Advice you don't agree with?

Finnuval

Old Raven following Rainbows
Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2018
Messages
2,448
Reaction score
8,921
First Language
Dutch
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
I've seen a fair few people who immediately embrace the "go big or go home" mentality fail spectacularly when they have no knowledge base to start from. It's never bad advice to encourage someone to start small because you can only go up from there, rather than becoming frustrated if things go pear shaped.
Thing is tho, not all ppl are the same ;) (as you have said aswell but to highlight this goes both ways of that advice).

Where one person fails because things get to complicated and frustrating another might thrive due to it.

I guess the best way to put it is :

The advice on its own isn't good or bad (wether it is to go big or small) but you should always consider wether or not it applies to you and the person giving the advice shouldnt make it sound like it's the singular and only 'right' way to do things :)

Edit : actually this goes for all advice across the board xD
 
Last edited:

Sword_of_Dusk

Ace Attorney
Veteran
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
469
Reaction score
503
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMV
Thing is tho, not all ppl are the same ;)
Where one person fails because things get to complicated and frustrating another might thrive due to it.
Well, yeah. That's exactly what I said in the rest of my post.
 

TheoAllen

Self-proclaimed jack of all trades
Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2012
Messages
6,493
Reaction score
8,320
First Language
Indonesian
Primarily Uses
RMVXA
and the person giving the advice shouldnt make it sound like it's the singular and only 'right' way to do things
Totally, you shouldn't say "if you make a game for yourself, you will accomplish nothing". Dismissing the other side of perspective is not an effective way to communicate ;)

You WILL accomplish something, whether or not it is relevant to what you do right now (making games that you like). Perhaps, someone has a suicide tendency, and making games helped them survive. Perhaps making games you like makes you learn the other skill (me, with programming and now it is my job), perhaps you found your significant other by doing so, etc.
 

Finnuval

Old Raven following Rainbows
Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2018
Messages
2,448
Reaction score
8,921
First Language
Dutch
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
Well, yeah. That's exactly what I said in the rest of my post.
Yeah and I agreed and extrapolated a little to also apply it to the opposite advice - but yeah, we all are different. Too many folk tend to forget that tho .

Dismissing the other side of perspective is not an effective way to communicate
Neither is telling them they don't belong somewhere cause they do it their way ;)


You WILL accomplish something, whether or not it is relevant to what you do right now (making games that you like). Perhaps, someone has a suicide tendency, and making games helped them survive. Perhaps making games you like makes you learn the other skill (me, with programming and now it is my job), perhaps you found your significant other by doing so, etc.
Exactly! Amen.
 

Tai_MT

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
5,622
Reaction score
5,144
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMV
@C64_Mat

Point of contention:

Artists take commissions. This is "creating for others". It isn't "creating for self" any longer. It is forgoing creativity to deliver exactly what the audience wants.

Are you saying all artists lose their integrity the moment they begin taking commissions and trying to sell their work? That's what your post sounds like.

Here's the major problem with the argument:

While people consider video games art (erroneously, in my opinion... these tend to be people who have no idea what art actually is... or people who want their hobby to be more respected than it is out of ego), the fact tends to remain that creation of it is only half of the expression.

From an artistic standpoint, a game isn't an artistic expression until it is played. To this end, your audience is going to be half of the process.

Now, whether that audience is just you... you and a few friends... or the wider world... doesn't really matter. Video games (like books) require they be consumed as part of the artistic expression. This is the nature of what they are.

In this respect, video games are far different from creating a painting. Or a statue. Or a piece of architecture.

Part of the artwork within a video game is the execution of the experience (a person can't feel anything about a video game until it is played, unlike other artwork which typically just needs to be viewed). Because of this, consideration needs to be made toward an audience. Even if that audience is only yourself.

The artistic expression of a video game lies beyond the packaging. It isn't enough create the game. The packaging needs to be opened. The experience needs to be had in order for any artistic expression to have taken place.

So, to that end:

1. If you are creating strictly for yourself, then you need only worry about whether or not you enjoy the end product.

2. If you are creating for a small group of people, then you need only worry about whether they enjoy the end product.

3. If you are creating for a large group of people or to put food on your table, then you need to worry about whether the most people possible will enjoy your end product.

---

Don't get me wrong, I get it. I understand all the resistance to my viewpoint on "Don't create a game you like".

