About expression and staff criticism

[Genii Benedict]

Don't you make me criticize you, Touch!!

/humourinjection

GB

 

[Archeia]

I also think that harping on a joke comment, that is already been explained and apologized, isn't ...proper though...

 

[Levi]

@ReynardFrost

I'm out of likes... so... *Like* I completely agree.

This is the internet. Plain and simple. There will be a million things that people will disagree with. Touch and Reynard have covered it pretty thoroughly... so I won't duplicate efforts. But I will say that I agree with what they've said. People seem to be born into a world that encourages oversensitivity... which is bad. Once a person can't express their view... regardless of how many people it may offend or apply... the terrorists will have won.

Seriously though. I can't think of any real reason why the post should be removed. And I don't think that Touch handled it badly.

Edit: Removed some stuff

 

[tpasmall]

I normally stay out of drama on forums as I think it's a bunch of nonsense, but I feel that I should chime in on this one, mostly due to life experience.

I know 4 people personally who have committed suicide by hanging themselves. 2 of them were very close to me. The other two were a co-worker and my wife's cousin. As offhand as that comment may seem, not everyone does it as the easy way out. Some people have serious mental illness or chemical imbalances that can be set off by a hair trigger, such as that comment. It is a serious issue.

Now to take it a step further, I am someone who has unsuccessfully attempted to commit suicide. I ended up spending two weeks into a mental hospital because of it. It's a really complicated story to how I got to that point, but as someone who suffers from clinical depression who was at a particularly low point in my life at the time, it really seemed like the best option. I was being horribly manipulated and when I tried to get out of the situation, it blew up in my face. I was falsely accused of rape and I wanted to kill myself. I chickened out the first time I tried. I told someone about it and they told me they wish I had gone through with it. I went off the deep end. I ending up drinking myself sick for a few weeks then after a day of being manipulated and torn apart and just trashed by someone, I swallowed a couple bottles of pills and I don't know how much liquor in an attempt to be done with it. Somehow, somebody called the ambulance and I was in the hospital for I don't know how long before being moved to a facility where I was under 24 hour suicide watch for 3 days.

The reason I'm posting this is not because I think the post needs to be removed, but because I feel that the staff should have a support system for people with suicidal thoughts. If there is, it should have been posted in Touch's response. If there's not, there should be one so people can feel like the forums are a safe place. Because calling suicide the option of cowards is ignorant. Telling someone to kill themselves because of that is even more ignorant. Because the truth is it's the option of people who have been backed into a corner.

And while it shouldn't be the staff's responsibility to fix people's ignorance, unfortunately, in a situation like this, lack of public action reflect's poorly on the staff. Again, I'm not saying anything needs to be censored, but I think the staff should have put their foot down a little harder to show their stance on someone encouraging suicide. But more importantly I feel like when a comment like that is made, the staff should show support to anyone who might need it, because after reading that thread, it makes the staff look cold and unapproachable.

PS- And I'm sorry for going off topic. I just felt like this needed to be posted in public because of the seriousness of the issue.

 

[Celianna]

This really shouldn't become a thread that discusses suicide in detail, please refrain from this. It's a thread about criticism about staff - this can be done without going into explicit detail about personal experiences.

That said, Lunarea did warn Crimson (Killim) for that comment. I'd have done so too, but she did it first. We don't tolerate that kind of hateful speech here, but some are more lax. Staff comprises of several different people with different ways of warning and settling things.

 

[Archeia]

I would also like to throw in an opinion that just because a staff or two did reply to the thread managed to look cold and unapproachable, it doesn't mean that everyone has the same belief or approach to things. Some just end up not being there. Being generalized sucks.

I get your point though man, and I agree with the...suicide handling...since I have some sort of same experience, but saying "THE STAFF" can be irky. :/

 

[Lunarea]

The reason I made the thread and what I hope people will get out of is this:

1) You have a right to self-expression, even when a moderator doesn't personally agree with your opinion.

2) You have a right to a positive atmosphere.

Posts that make people really upset and uncomfortable are not okay. Instead of enforcing this through censorship, we are asking you to be responsible with your words. If you want to enjoy being able to speak without any censorship, then help us keep content appropriate.

And though I cannot discuss specific moderating actions against members, the controversial post in the other thread did have consequences.

