Advice you don't agree with?

Indinera

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<<After all, it's a game you want to play. It isn't a game others want to play.>>

Logic flaw.
A game you want to play is not necessarily a game others don't want to play. These 2 assertions aren't mutually exclusive - quite the contrary in most cases.
Personally, I *only* make games I want to play. All the time. It's really in my opinion the best advice to keep going.
 

ATT_Turan

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I'm not going to say all of your viewpoints are garbage, but you sure do have several places where you voice your opinions in very objectionable ways.
If you can only be invested in a project because you would like it, you're not cut out to be a creative in the first place.
People create (and create successfully) in many different ways. Some do it in the limelight, others privately. Some create media that's widely popular to the general masses, others have cult followings. Are you saying, for example, China Meiville is not "a creative?" His writing certainly doesn't appeal to the masses. You defining who does and does not qualify as being creative is somewhere between arrogant and rude.
Not every idea is a winning one. Part of being mature as well as being a good artist is accepting this fact.
This is not strictly wrong, but the way you say it certainly comes across as people who don't agree with your prescribed course of action are immature.

Writers have Editors for a reason. Almost every job in a creative field has some job similar to an Editor. Someone to tell the artist "no". Someone to tell them, "That won't sell, so don't waste your time on it."
That is rarely (if ever) the job of an editor. Editors...edit. They proofread, check formats, etc. Recommendations like that would come from an agent or publisher.
If you "make a game you want to play", then you do nothing more than ensure you can't/won't listen to any criticism and can't/won't improve your product.
That is a very judgmental and close-minded statement. There's absolutely no reason someone can't be making a game they want to play and accepting some criticism or recommendations. You're presuming that the game this generic person wants to play would be considered bad by others, and that the criticisms they receive would involve significant changes to their vision.
Some artists are happy to create just for the sake of creation. Those artists, when they're making games, don't need advice on how to build a game.
Why on earth not? I professionally teach a number of instruments to many people who have no interest in performing publicly. They enjoy playing music for themselves and their own entertainment. Does that mean they somehow don't need or won't benefit from guidance?
 

TheoAllen

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I've seen a real example of "design a game you want to play" and not many people played the game by the dev. The problem is more complex than "because it is designed how the dev the game to be". Several factors exist, including the niche taste of the dev and the non-existent market. The solution is to either cater to the market (design a game that people want to play) or find the market for it.

For example, if you design an arcade game and your audience is mostly into the story-focused game, you won't succeed there. Change the game or go find another market. Yes, the advice is actually two, not always "change your game".

This advice is probably only valid if you want your game to be played by people. But if you just want to have fun making games or experiment, do as you wish.
 

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If you can only be invested in a project because you would like it, you're not cut out to be a creative in the first place.
Wait.what?!...
And at the same time you want to innovative? How are you going to innovate if you only ever adhere to the status quo? There is some very bend out of shape logic going on there..
 

The Stranger

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For example, if you design an arcade game and your audience is mostly into the story-focused game, you won't succeed there. Change the game or go find another market.
I don't quite understand this. Wouldn't it just naturally attract a new audience all on its own? In my opinion, such advice is only worth heeding if you've already established yourself and are known for creating a very specific type of experience. A good example, imo, would be the new Wolfenstein games. The first two offered a similar experience, whereas that spinoff game, Young Blood, felt like a different game entirely - one many did not enjoy. It's also why you get people saying "X is a good game, it just isn't a good *insert franchise name here* game."

Unfortunately, establishing yourself can be something of a curse. Once you become known for something, that's pretty much all people expect from you. If you try to do something different, or stray too far from what you've previously created, and which people enjoyed, they'll crucify you for it.

Guess an indie dev could always assume an alias when they want to create things outside of what their audience or fans expect from them.
 
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TheoAllen

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I don't quite understand this. Wouldn't it just naturally attract a new audience all on its own?
If the audience would just come on its own, there would be no "marketing strategy" and all the ads you are getting at every corner of the website or your android apps that make everyone is desperately trying to install adblocker.

Of course, if you already have the player base, you could just cater to them, but if you don't have and want one, go with those strategies.

I will put this to an even simpler example. Supposed that you're making games. But your family and close neighbor are not as nerds as you in gaming. You probably only have a person who is interested in your work. If you are happy with this person as your only audience, then good. Nothing wrong with that.