I'm a creative, so there's no way I don't understand where the resistance is coming from.

Creating is a deeply spiritual and personal act. It is nearly equivalent to having faith as a worshipper of a deity. It's a very powerful experience to create. Especially when channeling it from wherever it comes inside of you.

Artistic expression, however, only reaches its zenith when your message is passed along to others. A creative never really remains content to only create for themselves. They desire to share their works with others and have others experience a piece of what they experience when they create. They wish to pass along whatever message or experience it is to others.

To this end, video games are somewhat unique. They are a form of entertainment. To pass along your message, you need to appeal to others in order to get them to want to experience your artistic expression.

I'm not saying (nor have I ever said) that you should simply follow trends and focus group your projects and design by committee and whatever else nonsensical garbage others have imagined I've said.

What I've said is that you should create games others want to play. Your work isn't art until others want to experience it. It remains unrealized work until it has an audience. Your message does not exist unless others receive it.

If you have idea X, Y, and Z, you are free to have them and make a game about them. That isn't the issue. The issue is that people need to be told that X, Y, and Z need to be tweaked in order to reach their intended audience. They need to be tweaked in order for the creative message to arrive. They need to be tweaked in order to even create the artistic expression.

A raw idea is worth nearly nothing. An idea refined for an audience to enjoy is worth the enjoyment of the audience and the self-satisfaction it brings of having been heard as an artist.

As a writer, I've learned this the hard way. I remain unpublished for several factors, one of which includes that I have issues catering "to a mainstream audience". But each piece of feedback I receive tells me how to do that a little better. It shows me how to refine my craft a little better so that my artistic expression can reach an audience.

I have never been told that X story won't sell well. I've only ever been told that "X Product isn't good enough" (in far more polite terms, most of the time).

The advice "Create a game you want to play" ignores the simple reality of the world. The reality that EXECUTION of what you create matters. Create whatever you want all day long, but if it isn't executed very well, it will fail as even artistic expression.

Think of it in terms of food, if that helps.

You can mix and match all sorts of different ingredients and flavors and make them look pretty and interesting on a plate... But, if you execute the dish incorrectly, nobody is going to want to eat it. It will taste awful. At which point, all that work you put forth was a waste of time. Your artistic expression became meaningless because it doesn't taste good.

"Create a game you want to play" is incomplete advice at best. "Create a game that is fun" is better advice.

Don't create a dish you would like to eat. Create one that others would find delicious.
 

Finnuval

Old Raven following Rainbows
Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2018
Messages
2,448
Reaction score
8,921
First Language
Dutch
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
Artistic expression, however, only reaches its zenith when your message is passed along to others. A creative never really remains content to only create for themselves
Now see here lies the problem Im having...

I agree with that first line : being shared exposed makes a piece of art reach its zenith.
However the line following that I can't agree with at all.

There are plenty of works I've made that will never see the light of day that I am content with as my goal with them isn't to share them but the process of creating them. They are created for the sole purpose of me. To satisfy my need to create and see the idea come to life through my hand - not for others to see or experience at all.

Not all expressions are a two-way street. Some are only to be expressed and never received.


And there is another part to it:
Don't create a dish you would like to eat. Create one that others would find delicious.
Unless your goal is to let the other taste something they haven't tasted before. You can't know if they'll like it or not but you can let them taste it.
 

Tai_MT

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
5,622
Reaction score
5,144
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMV
@Finnuval

You're free to disagree with that, but you've also missed one of the first points I've made. The one about creating only for yourself. If you are your audience, then who cares? You are creating something for yourself.

The entire post isn't about people who want to create for themselves. It also isn't meant to be a breeding ground for people who want to just yell "gotcha!" at me while ignoring the portions that validate their own viewpoint (I understand this tendency on the internet as well. The desire to feel clever by nitpicking and ignoring context as well as what is previously said just to try to point out hypocrisy or prove someone wrong. It's hilarious in how ubiquitous it is and how often it makes people not actually listen).

My post is about what you have to do when your audience isn't just yourself. When your audience is a small group of people. When your audience is a large group of people.

There is no advice to be had for just "I create for myself because I simply like the act of creation". I mean... good for you? Why would anyone ever think that I'm telling people to not do that? What warped mind ever conceives this is the point of the advice? Honestly, who reads that and goes, "This person is telling me I should never make a piece of artwork for only myself!"? Well... other than someone who is just looking for something to disagree with? Someone looking for conflict and arguments?

