About expression and staff criticism

[Lunarea]

As some of you are aware, I've closed this thread to give everyone a chance to cool down. Based on my conversations with a few of you, I felt it was necessary to make a thread and clear up a few things.

I have received several complaints and reports about Kilim's comments, in particular. I would like to make it clear that we (as staff) do not support the way his opinion was expressed. His words have offended many of you, or made you feel uncomfortable and that's not okay. I am aware that Kilim didn't set out to make people upset (and that the global idea behind his comment is something people may agree with), but his words were offensive.

We allow free expression and we do not censor people's posts, unless their content is illegal, contains information that's harmful or is full of advertising/spamming. We want to give you all room to be yourselves and express your personality and opinions. However, this isn't an invitation to say anything you want without any consequences. We expect you to be tactful and to think before you post. The forums are not a place where you either talk now or never get a chance to talk again. You can (and should) take time with your posts.

Saying you're just “being honest” or “telling it like it is” is not an excuse for being rude and disrespectful to others. Not only are you provoking people to flame/insult you back, but any valid point you want to make isn't being heard. People end up reacting to your tone instead of your message, and all you've really accomplished is a very high chance the topic will get closed.

Don't post when you're angry or upset. It makes it too easy to escalate into an argument. Don't be afraid to remove yourself from the conversation if it's getting too heated. Having the last word is not worth the risk of losing respect or friendship of others.

Another thing I would like to address is posts that criticize Touchfuzzy. Before anything, let me just stress that you are welcome and encouraged to file complaints about any moderator or administrator. We are human. We make mistakes and we sometimes even struggle with the very things you struggle with. We may even unintentionally break rules. That said, I really don't want you to make these complaints in public. If you do disagree or are offended by a staff member in any way, message me (or Touch if I'm the person you have a complaint against).

I'm not asking you to do this because I intend to sweep issues under the rug. I'm asking you to do so out of consideration to other members. Dealing with staff complaints in public can result in people taking sides and creating an even bigger mess for us to untangle. It can also create unnecessary stress for the staff and make it harder to perform our duties.

Some of you may also be confused about our actions or feel like we're not doing enough. Most of the work we do is behind the scenes – via private staff forums, pms and other forms of communication. Often, a situation you bring to our attention is a part of a larger issue that we can't yet discuss with the public. Quite often, this leaves us with only being able to give you very vague information right away or a phrase like “Thanks, I'll take care of it.” I want to assure you that it's not a brush-off or lack of caring. Sometimes we just can't talk about it in depth.

Each member of the staff has a slightly different moderating approach. Some of us are nurturing and others are more logical. Some are permissive, while others are tough. While it may appear that it makes our moderating inconsistent, it's a dynamic that works extremely well. We discuss issues as a team and we have each other's support. We do this often and best in private, where we can get feedback before acting. And at the end of the day, we keep each other in check.

If you're not comfortable talking to one staff member, talk to another. We'll find a way to approach the issue and try to get it resolved without having it escalate into a situation none of us can deal with.

Although you may not always see the immediate changes, please do trust that we are trying our best to keep you all happy.

Thank you.~

 

[Shablo5]

I don't understand exactly why you singled Touchfuzzy out over any other admin/moderator. You didn't really elaborate on it. Was there some recent criticism over him that you are referring to? I'm just kinda lost as to why you said you wanted to prevent criticism on him, but you didn't mention anyone else, or you didn't just say "staff" as a whole.

Also, I love reading "Don't use "I'm just being honest" as an excuse". It's so true. It's like those words make people feel like they get to be a dick. Everyone is guilty of it, it's just not commonly brought to light.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

I don't understand exactly why you singled Touchfuzzy out over any other admin/moderator. You didn't really elaborate on it. Was there some recent criticism over him that you are referring to? I'm just kinda lost as to why you said you wanted to prevent criticism on him, but you didn't mention anyone else, or you didn't just say "staff" as a whole.

I was publicly accused of going light on people because they were my friends. Despite the fact that the strictest punishments I've ever handed out both were directed at people who were my personal friends.

I was also told my actions were disgusting because I don't delete posts that people find offensive.

Basically, I was singled out because I was the person targeted.

 

[Shablo5]

Oh okay. I just didn't understand that message without context. Thanks for filling me in. I don't have the right to pass judgement in this situation so I won't.

 

[Lunarea]

I did link the thread that inspired this post in the first sentence.

 

[Genii Benedict]

I was also told my actions were disgusting because I don't delete posts that people find offensive.

If you are referring to my comment, I referred to the comment to be disgusting, and not your actions. In re-reading some of the posts, I cannot find where this is inferred.