But if you desperately want more people to play your game, you either have to adapt what is something that is relatable to the people around you, or, publish it on the internet for more reach. Of course, the internet is vast. You're making RPG, so seek out people who want to play RPG.
 

Indinera

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<<Unfortunately, establishing yourself can be something of a curse. Once you become known for something, that's pretty much all people expect from you. If you try to do something different, or stray too far from what you've previously created, and which people enjoyed, they'll crucify you for it.>>

Very true. They won't crucify you I think, but they'll still turn away from the game, resulting in lower sales. That said. You can then just sell it to a "neutral" platform and get a new audience.
 

Tai_MT

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I didn't say it can't be done, but projects people forward on their own should absolutely be something they find rewarding. ...Unless you prefer hating your job. There are a multitude of jobs I can perform (and have) that I will hate just as much as working on a loathsome idea. And most often, those pay out much better than making an RPGMaker game.

If you turn your passion into your job, this happens regardless. Once you start trying to make money or a living doing something you love, this is inevitable. What was once your passion now is an obligation.

Passion shows in a project. ...So does obsession and mental instability. Referencing a couple of works that were received very badly does not invalidate this advice.

There are more than a couple. Go looking for them. The vast majority of works in the creative field are not received well. The vast majority of works in a creative field or industry go unrecognized, become actively disliked, or have so many flaws that people simply don't enjoy them.

This is a fact. It can't be avoided.

Not all ideas are good ones. Most are uh... pretty bad, in fact.

Making something you don't like is how you become out-of-touch with your project. All of the best ideas come from a place of passion.

Incorrect. The best ideas come from a place of refinement and criticism. Passion is only good for morale and tends to fade over time. It is hard to keep passion for something over an extended period of time. So, relying on passion is a pretty big mistake as well. Relying on passion is how you get a large number of unfinished projects from people and how they start new ones. Chasing the Dragon. The passion Dragon.

Likewise, you need to decide what you're passionate about. Are you passionate about making something people will like, or passionate about having your idea out there and trying to get validated for having that idea?

Unfortunately, there isn't a participation trophy for creative works. It lands or it doesn't. Very few people are going to recognize you for any particular idea you had. They're only going to recognize you for the experience you've crafted.

Honestly, a person should be passionate about the act of game design rather than any particular idea within game design. This is how you complete games. If the act of designing the game fires you up, no matter what you're doing in it... you will complete games. If only the act of executing a single specific idea makes you passionate... You're not really a game designer. At that point, you're just engaging in game design to do the one thing about game design you like.

If your story is written badly, you change it. If your story isn't engaging, you change it. If your systems don't work or aren't fun, you refine or remove them. If the themes of your game aren't interesting, you change them.

You need to decide if the integrity of your "vision" is more important than the integrity of your project. If your message reaches no ears, what good is your message? If your art reaches no eyes, what good is that painting?

Along the way, others collaborate with their own thoughts and ideas. All should be considered to find the best expression of the creators intention. But the masses do not control the project. If they do, it becomes boring middle-of-the-road milquetoast that no one really likes. It's just tolerated.

The masses do control your project though. Is your game fun? If not, then it's a bad game. Masses control your project. Whether you like to admit it or not.

Just because you create something doesn't mean it's good. The act of creation doesn't make something automatically good or liked.

You need to compromise your vision for your audience. Do you know what the word compromise means? It means you concede some things and whomever you're conflicting with concedes some things to come to a middle ground.

If you don't compromise on your vision, you will not have a good game. Period. Full stop.

Many games were made to break into a market that wasn't being serviced. The creators understood this because THEY WERE HUNGRY FOR THESE GAMES.

The creators really didn't understand this. In most cases, they got fairly lucky. There are a great many people who do things exactly like this and never break into the market. They never find their niche.

This is tantamount to claiming that all you need to do to get rich is to buy lottery tickets.
The odds are against you.

What you NEED to be doing is playtesting constantly. Getting an audience to playtest your game. To tell you what is and isn't fun about the game you've been designing. Only your audience is going to tell you where you've failed and succeeded. Only your audience is going to tell you where the flaws in your game are so that you can fix them.

