgious discussion have ample sites they can choose from. This site is about the making of games.

I cannot see this discussion being fruitful if continued.

I am, therefore, closing this.

 

Touchfuzzy

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I'm just going to add a note onto the whole thing that "Being "apolitical" (not discussing politics) is actually a political stance in favor of the status quo "

This opinion honestly just... couldn't be further from the truth. As the person who made the rules about no political discussion on this board, anyone who knows me in person would know that is far, far from the truth.

It isn't about stifling political discussion, it is about the fact that I think political discussion here would be useless. No one is going to change their mind from the discussion. No one is going to convince anyone of anything. It's just going to be a pile of angry until it explodes into flames.

The reason that politics are banned here is not because I'm against discussing politics (I actually enjoy discussing politics), but because the forum itself proved many years ago back when it wasn't banned that it in no way was capable of discussing politics reasonably.

In addition, this forum is primarily a game making forum. Yes, we also discuss other things, but that is a side discussion. There are millions of places on the internet to discuss politics. I quite prefer having one place on the internet that I don't have to worry about having to try to explain to people why human rights violations are bad.

(Also, if you will notice, there are some things that many would consider "political" that we do not. For instance, discussion of being LGBT is not considered political here. We've also had topics about Mental Health, about Gender representation in video games (as it pertains to game making, so therefore falls under the discussion topic of the forum), and more.)
 
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So my office building has 8 individually rented offices in it; 3 of which are social workers and 2 are marriage therapists... Unsurprisingly it always sound very angry out there. Glad I have my own private entrance. :LZSexcite: :thumbsup-right:
I wonder if there's ever been an art challenge that involves drawing faces from the generator.
I'm sorry about earlier. I have the most hate and the most love for my art at the same time. Felt bad about my thread because I wasn't listening, and because I made it out of a bad mindset to begin with. S'another Thursday for me.

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