Even then, "Create a game you want to play" isn't given with the "create for the sake of creation" mentality in mind. It is given with the (false) assumption that if you make something you like for an audience... your audience will automatically enjoy it just because you do. This is basically how everyone on the forums uses it.

Anyway, I've also said that creatives are never content to create for themselves forever. They all eventually want an audience. Do they want an audience for all of their work? No. But, I never said they did.
 

Finnuval

Old Raven following Rainbows
Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2018
Messages
2,448
Reaction score
8,921
First Language
Dutch
Primarily Uses
RMMZ
Ugh... Why did I even try
 

Tai_MT

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
5,622
Reaction score
5,144
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMV
The more important question is:

Why did you write the first reply when this was in my post? Why waste time arguing a point I already conceded?

"So, to that end:

1. If you are creating strictly for yourself, then you need only worry about whether or not you enjoy the end product."
 

C64_Mat

System Masters
Veteran
Joined
Apr 3, 2021
Messages
90
Reaction score
77
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMV
@Tai_MT

Sorry, I think we got our wires crossed on the artist part - I was envisioning artists who paint (for example), the kind whose work appears in galleries. Not artists who create for others, e.g. follow a proposal for a book cover, or some such.

You do make some excellent points in your response, you absolutely do - I think we're just coming at things from different angles. I honestly believe that if I don't enjoy playing my own game, why would my potential audience? :)

I've seen a fair few people who immediately embrace the "go big or go home" mentality fail spectacularly when they have no knowledge base to start from. It's never bad advice to encourage someone to start small because you can only go up from there, rather than becoming frustrated if things go pear shaped.



There's a saying in the Fire Emblem community when it comes to talking objectively about things like unit viability: PEMN. Personal Experience Means Nothing. I find that phrase can occasionally apply to life too. Just because you had an easy time doesn't mean everyone will. We're all highly different. I've seen people struggle with stuff I found really simple, and I've seen folks gel with something immediately.

In the interest of ensuring someone can flourish, never tell them to go big off the bat. If they want to, let them make that choice and be a guiding hand for them. But always encourage people to spend time learning the basics first. Tutorials exist for a reason. Some folk just move slower and actually want some visual learning.
I agree! My reply didn't come across as I meant it to, it seems.

I don't mean "go big or go home". I simply mean "make what you want to make right now". That could be something huge and sprawling, or it could mean something like To The Moon.

That's all I meant.
 

Tai_MT

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
5,622
Reaction score
5,144
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMV
@C64_Mat

That's my point as well, but it's more fleshed out.

My point is that you should create a game that is fun. "Create a game that is fun" is far better advice than "Create a game you enjoy". If you create a fun game, then you've created a game you enjoy by default. But, it also has the added benefit of being fun to others... if you want it to be fun to others.

That's the reason I'm saying "Create a game you enjoy!" is at best "incomplete" advice.

It is the consequences of this incomplete advice I rail against. Not the concept of "create a fun game" or the concept of "create because you just want to create".

I just find it less problematic for new devs to think, "I want to create a game that is fun" instead of "I want to create a game I enjoy". One of these leaves a dev more flexible to change than the other. You run into less of your typical "Digital Homicide" studio stories if we can teach new devs to be flexible to refining their vision rather than telling them it's okay to be inflexible.

That's my two cents on it, anyway. I want new devs to be more receptive to criticism and more willing to change parts of their projects that just don't work rather than hold onto them out of ego ("It's the game I enjoy!").

As for the artists part:

I just wanted you to clarify your point because I was going to try to convince you that just because a work is made for a large audience and sold, doesn't mean the artist is creatively bankrupt or "a sell out" or whatever it's called anymore if you had meant it as written. I wanted to be sure exactly of what you were saying first.
 

AphoticAmaranth

An Ordinary Human
Veteran
Joined
Mar 29, 2020
Messages
94
Reaction score
83
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
RMMV
I think it is wise to custom a fair amount of stuff so your project stands out. Surely one could get away without customizing EVERYTHING, but enough to separate it from other games is pretty important.

Agreed. But that doesn't necessarily mean avoiding the RTP like the plague. You could, for instance, edit the RTP. Or use the RTP in addition to custom assets. I just don't agree with the whole "RTP bad" mentality that some people seem to have.