This, inevitably, compromises your vision. Which is going to be a good thing. Because it means if you refine your ideas and vision into something workable and enjoyed by your audience, then people get to enjoy your vision.

Well, people beyond yourself.

And a VERY good measure of a failing mechanic is when the creator is not enjoying it.

Creators, very rarely, enjoy the games they are creating. I know many of them say they do. But, after the "honeymoon period" wears off on the game, they can't really "test for fun" anymore. They're biased. They're in a mindset of DESIGNING the game rather than PLAYING the game. Or, if they're having a lot of fun playing their own game, they can't be trusted that it's fun for others as well.

The absolute measure of a failing mechanic is a creator believing it should exist because they find it fun. This is called "The Rule of Cool". It's in the game because the creator likes it and for no other reason.

This is a massive pitfall.

A true creator derives their happiness in game design from the effect it has on an audience. The joy it brings those who consume it. A narcissist only cares about creating their own happiness in the here and now and is unwilling to change anything to make others happy.

Again, design a game you WANT to play.

Please don't. You're free to start a project with this premise... But you should be designing a game others want to play.

This comes across like you are not respecting the position counter to yours. You are implying that people who work on the ideas they like aren't "mature".

You're free to work on any ideas you like. That's not the immature part. The immature part (if you had bothered to read it, rather than skim) is in not accepting that not all ideas are winners. In fact, most ideas aren't. They need refinement, reworking, and proper feedback.

That great idea you have? It's probably not great.
That great idea I have? Yeah, it's probably garbage too.

Operating under the illusion that your ideas are great and will make a great game is the epitome of immaturity.

Not even I operate under that illusion. I expect my own game to fail and fail hard. I expect to need to further refine whatever it is. I expect lots of criticism and people saying "It's not fun" or "it's written poorly" among other things. I expect to learn a lot to further refine my ideas and my content into something palatable to a public looking for fun.

You should be this way too.

Just the same, not every liked idea is a failure. Not every suggestion from the public is a winner.

Unfortunately, the reality is that most ideas are failures. Yep, even those from the public. But, the valuable information you need and want is your audience saying, "I don't like it". You will need to compromise your vision in order to get your audience to like it.

There isn't a way around it.

Wait... What? You quoted me, so I have to assume you read what I wrote. You just seem to be pretending it means something other than what I obviously said. I don't mean to disrespect you, but let me dumb this down to avoid confusion: Make the game you want to play and make it something others want to play, too.

The way you wrote it was the classic excuse used. The typical "Create a game you like, and others will like it too" action. This is not always true. It's actually false fairly often.

While it isn't mutually exclusive to create a game you enjoy as well as others enjoy... You're going to be compromising your initial vision quite a lot. You're going to be refining quite a lot. Because you want to please people other than yourself.

Do you include X feature because you enjoy it, or do you remove it because everyone else on the planet hates it? If you are designing a game you enjoy, then you include it. If you are designing a game others enjoy, you remove it.

Fairly simple concept.

Uh... WHAT? This is actually nonsense. You mention editors and whatnot. You might want to consider editing your post.

If you're creating a game you want to play and aren't considering your audience and what they like to play... Then you don't need to create your game. I'm sorry you lost the context in your rush to reply. That tends to happen when you skim rather than read.

But, I clarified it for you and re-added the context.

The rest of your post is basically a giant false dichotomy. There is no reason to think that a project you like will not be liked by others.

There is likewise no reason to think a project you like will ever be liked by others.

You need to set your objectives and follow them. If you don't, then you're simply engaging in the act of creation for the sake of creation. For yourself. Not for others.

What are your objectives with game design?

Create a game?
Have your game be liked by others?
Get popular?
Make money?
Enjoy the process of game design?

You need to make your objectives with it clear. Creation for the sake of creation doesn't require anyone liking it except yourself. Creation for the sake of any other objective requires you bend and compromise and alter or discard visions that do not hit the objective you are seeking.

That's just life, man. You don't have to like it, but that's the way it operates.

There is every reason to think that a project you don't like will be something you have a hard time motivating yourself to finish, will fall flat to the audience you are trying to reach because you aren't part of that audience, and will be something that brings you irritation and frustration with little to no reward.

Probably depends on the sort of person you are. I mean, it's possible to do well without being motivated or passionate about a project just because of your skill.