 

[Volrath]

Good topic about a real tough issue. As far as the deleting posts thing goes, I'm personally not in favor of that. I think it's good for people who missed the discussion while it was happening to be able to have a record of how it went down without getting confused by random gaps. The staff's reaction is far more important than whether the offending comment can still be read or not.

With tough debates, I think just about any point, even one that might be taken as insensitive or cruel, can be made in a sensitive way. If Crimson/Kilim's point was that "people need to toughen up" or something similar, that's what he should have said and it would have been fair. I respectfully disagree with one brief statement in the first post here...I happen to think that he chose his words precisely because of their potential to offend, but I guess we're better off if mods are assuming good intentions in situations like this.

 

[tpasmall]

saying "THE STAFF" can be irky. :/

The only reason I put it that way is because no other staff member made an effort to reach out publicly about the issue on that thread. Even if it was adding an addendum to Touch's or Kilim's post. As a whole, I feel the staff failed on that. I realize that not every member of the staff needs to chime in, but when it comes to suicide, someone needs to step up and make themselves available. Because as it stands that thread makes the staff, as a whole, look bad because in the eyes of the public, blue comments represent how the staff feels about a subject. So until something is done about that thread people are going to think the staff, as a whole is cold.

I really don't have much interaction with the staff, honestly, because I don't have any need to. Though I will say there are certain members of the staff who seem very friendly and approachable if I ever needed to talk to them.

 

[Archeia]

The only reason I put it that way is because no other staff member made an effort to reach out publicly about the issue on that thread. Even if it was adding an addendum to Touch's or Kilim's post. As a whole, I feel the staff failed on that. I realize that not every member of the staff needs to chime in, but when it comes to suicide, someone needs to step up and make themselves available. Because as it stands that thread makes the staff, as a whole, look bad because in the eyes of the public, blue comments represent how the staff feels about a subject. So until something is done about that thread people are going to think the staff, as a whole is cold.

Some did thought of it, but then this topic was posted. Believe me, it wasn't something fun to see when you just woke up early in the morning, receive tons of complaints from another side who got offended and trying to figure out what just happened with a sleep laden brain.

 

[andrew]

The reason I was surprised is that on most forums the admins stay out of taking sides in such a topic.

I'm sure it often burns to sit and watch without being able to add your two cents, but when you stand for the idea of equality and fairness on a forum you need to be completely objective and stay OUT of the discussion, like the moderator of a debate or a mediator or a judge.

There are of course times and places where Admin users can join in on discussion (granting friendly criticism, talking about likes/dislikes, thoughts, etc.,) but when it's a heated and two-sided (or many sided) debate, that's a sign for admins to stay out or misunderstandings of favoritism and feelings that the forum itself has an official opinion will surface.

 

[tpasmall]

I can imagine, which is why I personally don't hold anything against anyone for how it was handled. My main thing is just trying to have a support system for anyone who is having those thoughts. And with such a fresh site with such a fresh topic, its going to be a scramble. And I wasn't trying to point fingers at anyone but rather pointing out how people more removed from the situation are going to react if they read that thread, especially if they don't frequent the forums. My thoughts are just sloppily put together because it's late and I'm tired, ha.

 

[T.Bit]

I actually like that staff members have open personalities and opinions and are willing to argue those opinions with other members. Even if a staff member doesn't hold the same opinion as me, I've never felt that I couldn't approach one staff member or another with a problem.

As far as freedom of expression goes: censorship is bad. If you don't like watching a certain show, don't watch it (and further more, don't let your children watch it). If reading something offends your sensibilities, stop reading it. But most of all, people need to step outside their own shoes and try to entertain other ideas and the how others think without judging them as right or wrong. A truly intelligent person can entertain an idea without agreeing with it.

 

[Reynard Frost]

I can imagine, which is why I personally don't hold anything against anyone for how it was handled. My main thing is just trying to have a support system for anyone who is having those thoughts. And with such a fresh site with such a fresh topic, its going to be a scramble. And I wasn't trying to point fingers at anyone but rather pointing out how people more removed from the situation are going to react if they read that thread, especially if they don't frequent the forums. My thoughts are just sloppily put together because it's late and I'm tired, ha.

An RPG Maker forum is not the place to look for suicide help. If someone is having such thoughts, they've got bigger things on their plate than the crap that tumbles out of Kilim's mouth.