GB

 

[Touchfuzzy]

GB, I chose to address everyone in that thread with respect, whether I agree with them or not. Even when I stepped in with some blue mod post, I decided to keep it as polite as possible. My reasoning is that people are more likely to state their point in the conversation coherently and politely without insulting anyone if I did the same. I laid out why I said what I did. Allowing something to exist on the forums is not ENDORSING it.

 

[Shaz]

In a quick re-read of that thread, I believe the "disgusting" comment was aimed at the post that initially caused so much offense, not at Touch's response to that post. But Touch's response was also mentioned at the same time, and I do see where the confusion could happen.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Overall, the thing with me is this:

I've been around enough online communities to know there is no way to be liked by everyone if you are in charge. I'm OK with that. Every moderator on this board I believe has a few haters, and I've spoken to most of them from time to time.

I'm not looking to be liked, and honestly I'm not overly concerned with being liked. My only concern is that the forum runs correctly and with no more drama than necessary. I do what I can to do that, and even I'll admit that I'm in no way perfect and I make mistakes as well.

If someone has a problem with me, they are welcome to message me. As long as they remain polite, I will politely discuss the issue with them. At least one person took me up on that offer earlier today, and I do believe that that individual left the conversation happier with the situation than they started. Other people are welcome to do that as well.

That is it. I have nothing else to say in this thread. Too much drama to hash it all out here.

 

[Genii Benedict]

I laid out why I said what I did. Allowing something to exist on the forums is not ENDORSING it.

I certainly would never accuse you of such. You're sticking up for a member's freedom of speech, and that is an admirable trait. However, you also exist as the very public face of a very popular entity, and there does come a time where the line in the sand needs to be drawn. It doesn't all have to fall on your shoulders - you have an out - you have the ability to say, "The court of popular opinion has spoken, and have found said comment offensive, so even though I disagree with censorship, it is my responsibility to censor this comment because it is affecting more than myself."

I never said you are supporting nor endorsing the comment, nor the person. I have no prior knowledge of personal relationships, and my comments come from no other place than a concerned member of these forums. I certainly do not bear you, nor any other member here, any ill will. I have, and will continue, to voice my opinion (and, of course, to click the 'report button') when faced with commentary that I find offensive.

GB

 

[Levi]

I definitely benefit from stepping back and cooling down while in some threads. I tend to 'snap' most in the chat... since it's real-time. But I try to behave. However, in some cases... I can't stand back. As with the "straw man incident". But to set the record straight... I have nothing against Ronove. It was the way he/she went about his/her argument that frustrated me... not the subject of the argument.

*Note*

When I get frustrated, I tend to use strong language. Many people [understandably] take it as direct aggression or rage. However, in person, I'd be talking in a normal "inside" voice... just with more cursing. Haha. But since actual tone is difficult, if not impossible, to convey through text I can understand that people would feel it is as rage.

I agree that making a thread for Mod/Admin issues, as opposed to PM, is a recurring issue here.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

I certainly would never accuse you of such. You're sticking up for a member's freedom of speech, and that is an admirable trait. However, you also exist as the very public face of a very popular entity, and there does come a time where the line in the sand needs to be drawn. It doesn't all have to fall on your shoulders - you have an out - you have the ability to say, "The court of popular opinion has spoken, and have found said comment offensive, so even though I disagree with censorship, it is my responsibility to censor this comment because it is affecting more than myself."

I find that the existence of the post that we can argue against intellectually, does more good than removing it. By allowing others to respond and logically break down the problems with a post, which would be nice if people could do that instead of resorting to personal attacks, we have record of why a statement is wrong, rather than just making it disappear.

Minds are changed by intelligent discourse. Not through censorship, even if the majority agree it should be censored.

 

[Espon]

A certain offensive comment felt like it was brushed off by the moderators and deemed okay to be said. Free speech is fine and dandy, but there's some things that just shouldn't be said on these forums, even if it was meant to be a joke. It's just one of those subjects that can be a really sore spot for people, particularly those that might of suffered from it with someone they knew.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Which was why I responded with blue mod text. Also, warn points were handed out. Is the problem that my mod post was not stern enough?

 

[Reynard Frost]

"The court of popular opinion has spoken, and have found said comment offensive, so even though I disagree with censorship, it is my responsibility to censor this comment because it is affecting more than myself."

Except the point he made was valid, even though his phrasing was harsh. I'm with Touch on this one. Deleting posts just because a handful of sensitive members find it offensive (welcome to the internet) doesn't mean we should be deleting posts. I for one found the reactions to the post to be way out of line, and when people started targetting Touch over it, or crying for deletion, it pissed me off a bit (which is difficult to do, despite how passionate I get in posts I seldom feel anger or frustration).

Freedom of speech folks, I agree to be tactful, but just because someone has an opposing view doesn't mean we should delete their posts.