If you can only do a good job because you want to do it and are motivated to do it, then it has less to do with your personal skill and more to do how you're feeling. This means consistency on your project is going to be all over the map. Feeling down when you were doing that one thing? It will suffer because you didn't care. Feeling good about this other thing? It might be done really well!

It creates an inconsistent finished product if you're relying overly heavy on mood and motivation rather than skill and mastery.

That's not to say that motivation and morale aren't important. They are. But, you don't seem to be talking about those things. You seem to be talking about "personal passion" rather than an overall sense of morale and motivation.

After all, you can derive morale and motivation from people just by making their drives into "doing a good job at what they do". Doesn't necessarily have to be because they enjoy the project. They can simply enjoy the work. Or, they can enjoy working with their technical mastery. Etcetera.

But, that's neither here nor there. It has less to do with passion and more to do being a mature adult. We all go to work and do jobs we don't want to do. Some people decide to be lazy while others knuckle down and do the things they don't want to do to the best of their abilities because they want whatever it is they're doing to "be the best". Same is true of housework or other chores. You can be lazy and do the bare minimum because you are waiting for morale and motivation and passion... Or, you can have a little bit of self-respect and pride in the jobs you're doing in order to do them the best you can regardless of how you feel about doing them.

I feel like you fundamentally misunderstand what is meant by "Make the game you want to play."

I'm using it in the same context everyone on the forums does. Namely, only make games you have a passion for making. Ignore the glaring fact that you're designing a game for your audience and not for yourself. You'll need to make a game others enjoy, not yourself.

Ideally:

You start with an idea you like and you use an audience to refine and mold that idea into something usable and workable and entertaining.

If you're only creating a project because you have passion for that project... you aren't going to get anywhere. You will accomplish nothing. You will start a second or third or tenth project while doing nothing except banking on that passion and "creating a game I want to play".

Your concern should be "Does the audience enjoy this?". If they don't, you design it so they do... and you find your passion and fun in making something for others rather than yourself. You can still get your message out. But, you'll need to refine it. You'll need to alter it. You'll need it to adhere to what your audience wants if you want anyone to experience it.

That's the nature of the beast. Like it or not. You're beholden to your audience.

But, if I must simplify this further (and I suspect I need to).

There's a meme that goes around in D&D. It applies to DM's. "Just write a book!". There are DM's out there who only care about their own vision. They railroad players into the story they wrote, using the locations they planned for, and the interactions they want you to have. They aren't interested in if you're having fun or not. They're interested in forcing you to say you're having fun doing their thing. To which, any experienced DM just says, "You're not a DM, just write a book!"

tl;dr
It is your job as a dev to figure out how to make your ideas palatable and enjoyable to an audience. It is also your job as a dev to realize when your ideas are just bad and should be removed for the sake of the audience and their fun.
 

Finnuval

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Likewise, you need to decide what you're passionate about. Are you passionate about making something people will like, or passionate about having your idea out there and trying to get validated for having that idea?
How about being passionate about telling your story and the process of creating itself tho... Kinda glaring over that one. Not everyone does something to get validated as being a goal unto itself you know
 

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Your first game will always be a learning project, and it will almost always get scrapped after you learned how to use the engine.


I dunno if anyone misinterpreted your tutorial or how many people have twisted it to mean something else, but I can confirm that nothing I made while I was learning was game material. It was pure chaos-- there were events everywhere and nothing made sense haha
So yeah, point blank telling people not to make their dream game isn't nice, but saying that they should tinker with and learn about the game engine before they start investing their time and love into their dream game... that's good advice XD
 

Indinera

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If you turn your passion into your job, this happens regardless. Once you start trying to make money or a living doing something you love, this is inevitable. What was once your passion now is an obligation.

I don't find this to be all that true to be honest. At best a mixed bag. Most of the games I've made were designed no differently than freeware ones. I may occasionally want to try something a bit different for testing purposes (mind you, it doesn't mean I don't like it) but overall the process remains very similar regardless of whether money is involved or not.

It is hard to keep passion for something over an extended period of time.

Is 20 years enough? ;)

Are you passionate about making something people will like, or passionate about having your idea out there and trying to get validated for having that idea?

