Accepting Criticism: Taking Your Lumps vs Being a Baby

jwideman

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Constructive criticism is what people need to give. I am my own worst critic as it is, and I have absolutely no preconceived notions when it comes the potential for people to be a bit too abrasive in their feedback. I've already been a jerk to myself as it is, striving to do better at every turn and it's hilarious when my own berating words are echoed through somebody else. However, I can say that I don't value the critique of any individual that cannot at least qualify their opinion in some fashion. It's fine if you find something I've written to be drivel, but provide me with two things:a reason and a way you think it can be improved. You can be as harsh as you wish. Go for it. Do me the favor of at least providing proof that your opinion is valuable outside of your ability to be an ass because you didn't like something. You will be ignored entirely.


Constructive criticism is a skill that must be learned. Even people that mean well don't know how to do it right if they haven't been taught. Maybe I'll write up a post on giving constructive criticism the way I was taught. But that's beside the point. We should learn to accept criticism - even if given poorly - graciously and ignore ridicule.


I am reminded of the time I criticized the work of one of my peers. I was being constructive, but she was upset anyway and accused me of not being constructive. Then when it came time for her to critique me, she was condescending. What did I do? I thanked her for her critique and took what I could from it. So was I a big meanie, or was she being immature?
 

PsychicToaster

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Constructive criticism is a skill that must be learned. Even people that mean well don't know how to do it right if they haven't been taught. Maybe I'll write up a post on giving constructive criticism the way I was taught. But that's beside the point. We should learn to accept criticism - even if given poorly - graciously and ignore ridicule.


I am reminded of the time I criticized the work of one of my peers. I was being constructive, but she was upset anyway and accused me of not being constructive. Then when it came time for her to critique me, she was condescending. What did I do? I thanked her for her critique and took what I could from it. So was I a big meanie, or was she being immature?
Like I said, I will always accept it. But there's a difference between accepting it and valuing it. In American society, we constantly throw around the phrase, "everyone is entitled to their own opinion". I disagree completely. You're only entitled to what you can argue, and if you can't build a foundation upon which your words can stand, nobody is required to listen to or care about anything you have to say. An opinion doesn't mean anything, even if you're supposedly entitled to one. No one can stop you from thinking or saying certain things, but to act as though every criticism should be treated equally is fallacious at best in my book. 
 
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jwideman

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Well, you know... opinions are like noses. Everybody has one, and most of them smell.
 

LaFlibuste

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I've read diagonally and there are maybe a point or two I'd like to add to what has been said so far.

By the way, I'm writing here as someone who's got a master's in music. It's the kind of environment where you meet a teacher 1 on 1 every week, he listens to you and basically says what you did sucks and why it is so. I'm exagerating a bit, but it can be very frustrating. It's also the kind of environment where the band leader can and will single you out in front of everybody to tell you something you did is wrong and how so. He might even have you rehearse a few times in front of everybody. It takes a very thick backbone. I've also been a teacher with teens.


I could add to how you have to take criticism with a grain of salt but I think it has been said enough. I would rather say this: any artistic endeavour (and I think creating a game is one) is a very private and personal thing. You put a lot of thought and hard work in it, it's yours, and it can be hard to have someone point out how it's not perfect. Try taking distance from your work. People are criticizing your work, not your being. Or at least, useful criticizing does that. Those who are attacking you can just be outright ignored. So yeah, try to take a step back, distance yourself from your work and don't take things too personal.

The second thing I want to add and I think it's something nobody has said so far but it's perhaps one of the most important bits in my opinion. Receiving criticism is fine, it helps you grow and make your project better. Learning to criticize yourself is an invaluable skill. But be careful not to go overboard with this. Be careful to also always spot the things you did good, the things you are proud of. Okay, maybe that map is ugly and sucks, but maybe the boss battle you made for it is really cool. See the good things too. If you don't, you WILL tire yourself out and discourage yourself. You want to continue doing this and get better at it. This implies not getting sick of it because you made yourself feel whatever you did it was never any good. Don't drain out your motivation. As a teacher, after my student played something, I'd tell them to look back on what they did and point out two things they did well and two things they didn't. It's important to learn to self-criticize. It's as important to learn to self-congratulate.


If anyone is interested, I'd also like to share my experience as a music teacher on how to formulate criticism so it's as effective as possible:


First, ALWAYS start with something the person criticizing has done good. It will be less harsh and make him more open to the less positive bits to come.


Second, formulate your criticism. It should be comprised of three key elements: WHAT is wrong, Why it's wrong and HOW you can correct it (also optionnally, why you should correct it that way).


Third, Always finish with something positive, like coming back to that thing he did very well or pointing out other things he did well.


For bonus points, if it's a follow up piece of criticism, be sure to comment on your previous criticism: has the person corrected what you pointed out? Did he do it correctly? Is it better now? If you don't, it feels like that previous comment wasn't really important after all, why did you even care and why should you care about this new one now?
 