A certain offensive comment felt like it was brushed off by the moderators and deemed okay to be said. Free speech is fine and dandy, but there's some things that just shouldn't be said on these forums, even if it was meant to be a joke. It's just one of those subjects that can be a really sore spot for people, particularly those that might of suffered from it with someone they knew.

It was okay to be said. It was a bit harsh, but the sentiment itself didn't warrant the reaction folks had. It may be a sore spot for people, but we're mostly adults here and should be able to deal with the opinions of people stated on an internet forum. Don't like it? Block the person.

 

[Solistra]

Minds are changed by intelligent discourse. Not through censorship, even if the majority agree it should be censored.

I wish that I saw more of this, truthfully. I saw the thread earlier today, and had an idea of where it was heading. Knowing that, more or less, I avoided adding my opinion to it, as it's an emotionally charged issue... exactly the kind of discussion which tends to breed animosity.

To be clear, I don't think you did anything wrong, Touch -- in fact, I admire your way of handling such things -- I'm simply surprised that the topic got to the point that it did. The members involved, in particular, surprised me. Emotion is dangerous when it comes to such divisive issues, and the speed of that thread's decline was truly remarkable.

But that's all that I really have to say on the matter. I think that from a moderation standpoint, all was handled well -- I just wish that we, generally, were better able to restrain our emotional responses and think before exacerbating each other in what was already a sensitive topic.

That's what I'm taking away from watching this unfold, at least.

 

[Genii Benedict]

Except the point he made was valid, even though his phrasing was harsh.

I'm going to have to ask for a bit of clarification on this one. Are you talking about Kilim's comment, which stated that if someone is bullied to the point of wanting to commit suicide, they should do it?

Even if not - here's my take on why it should be censored. Let's say tomorrow, a member of our fine site commits suicide. (I know - it's a long shot. Go with me, for a second.) Forget the whole "we can't be held responsible" line, because I agree. The site probably wouldn't be held responsible. BUT, you don't think there would be a significant backlash from the Internet? Anyone read Reddit? Tell me THAT wasn't a whole negative ****-fit for a month or so. There were a number of negative articles on a buttload of major websites. When it was proven to be a hoax, they survived, but THEY ARE REDDIT. Nobody can guarantee this site would be here, given that negative attention.

There are lines that should not be crossed. Of course, that is my opinion.

GB

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Solistra was somewhat nice to me. My life has gone all sideways.

 

[Reynard Frost]

I'm going to have to ask for a bit of clarification on this one. Are you talking about Kilim's comment, which stated that if someone is bullied to the point of wanting to commit suicide, they should do it?

Even if not - here's my take on why it should be censored. Let's say tomorrow, a member of our fine site commits suicide. (I know - it's a long shot. Go with me, for a second.) Forget the whole "we can't be held responsible" line, because I agree. The site probably wouldn't be held responsible. BUT, you don't think there would be a significant backlash from the Internet? Anyone read Reddit? Tell me THAT wasn't a whole negative ****-fit for a month or so. There were a number of negative articles on a buttload of major websites. When it was proven to be a hoax, they survived, but THEY ARE REDDIT. Nobody can guarantee this site would be here, given that negative attention.

There are lines that should not be crossed. Of course, that is my opinion.

GB

I'm going to keep this simple, and civil, to prevent an explosion.

I believe Kilim has the right to express his opinion. I also think that if anyone is unable to deal with stress and believes suicide is an option, isn't worth my time. If someone were to commit it, then I wouldn't care, they took the easy way out. However, if they were to ask for help, or if I spotted the signs, and were able to help them, then I would help them.

If you're threatening to commit suicide, you're screaming for attention. If you feel that is your only way out, and you aren't strong enough to look for another way out? Then that's your own bag, you made your choice, and you won't get my pity. I was bullied all throughout my childhood until high school. Severe bullying, being made fun of, being an outcast, getting into fights, the whole nine yards.

I got over it.

Yes, I know someone isn't me. Yes, I know that sometimes people need help, and I'm not saying shun someone if they need help. But I also think that this is the INTERNET, and that if someone on the forums were to commit suicide, someone making an offhand comment wouldn't have anything to do with it. Anyone who put forth the time and effort to try and form such a connection is only disrespecting the memory of the deceased.

This is my opinion. I stick by it, I have the right to express it. If you disagree? Fine. If you think me callous and uncaring? That would not be the case. I help those who seek help. I don't cry over every sad tragedy that occurs in the world because there's too many to count. I deal with it in my own way. All I ask is that you don't flip out on me or anyone else just because they have opposing views.

You may not like Kilim's opinion, or mine. But that is NO reason to delete them.

 

[Touchfuzzy]

Let's keep it on the topic rather than the topic of the closed thread. I know it can be hard to discuss one without discussing the other, and I know that GB asked you to elaborate (which is why this post is aimed at him as well), but the topic on discussion here is the reactions, not the original posts in the thread which is closed, for good reason