About telling stories, creating characters and making games. And yeah, I like the money as well. These things aren't mutually exclusive.

If you don't compromise on your vision, you will not have a good game. Period. Full stop.

Pointless comment. And by the way, you don't need to compromise anything as long as whatever you do works. Compromising is a good thing to endeavour from a position of failure, it's not mandatory otherwise, just a personal choice at best. Personally I don't like compromising and if I can avoid it, I will.

What you NEED to be doing is playtesting constantly.

That much is true. Hence why it's so important to like your own game.
 
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gstv87

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"Use this plugin to solve your problem!"

no, I won't.

"Use *this one* because it's the one that everyone uses!"

NO.

"Use *this one* because it's X brand!"

get the $%&# out of there before I punch you in the face.
 

Bernkastelwitch

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Honestly my whole mindset of the "Design a game you want to play" is that I go in, making something I know I want to play but also know there's still going to be a market for it.


Making stories and characters you want and making a fun game for people to experience aren't mutually exclusive. Some of the best games that came out in recent years were indie devs pet projects, after all.

Though I guess this is another discussion for another day of "Mass market vs Niche market" here.
 

ericv00

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If you turn your passion into your job, this happens regardless. Once you start trying to make money or a living doing something you love, this is inevitable. What was once your passion now is an obligation.



There are more than a couple. Go looking for them. The vast majority of works in the creative field are not received well. The vast majority of works in a creative field or industry go unrecognized, become actively disliked, or have so many flaws that people simply don't enjoy them.

This is a fact. It can't be avoided.

Not all ideas are good ones. Most are uh... pretty bad, in fact.



Incorrect. The best ideas come from a place of refinement and criticism. Passion is only good for morale and tends to fade over time. It is hard to keep passion for something over an extended period of time. So, relying on passion is a pretty big mistake as well. Relying on passion is how you get a large number of unfinished projects from people and how they start new ones. Chasing the Dragon. The passion Dragon.

Likewise, you need to decide what you're passionate about. Are you passionate about making something people will like, or passionate about having your idea out there and trying to get validated for having that idea?

Unfortunately, there isn't a participation trophy for creative works. It lands or it doesn't. Very few people are going to recognize you for any particular idea you had. They're only going to recognize you for the experience you've crafted.

Honestly, a person should be passionate about the act of game design rather than any particular idea within game design. This is how you complete games. If the act of designing the game fires you up, no matter what you're doing in it... you will complete games. If only the act of executing a single specific idea makes you passionate... You're not really a game designer. At that point, you're just engaging in game design to do the one thing about game design you like.

If your story is written badly, you change it. If your story isn't engaging, you change it. If your systems don't work or aren't fun, you refine or remove them. If the themes of your game aren't interesting, you change them.

You need to decide if the integrity of your "vision" is more important than the integrity of your project. If your message reaches no ears, what good is your message? If your art reaches no eyes, what good is that painting?



The masses do control your project though. Is your game fun? If not, then it's a bad game. Masses control your project. Whether you like to admit it or not.

Just because you create something doesn't mean it's good. The act of creation doesn't make something automatically good or liked.

You need to compromise your vision for your audience. Do you know what the word compromise means? It means you concede some things and whomever you're conflicting with concedes some things to come to a middle ground.

If you don't compromise on your vision, you will not have a good game. Period. Full stop.



The creators really didn't understand this. In most cases, they got fairly lucky. There are a great many people who do things exactly like this and never break into the market. They never find their niche.

This is tantamount to claiming that all you need to do to get rich is to buy lottery tickets.
The odds are against you.

What you NEED to be doing is playtesting constantly. Getting an audience to playtest your game. To tell you what is and isn't fun about the game you've been designing. Only your audience is going to tell you where you've failed and succeeded. Only your audience is going to tell you where the flaws in your game are so that you can fix them.

This, inevitably, compromises your vision. Which is going to be a good thing. Because it means if you refine your ideas and vision into something workable and enjoyed by your audience, then people get to enjoy your vision.

Well, people beyond yourself.



Creators, very rarely, enjoy the games they are creating. I know many of them say they do. But, after the "honeymoon period" wears off on the game, they can't really "test for fun" anymore. They're biased. They're in a mindset of DESIGNING the game rather than PLAYING the game. Or, if they're having a lot of fun playing their own game, they can't be trusted that it's fun for others as well.

