Achievements notification

[Tai_MT]

Without reading your examples (I don't need to ^_^) I can tell you that if the achievement has to do with the effects of the choice, then it should pop up when the effects are seen.  To do it the other way invites players savescumming to the decision point in order to get both achievements if you have two.  Again, Dragon Age Origins is a prime example of doing this wrong.

There are achievements in that game for solving each "problem" one of two ways.  The problem is... it pops at the decision point.  The decision point can be done regardless of what you've done in the quest, so you just save before making the final decision, then it pops, then you reload for the other one.

 

[Shaz]

yes, that thought occurred to me too, but I don't mind if players make a save in order to get an achievement. Until they've played through once, they won't know where the decision points are, so at best they're still not going to be able to save at the exact point.

 

[Tai_MT]

The problem with that line of thinking is that it assumes the internet doesn't exist.  For the first week or so, nobody will know the decision points.  After that, everyone will know where they are (especially the achievement hunters).  So, at best, your theory works for a week or three and after that, it no longer works for all subsequent players.

That's fine if you want it to be like that as a means of your design.  But, if you're like me and want to minimize savescumming, you'll keep it in mind that the internet exists as well as YouTube...

 

[Shaz]

I am confused about your line of thought.


My question about notification at the time of the decision or at the time of the result is all about what would be the best player experience. It has nothing to do with savescumming, and nothing to do with people looking up how to achieve awards (which they will be able to do, regardless of when the notification happens).


I've already said I think it's best to show the achievement at the time of the effect/result. I've asked if anyone has a good reason to show it when the decision is made instead.


I am not about telling people how to play the game - if they want to cheat, let them. If they want to look things up, or have a hundred saves in case they change their mind, let them. It has no bearing on the question I asked.


If their goal is to get all the achievements, they will HAVE to play the game (almost) all the way through several times - even if they have a "how to get" for all the achievements in front of them. If they decide to follow one path to get one achievement, they miss out on another achievement that would only be available if they followed the other path. So they would have to replay anyway, and I don't mind if they do it from a save file instead of from the very beginning. If it means they enjoy the game more because they're not forced to play the whole thing 15 times, that's okay with me It's still tangent to the question at hand

 

[Vexed]

Out of the two examples mentioned, totally agree on the first. The second... I'm not too sure. I totally agree that the achievement for having the minimal number of party members makes sense to unlock at the end-game - but the opposite achievement, in my opinion at least, wouldn't be particularly spoilery or clue me in to the end of the game being soon. There's a ton of games that have large parties and optional characters that allow you to recruit all party members really early, so it wouldn't be a red-flag to me that the game would soon be over.

However, if I were actively trying to gain all possible party members after seeing the achievement "hint" (if you're planning on having hints for such achievements) or even just the name of it, I'd appreciate the notification popping up when I'd found the final party member - otherwise I might spend ages running around seeing if there's anyone else I've missed. XD

The way I see it would be similar to a low level vs max level achievement - the achievement for finishing the game with the main character (or party, or whatever) below level x would pop up at the end of the game, but the achievement for reaching level 99 (or whatever the cap) would pop up at the moment you reach level 99. Not saying these are necessarily achievements I'd like to complete mind you hehe.

 

[Tai_MT]

@Shaz

Your comment was, "until they've played through once, they won't know where the decision points are so it will be difficult for them to make a save".  My response to that was, "your logic assumes the internet doesn't exist.  It only holds true for the first few people who play the game, but after some time has passed, it's all over the internet and everyone will know where the decision points are and when to save".

I also said, "It's fine if you want to design your game that way, but if you're like me and want to minimize savescumming you keep it in mind that the internet and YouTube exist".

I'm just trying to make you aware that once a game goes live, there's not a lot of secrets about it because the internet exists.  As a game dev you can take that in one of two ways.  You can accept it and not worry about it (like most devs do... for better or worse depending on the game involved) or you can think of clever ways to lengthen the amount of time it takes players to put all the information on your game online (if you care about that sort of thing and if you think it'll be fun for players to try to unravel it all).

Achievements are achievements, players do whatever they can to obtain them regardless of what that may entail.  Sometimes achievements wreck replayability of a game, sometimes they add to it.  It's about deciding what your achievements are meant to do in the game and building on their purpose.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

I prefer seeing a notif especially if the achievements do something important...