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PsychicToaster

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The second thing I want to add and I think it's something nobody has said so far but it's perhaps one of the most important bits in my opinion. Receiving criticism is fine, it helps you grow and make your project better. Learning to criticize yourself is an invaluable skill. But be careful not to go overboard with this. Be careful to also always spot the things you did good, the things you are proud of. Okay, maybe that map is ugly and sucks, but maybe the boss battle you made for it is really cool. See the good things too. If you don't, you WILL tire yourself out and discourage yourself. You want to continue doing this and get better at it. This implies not getting sick of it because you made yourself feel whatever you did it was never any good. Don't drain out your motivation. As a teacher, after my student played something, I'd tell them to look back on what they did and point out two things they did well and two things they didn't. It's important to learn to self-criticize. It's as important to learn to self-congratulate.
This in particular stands out for me. So many games that were hyped up, released for testing, and criticized to the point where the developers gave into every little thing have ended up being awful. The developers refused to stand by their vision for the product and instead made an effort to please everyone. Unfortunately, in the end they pleased absolutely no one. If you have a vision, stick with it. Allowing people who decide what is best for them is best for everyone to influence your development process is a bad idea and you may end up with a far less cohesive game experience overall. You create inconsistencies for yourself that otherwise may not have existed because you've shifted your content around so much that you don't even know what the hell you're aiming for anymore. 
 
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chaucer

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@PsychicToaster this, is valid to a point, if you completely ignore people when 99% of the feedback you get is negative your game is going to go nowhere. Im not saying you have to mold your game to whatever anyone suggests, but you should definitely keep an open mind to feedback, cause some of it, even the small suggestions, might just make or break the entire game, its better to keep calm and think things through and maybe even try applying some feedback, if it seems valid. On the other hand if the game has mostly positive feedback then you really don't have to change much, however its always good still to be open to suggestions( if valid) like I said previously any developers goal is to make a game people want to play. If the majority of your feedback is negative, you're not accomplishing that goal, and should probably try a new approach. Despite whether criticism is negative or not. You definitely need.to learn to accept both. And dont give up if.your first.game only had negative feedback nobody does anything perfect, even big game dev companies mess up sometimes. Think of it this way, do you give up walking if you trip and scrape your knee? No you get up put on a band aid and continue what you were doing. Just remember our biggest mistakes are where we learn the most. :)
 

LaFlibuste

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 If you have a vision, stick with it. Allowing people who decide what is best for them is best for everyone to influence your development process is a bad idea and you may end up with a far less cohesive game experience overall. You create inconsistencies for yourself that otherwise may not have existed because you've shifted your content around so much that you don't even know what the hell you're aiming for anymore. 
It's not really what I meant but I guess it's valid too, to a point.
 

PsychicToaster

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Kind of went off on a tangent. Not what I had intended to write out xD. I work overnights so my brain wasn't firing on all cylinders when I posted that.
 

chaucer

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hehe, no problem I completely understand what your trying to say, the developers vision is important too, and if your games set 1500 years in the past, and someone suggests changing it to 1500 years in the future, and changing your scrawny weak looking hero to a beefed up robot with a machine gun, it'd be kinda insane to give into that ._. lol, but sometimes it might be wise to make a change if it'll better the game, especially if it's something simple. just remember, your game can ALWAYS be better, no matter how perfect you think it is, if you look back after some time, you'll see where it could've improved it's just all part of the process. Anyways my statements are purely my opinion on the matter and nothing more, in the end we're all free to feel and think anyway we choose(whether it be positive or negative) that's the great thing about life, and keeps things interesting.~
:D
 

Indrah

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As someone who is kind of infamous for being harsh with criticism, I feel I should give some input from the assh*le side. Not justifying any harshness, just  to show some of the perspective from this side.


Many RM games suck. There, I said it. There's also a LOT of very similar, very dull games, especially when you've been playing for a while, and especially early projects. We all have to start somewhere, we all have real lives and it's a hobby. There's many reasons why a game will be flawed or even broken, but when the player gets their hands on it, the result is there. Effort or not, newbie or not, if a game comes out boring there's nothing wrong with saying just that.


Some people who give crit are nicer. Some have lower or higher tolerances for rougher games. I've seen people generally enjoy games I considered a mess. Some people may be too harsh, there's no denying that. It's also important to distinguish between empty baiting to the tune of saying just "this game sux" rather than simple negative feedback.


I also feel it's important you can (and will) ignore criticism sometimes. Example: you make a game in a very short period of time and the testing and balancing suffers. Critics do mention the balancing is shot, and they are RIGHT even, but you can accept it as something that you admit is true but are unwilling or could not change. This can happen for many criticisms, especially when a game is already finished and you don't feel like changing anything anymore. They may be right or it may be an opinion, you can choose to ignore it. (But you can't really force others to). 


There are also two distinct types of feedback, the more objective types such as poor balance, glitches, poor presentation etc, and stylistic or bias choices, such as the use of some types of humour, graphic styles, etc. I say many times "to me" or "in my opinion"  simply because personally I don't enjoy that particular thing, not so much because it is WRONG, but it's worth saying because it inevitable colours my general attitude towards the game. In this case I would recommend what ratio of people comment negatively on an aspect, especially if you're a bit resistant to changing it. Sometimes it's just someone who hates that thing but the rest found it okay, sometimes it's the reverse. If you're not too sure, find more sources. (Though this aspect is hard in here since there are so many games as so little attention to give).