The absolute measure of a failing mechanic is a creator believing it should exist because they find it fun. This is called "The Rule of Cool". It's in the game because the creator likes it and for no other reason.

This is a massive pitfall.

A true creator derives their happiness in game design from the effect it has on an audience. The joy it brings those who consume it. A narcissist only cares about creating their own happiness in the here and now and is unwilling to change anything to make others happy.



Please don't. You're free to start a project with this premise... But you should be designing a game others want to play.



You're free to work on any ideas you like. That's not the immature part. The immature part (if you had bothered to read it, rather than skim) is in not accepting that not all ideas are winners. In fact, most ideas aren't. They need refinement, reworking, and proper feedback.

That great idea you have? It's probably not great.
That great idea I have? Yeah, it's probably garbage too.

Operating under the illusion that your ideas are great and will make a great game is the epitome of immaturity.

Not even I operate under that illusion. I expect my own game to fail and fail hard. I expect to need to further refine whatever it is. I expect lots of criticism and people saying "It's not fun" or "it's written poorly" among other things. I expect to learn a lot to further refine my ideas and my content into something palatable to a public looking for fun.

You should be this way too.



Unfortunately, the reality is that most ideas are failures. Yep, even those from the public. But, the valuable information you need and want is your audience saying, "I don't like it". You will need to compromise your vision in order to get your audience to like it.

There isn't a way around it.



The way you wrote it was the classic excuse used. The typical "Create a game you like, and others will like it too" action. This is not always true. It's actually false fairly often.

While it isn't mutually exclusive to create a game you enjoy as well as others enjoy... You're going to be compromising your initial vision quite a lot. You're going to be refining quite a lot. Because you want to please people other than yourself.

Do you include X feature because you enjoy it, or do you remove it because everyone else on the planet hates it? If you are designing a game you enjoy, then you include it. If you are designing a game others enjoy, you remove it.

Fairly simple concept.



If you're creating a game you want to play and aren't considering your audience and what they like to play... Then you don't need to create your game. I'm sorry you lost the context in your rush to reply. That tends to happen when you skim rather than read.

But, I clarified it for you and re-added the context.



There is likewise no reason to think a project you like will ever be liked by others.

You need to set your objectives and follow them. If you don't, then you're simply engaging in the act of creation for the sake of creation. For yourself. Not for others.

What are your objectives with game design?

Create a game?
Have your game be liked by others?
Get popular?
Make money?
Enjoy the process of game design?

You need to make your objectives with it clear. Creation for the sake of creation doesn't require anyone liking it except yourself. Creation for the sake of any other objective requires you bend and compromise and alter or discard visions that do not hit the objective you are seeking.

That's just life, man. You don't have to like it, but that's the way it operates.



Probably depends on the sort of person you are. I mean, it's possible to do well without being motivated or passionate about a project just because of your skill.

If you can only do a good job because you want to do it and are motivated to do it, then it has less to do with your personal skill and more to do how you're feeling. This means consistency on your project is going to be all over the map. Feeling down when you were doing that one thing? It will suffer because you didn't care. Feeling good about this other thing? It might be done really well!

It creates an inconsistent finished product if you're relying overly heavy on mood and motivation rather than skill and mastery.

That's not to say that motivation and morale aren't important. They are. But, you don't seem to be talking about those things. You seem to be talking about "personal passion" rather than an overall sense of morale and motivation.

After all, you can derive morale and motivation from people just by making their drives into "doing a good job at what they do". Doesn't necessarily have to be because they enjoy the project. They can simply enjoy the work. Or, they can enjoy working with their technical mastery. Etcetera.

But, that's neither here nor there. It has less to do with passion and more to do being a mature adult. We all go to work and do jobs we don't want to do. Some people decide to be lazy while others knuckle down and do the things they don't want to do to the best of their abilities because they want whatever it is they're doing to "be the best". Same is true of housework or other chores. You can be lazy and do the bare minimum because you are waiting for morale and motivation and passion... Or, you can have a little bit of self-respect and pride in the jobs you're doing in order to do them the best you can regardless of how you feel about doing them.



