Adapting Monster hunter/Dark souls mechanics to turn based combat

[Amarok]

The title says it all, the other day i was replaying dark souls and though that the combat is actually kind of turn based.
In the sense that the stamina bar limiting your actions forces you to think ahead and plan your steps while fighting.

So i was thinking maybe there is a way to give the turn based combat of an rpg maker game a bit of that flavour.
Maybe using the TP as "stamina" making that every action you take consumes tp and when it hits 0 you cant act.
The amount of stamina you recover each turn could vary depending on various things, etc.

The combat itself specially regarding bosses could be more about observing the enemy, identifying their attack patterns and planning accordingly. With a "roll" or "evade" command added to the game that would work similar to the guard one, but instead it would boost your evasion?

And you could always go the tank way and guard instead of evading.

Its just and idea i had, but it would be cool to hear opinions on this, specially if you have played these games and now what im talking about.

Also my apologies if this has been asked before.

 

[Astfgl66]

I've thought about these quite a lot since I'm a fan of the monster hunter series and the first dark souls.

Wall of text spoiler'd.

Spoiler

After giving it much thought and experimenting quite a bit, I have come to the conclusion that these systems cannot really translate in a turn per turn RPG.
What makes these games interesting and challenging is the sense of urgency. Reading short tells, reacting to the situation on the fly, and toying with various movesets. The 3d movement is also a big part, as well as the fact that there is no randomness. You now that if you do this you'll evade that particular attack. Mastering the execution barrier is also a very important part of these games (always hitting the head, maintaining perfect shot distance with bows and bowguns, planning your lvl3 charges, never getting overwhelmed in dark souls by using corridors and planning,...)

Not one of these translates well into a turn per turn RPG.
If you allow the player for infinite turn time to think and plan, there is no urgency.
There is no execution barrier: navigating skill menus isn't challenging.
There is no placement to take in account: players can and will always be able to target weak spots. If you implement weak spots that are only periodically available to target, then players will without fail strike at them when they are available whereas in both these games they'd have to be adequately placed, or create opportunites with traps.

Not to mention single player parties are very tough to make interesting in turn per turn rpgs. Controlling only one character is definitely more a mechanic for action oriented games.


You could probably emulate many things in RPGMaker: the stamina system could work like you described.
The weakness targeting: make enemies actually composed of several enemies that represent bodyparts, with enemy AI taking in account which bodyparts are still working to determine actions and parameters %.
Even placement with clever states use probably: a state for long/medium/close distance, long distance preventing melee, and close preventing range attacks for example).
Execution barriers could be done by having timed attacks and defense button presses, and skills requiring combinations of input, much like a fighting game. The dragon attacks: succeed at this QTE or take a large amount of damage!
Maybe emphazising the planning and placement part using a tactical battle system would be great too.
Get rid of all the randomness you can: It will feel terrible for the player to spend his turn casting evade and not evading the enemy attack.
Now if you make evade a QTE and the player fails the QTE and gets hit, then that's much more rewarding and interesting as a mechanic.

A lot of scripting would be required.

Short summary: play to your battle system's strength. If you make a turn battle rpg emphazise planning, if you make an action game emphazise reaction time and execution.

I don't really think it can work, at least not without major scripting and definitely not in a classic turn battle system. But, as a fan of these games, I'd love to be proved wrong!
I didn't manage to make it fun in my experiments, but it doesn't mean you can't. If you do please keep me updated!

 

[Amarok]

@Astfgl66 thanks for the feedback! after reading your post, i think i agree with you, but i still want to give it a try.
Im taking note, of the ideas you posted (i really like them, like the enemy parts) so i will update this threat if/when i make some advance with this.

 

[Wavelength]

I haven't played Dark Souls so what I'll say is partially conjecture - but my instinct is that rather than try to introduce the mechanics from an action game into a turn-based battle system, you should instead figure out which dynamics made the game fun to play and figure out which mechanics you can create that will lead to those same dynamics.

For example, the "evade" command that you mentioned. Going by what you said, this works well in DS because you can get a visual sense of what an enemy is about to do, and then consume some of your Stamina resource to evade it if you time it well. Now, why won't this translate well to a turn-based battle system? For one, in a turn-based combat system the "turn" (time) is often a more important resource than mana/stamina. Using both without taking the opportunity to deal damage can be a waste, even if perfectly timed. Also, there is no "skill cap" or need to display technical ability in order to use an action well - you just select it and it happens. Almost any visual cue you give the player that the enemy is about to use a strong attack is going to be very obvious, and the player has unlimited real time to react. So if you give a player an "evade" skill that costs 20 stamina and their turn, and gives them a 70% chance to evade, then they'll use it if the enemy's damage is going to be extreme (and they'll be at the mercy of the RNG) and otherwise they won't use it because the turn is better spent dealing damage.

However, if the dynamic of reading an enemy's actions and then predicting them to avoid them is engaging, then consider how you might create such a dynamic in a turn-based system without slowing it down too much. Perhaps the enemies have semi-fixed patterns that they follow (starting with very simple ones at the beginning of the game so the player learns that enemy behavior is predictable, and advancing to more complex patterns later on), and the player can spend stamina without spending a turn to choose an Evade action as well as their standard move during a turn (or, alternatively, it doesn't cost stamina but has a cooldown). Perhaps some of the attack skills you use have this "evasion" utility on them instead, so the player can feel like they're making forward progress at the same time they evade things, and it doesn't slow the combat down by making you select two actions. Maybe you also give the player some kind of bonus (attack buff, stamina refill, etc.) when they successfully evade a crushing blow from an enemy.

 

[Amarok]

@Wavelength really good ideas there! having the enemies follow semi fixed patters was my initial idea, maybe i can start building from there.
And i could use something like "stances" that change the enemy graphic to telegraph the attacks (or to trick the player)

Also i think a 3-4 party is a must after all, with that you could have something similar to a dungeon crawler, with maybe a bit more of complexity than usual because the enemy patterns, the stamina limiting your actions etc.

And if you really need to include a 1 party member battle it could work similarly to the duels in the old suikoden games, at least i loved that mechanic, in wich the way the enemy was going to act was revealed trough dialogue.

 

[Pine Towers]

If working with turn-based, I would try:

• Use Yanfly Instant Cast for the Defensive Maneuver: Parry, Block or Dodge. Have some character do differently: a hero without a shield can't block, and a catfolk might have Jump. (and/or use PAssive Status to grant a "default" defensive maneuver when the player don't choose one - the thief might default to dodge, but the swashbuckler to parry).
• Have each attack do a different type of, well, attack, so there is always a best way, a common way and a worst way of avoiding the attack.
• Use visual clues for your players, making each monster adopt a stance before, in the next turn, attacking. So, between the enemy turn, on the player turn he must try to choose the best Defense Maneuver to that attack.

I really dig your idea of using TP as Stamina, since both the attack and defense may consume TP, so you have to balance offensive and defensive options to survive.

 

[Amarok]

@Pine Towers yes that would be perfect! im already using most of yanfly plugins so i will start working with the one you mentioned and see what i can come up with