A slightly trickier aspect is the general attitude of the people who gives feedback. I'm generally sweary and ranty, and sadly to people one the receiving end that worsens the blow. I'm not sure there's a solid way to prevent this outside knowing the person, but keep in mind that the harshness or their tone may simply be how they are in general.


Some games are plain bad. Personally I'm pretty jaded and probably too demanding and I have a lot of trouble finding good aspects sometimes since I tend towards extremes. Sometimes it IS hard to find good things to say, especially in early games. Many times I've wondered if I should even bother showing my videos to the creators, expecting they'll just be butthurt. Sometimes they have been, and sometimes they have accepted it gracefully. Funnily, some of the ones I trash the worst are the ones who have taken it the best. Those are the ones that kind of keep me posting the videos.


When it comes to videos for feedback: remember video recordings are many times unedited and a stream of consciousness. Also remember the recorder is probably also trying to entertain an audience, not only the developer, so they may exaggerate their reactions for their benefit (heck, many times the primary focus is being entertaining and the criticism is just a side product). Just some things to consider.


Woah rant. I think that's enough. THO I ADMIT I'M KIND OF AN ASSBUTT cmon even then a lot of those games were really bad, what did you expect! XD


So yeah, you can ignore crit if you want, but I recommend listening for what you can salvage, and if you want, ignore the rest.
 
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LaFlibuste

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Some games are plain bad. Personally I'm pretty jaded and probably too demanding and I have a lot of trouble finding good aspects sometimes since I tend towards extremes. Sometimes it IS hard to find good things to say, especially in early games. Many times I've wondered if I should even bother showing my videos to the creators, expecting they'll just be butthurt. Sometimes they have been, and sometimes they have accepted it gracefully. Funnily, some of the ones I trash the worst are the ones who have taken it the best. Those are the ones that kind of keep me posting the videos.


Hah, yes, of course sometimes stuff is just bad all over and the best positive thing to say goes along the lines of "that part is not as bad as the rest", "you've worked very hard and X aspect is really better than it used to be [although it still sucks]" or "[even though it still sucks,] it's the best you've ever done, look at how far you've come since [any previous reference]!". I can also totally understand how it's not necessarily everyone's job to be teaching everyone else and managing their sensibilities :p  
 

Vox Novus

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One thing I'd like to add is that you should never reply to criticism the second you get it. Humans are emotional beings, and even with the thickest skin sometimes we react in a knee-jerk sort of way. It's best to read (or listen) once, walk away, think about it, then come back and read it again and then reply. You are going to have a cooler head if you take that time in the middle to really think about what was being said to you.


Definitely this. hey it hurts no matter who you are or what you have going on when someone is critical of your work which is why this helps to let you see it more from a logical standpoint rather than an emotional one. I personally have issues with anxiety, so hearing criticism or critical thoughts can get me worked up. Even taking a little time to think it over helps. The worst feeling is being too critical back to someone who gave you criticism, makes you feel like an arse.


A part from that a lot of people in the rpg maker community here on the forums do actually mean well. They want to see you do better and put out better games for the community.


On the other side though, when giving criticism try to word things so it sounds like actual constructive criticism and not just targeted attacks or something similar (something I tried to improve on when I played IGMC games last year). I found doing an informal list of just suggestions worked nicely to keep things from seeming to personal. Also make sure to point out things you liked to as it softens harsher criticisms and lets the person know "hey, I really paid attention to your game!" 
 

jwideman

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As someone who is kind of infamous for being harsh with criticism, I feel I should give some input from the assh*le side. Not justifying any harshness, just  to show some of the perspective from this side.


In your Let's Try videos, it was clear to me - if not some others - that you weren't trying to be mean, just honest and impassioned. To me, the worst kind of review is one that is dry and uninterested.
 

Indrah

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In your Let's Try videos, it was clear to me - if not some others - that you weren't trying to be mean, just honest and impassioned. To me, the worst kind of review is one that is dry and uninterested.
Well, some people take it better and some worse. I completely understand that it can he hard to accept that your little baby game has flaws and even the best tones can make you feel bad. Add in some natural sweary harshness and oh boy XD
 

jwideman

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Well, some people take it better and some worse. I completely understand that it can he hard to accept that your little baby game has flaws and even the best tones can make you feel bad. Add in some natural sweary harshness and oh boy XD


In my experience, not everyone wants honesty. They want to be told that their baby is the most beautiful thing ever. But that makes me wonder why they create - is it because they are creative, or is it because they want affirmation?
 

Makio-Kuta

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Oh there are certainly people who do thinks just because they crave praise or attention. And I've got nothing wrong with that mindset as long as people are clear and honest about not wanting critique. (The People who steal someone else's work and claim it their own to get some false sense of praise gor it are a mich bigger problem.) Just like there are creators who are just out there creating to have fun and aren't too worried about being great.


and I agree @Indrah is just very honest xD (plus you always stop and give time to say what is wrong and how to fix it.)
 

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