I'm using it in the same context everyone on the forums does. Namely, only make games you have a passion for making. Ignore the glaring fact that you're designing a game for your audience and not for yourself. You'll need to make a game others enjoy, not yourself.

Ideally:

You start with an idea you like and you use an audience to refine and mold that idea into something usable and workable and entertaining.

If you're only creating a project because you have passion for that project... you aren't going to get anywhere. You will accomplish nothing. You will start a second or third or tenth project while doing nothing except banking on that passion and "creating a game I want to play".

Your concern should be "Does the audience enjoy this?". If they don't, you design it so they do... and you find your passion and fun in making something for others rather than yourself. You can still get your message out. But, you'll need to refine it. You'll need to alter it. You'll need it to adhere to what your audience wants if you want anyone to experience it.

That's the nature of the beast. Like it or not. You're beholden to your audience.

But, if I must simplify this further (and I suspect I need to).

There's a meme that goes around in D&D. It applies to DM's. "Just write a book!". There are DM's out there who only care about their own vision. They railroad players into the story they wrote, using the locations they planned for, and the interactions they want you to have. They aren't interested in if you're having fun or not. They're interested in forcing you to say you're having fun doing their thing. To which, any experienced DM just says, "You're not a DM, just write a book!"

tl;dr
It is your job as a dev to figure out how to make your ideas palatable and enjoyable to an audience. It is also your job as a dev to realize when your ideas are just bad and should be removed for the sake of the audience and their fun.
Oh boy. Look at this thing. LOOK AT IT!

So, I didn't skim your first post (though you seem to be fine accusing me of such), but I certainly skimmed this one once I got halfway through. I have two possibilities rolling around in my head:

1. You are playing 4D chess and presenting the advice you disagree with as your own position to highlight how bad it is, as that is what this thread is about.

2. There is a fundamental disconnect in language, here. And the initial mistake is how you read "Make the game you want to play".

Your post is full of false dichotomies while also making concessions with regards to the very false dichotomies you presented. As part of the audience of your posts, I have to ask you: Did you "make the post you wanted to read"? Or did you make the post the audience wanted? :wink:
 

Finnuval

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Oh boy. Look at this thing. LOOK AT IT!

So, I didn't skim your first post (though you seem to be fine accusing me of such), but I certainly skimmed this one once I got halfway through. I have two possibilities rolling around in my head:

1. You are playing 4D chess and presenting the advice you disagree with as your own position to highlight how bad it is, as that is what this thread is about.

2. There is a fundamental disconnect in language, here. And the initial mistake is how you read "Make the game you want to play".

Your post is full of false dichotomies while also making concessions with regards to the very false dichotomies you presented. As part of the audience of your posts, I have to ask you: Did you "make the post you wanted to read"? Or did you make the post the audience wanted? :wink:
if you intend to keep discussing the point with him expect to get accused of far worse xD

@HexMozart88 it's good to be on some lists isn't it ;)
 

ericv00

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And this is why I have him blocked, LOL.
I understand. Their posts are not very charitable and break logic here and there, and I disagree with a lot of what is presented, but I don't think they are completely lacking in usefulness. A few concepts have merit. The first reply in this thread seemed pretty good, aside from the obvious point of contention. In fact, I feel like this back and forth was very apt for the intention of the thread.
 

SigmaSuccour

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:MV3:
Often spoken advice that I do not agree with:
  1. Make the game you want.
  2. Play other people's games for inspiration.
  3. You can't be original.
  4. Focus on quality of game over quantity of games.
  5. Create/get custom assets.
  6. Share about your game on RPG Maker forum and sub-reddit.
  7. Take a break if you're tired.
  8. Make the game for yourself.


Often 'implied' advice that I do not agree with:
  1. First game should be an hour or few in length.
  2. Move on, and abandon the project since you're not interested in it anymore.
  3. If you make a good game, people will play it.
  4. Your game should have consistency.
  5. RPG Maker is not a powerful engine on its own, and so you need plugins/script to make a decent game.
  6. -
  7. -
  8. Finish the game for yourself.
 

HexMozart88

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I'm very interested in your reasoning for not agreeing with the spoken advice. I've been told to make games for myself many times because I often get so paranoid about what people are going to criticize about it that I keep redoing things indefinitely.
 

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>studying for months for an exam
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