 

[Shaz]

@Tai,


Yeah, I'm not worrying about it. For those who want the challenge of getting all the achievements, there's plenty of playability to be had. For those who get stuck, or want to get them all without trying too hard, yes, they'll eventually be able to look it up.


I thought you were pointing it out as a reason to not have the notifications at the time of the decision. My mistake.

 

[Matseb2611]

A couple of questions that instantly came to me: how frequently would the player get an achievement in the game, and is the combat and overall action in the game turn-based or real-time?

If the action is turn-based, then it really shouldn't matter if the achievement comes up in the centre of the screen, since it doesn't obscure anything from the player during key parts of the battle... unless of course if the achievements happen way too frequently, then yeah, it can be annoying.

I personally like to see an achievement pop up notifying me when I got one. It feels rewarding and satisfying (unless the achievements are very trivial).

 

[RaZzi]

As I said earlier I hate achievements that give out things. One example of achievement happening when making a decision is something like "You chose the evil side" "You chose the good side" and doesn't give away too much but the same achievement named something like "Evil ending" "Good ending" is a more annoying and spoilerish althou these both actually tell me the same thing. The name of the achievement matters.

I hate when I get this kind of achievement right when the end cutscene starts. I'd like to have these when the end credits start to roll.

 

[Shaz]

Achievements are only earned once, not during each play of the game.  This game has several paths, so it's possible to play one path and get quite a few achievements, then play a different path and get a completely different set of achievements.

Once you've earned one, playing the game the same way a second time around will not give you the same achievements again - you already earned them.

For this reason, I expect people will get more achievements on the first play or two or three, if they take different paths, and then they'll be less frequent, as the ones previously earned would not pop up again and it would only be the more-hidden, harder-to-get ones that are still waiting around to be discovered.

Re the spoiler nature ... I realized last night that the player could always go in at the very start of a game and read through the list of achievements, and get an idea of some of the things that are going to happen in the game.  So while putting the notification at the time of the effect of the decision will not provide spoiler information, the player could still get a glimpse of what's ahead.  I can't really think of a way to prevent this, and I'm not sure I want to - I want them to have an idea of what they need to do to get each one so can't hide part of the text before they achieve it.  I guess it'll just be up to the player to realize that if they look at that screen, they're going to get some spoilers.  I'll just have to make sure it's not TOO obvious in relation to the path/steps/decisions they make.

 

[Matseb2611]

Isn't it possible to just make many of the achievements act like secret achievements - i.e. they only become seen once the player has achieved them rather than coming up greyed out whilst still locked?

 

[Tai_MT]

Well, if you look at the achievement list before you play the game, that's the risk you take in spoiling the game for yourself.  All achievement hunters know that knowing the achievement names and unlock conditions will spoil parts of the story for you.  It's a decision they make when they open the list.  As in, a player is either concerned with the achievements and thus your story is secondary to unlocking them (like most achievement hunters) or they don't care about your achievements and those are secondary to playing your story.  Those who open the list are those who care more about unlocking them all rather than a non-spoiler story.

You don't really need to find a way to prevent spoilers in the achievement list so long as there are descriptions of what you did to unlock an achievement the moment it unlocks.  That prevents players from going into the list to see all the spoiler-tastic stuff if they didn't want to see it...  And everyone else doesn't care if the game is spoiled if they get all the achievements.

 

[Shaz]

Isn't it possible to just make many of the achievements act like secret achievements - i.e. they only become seen once the player has achieved them rather than coming up greyed out whilst still locked?

Yes, it is possible. But then if the player hasn't achieved them, they won't know they're there.


Unless you mean just showing a slot/icon and maybe the achievement name? And only show the text of the achievement AFTER it's been earned? It's an interesting approach that I hadn't even considered. Thanks Still means people will be able to share after they've earned it, but nothing's going to stop that.

 

[Ultimacj]

Thing is achievements are mostly bragging rights.  However, if you plan to put achievements that gives you actual rewards (like 1,000 GP or even rarer stuff) then as a player it makes me strives for them.

Taking Binding of Issac for example, almost every achievement in that game you get an unlock able item associated with it.  Achievements are nice but as a player I don't strive for them too much mainly because anyone I brag to about them their like "meh" lol.  I don't see many achievement based script ones for maker much, and those that are out there don't come cheap if you're going the commercial route.

just my $0.02

Either prompt or visual window that disappears after several sections is usually good for them to pop out