If you create a fun game, then you've created a game you enjoy by default.

I'd disagree, because different people have different opinions on what "fun" is. What's fun to most people may not necessarily be fun to you. In fact I'd argue that the opposite is true. Unless you're a narcissist or a masochist, a game that you enjoy would most likely be enjoyable to at least a few other players.

Using food as an example, it is possible for a lactose-intolerant person to bake a cake that is objectively delicious, but that they themselves are unable to enjoy.
 

uglywolf

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Messages
67
Reaction score
81
First Language
Malay
Primarily Uses
RMMV
Not sure if I ever disagree to advices, tend to thought myself that I took the note; but using them or not are different matter entirely.

I mean, 'advice' are not a 'warning' to begin with.

When people adds "DO NOT" stuff on their 'advice', surely that is already either 'personal opinion' or 'warning'.
[Advice] is something that tells people to "Proceed Carefully" while supporting them to keep going, rather than "Don't Go".

It is more like "If you're taking that path, your step will be important."
Not "I won't go there if I were you", since that is already an [Opinion].

Then again, it might just my personal opinion.
 
Last edited:

The Stranger

The Faceless Friend
Veteran
Joined
Sep 14, 2012
Messages
3,606
Reaction score
24,078
First Language
British English
Primarily Uses
RMMV
@uglywolf I understand what you're saying. Advice should serve to help inform someone's opinions, decisions, and actions. It shouldn't be a list of things to do or not to do.
 

uglywolf

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Messages
67
Reaction score
81
First Language
Malay
Primarily Uses
RMMV
Like yeah, personally I'd say...
[Advice] is not something to be [Agreed] or [Disagree], it is more to additional information of consequences to one's decision, good or bad. And tend to make way to the ones who need, rarely to those who seek.

[Good Advice] are not just about its content, It is also about how it phrased.

"That is a thorny path you're heading to, boy. I ain't going there if I were you. BeTtEr nOt tO."

"That is a thorny path ahead of you. Personally, I won't go there. But, if you have to, mind your head, and watch your step. A single mistake, costs million price."

-Two different situation of one guy saying things to the person who about to step on High-Speed Escalator.
 

KenKrath

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Apr 4, 2015
Messages
218
Reaction score
180
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
As someone who actually took classes in storytelling, it's literally impossible to avoid tropes. The harder you try to avoid cliches and tropes, the more cliches and tropes you get than if you had decided to use ones that'd fit your story, if that makes sense.
I think because now there is a trope for EVERYTHING!! LOL.
 

Bernkastelwitch

Veteran
Veteran
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
Messages
121
Reaction score
96
First Language
English
Primarily Uses
I think because now there is a trope for EVERYTHING!! LOL.

Pretty much. There's probably a trope for trying to avoid tropes, too.

Instead of trying to fight against them, use the tropes that make sense for your story. It's better than harming your writing trying your hardest to do the impossible.
 

The Stranger

The Faceless Friend
Veteran
Joined
Sep 14, 2012
Messages
3,606
Reaction score
24,078
First Language
British English
Primarily Uses
RMMV
I know there's a trope for subverting tropes. lol. xD

 

TheoAllen

Self-proclaimed jack of all trades
Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2012
Messages
6,493
Reaction score
8,320
First Language
Indonesian
Primarily Uses
RMVXA
Any advice has its own merit on its own, so I wouldn't fully disagree. The only advice I would fully disagree with is unsolicited advice. People are free to preach their wisdom, but don't shove it to my face when I don't want it, especially when they do not know the context and the background.
 
Last edited:

Latest Threads

Latest Profile Posts

My new 49" monitor has been dispatched from the warehouse. Will it arrive tomorrow? The day after? I love that we can track packages now, even if it does only tell me when it's left that end and when it's arrived at the local centre. As long as it doesn't end up in Melbourne again, which has happened before ...
My friend's doing a surprise stream of my game Origin Hunt on Twitch here ! Feel free to stop by :yhappy:
Me, designing it a long time ago: Having an optional boss fight as a random chance to trigger when you fish in a certain spot with a certain type of bait is fun! Cool idea!
Me, trying to playtest everything again: oh god just let me see the boss, my bag is so full of fish!
both love and pain have no boundaries

Forum statistics

Threads
117,227
Messages
1,105,663
Members
153,382
Latest member
davidredfield56
Top