(almost) no healing items/skills (in combat)

[Parallax Panda]

So I've been thinking about balancing the combat for my game and I've come to realize that one of the things I don't enjoy myself is the abundance of healing items/spells the player have access to in most RPG's. You usually start off with little to no money and TP so it's always challenging in the beginning, but about halfway into the game you more often than not have a decent healer as well as ~x40 healing items in your inventory.

At that point, the only real danger are usually enemies that does massive single target damage or decent AoE damage (unless you have good AoE healing skills that is). Also I guess, enemies who can spam skills inflicting states such as petrify, bind, sleep, blind or confusion that renders your characters useless. Slowly killing your characters while you're waiting for the state to disappear, unable to use items or spells.

So, I was wondering if it would be a good idea to make an RM-RPG without healing potions or healing magic (that can be used in combat). Maybe just add a few very rare powerful HP restore items in the game that could be used that way? Maybe even going so far as not allowing the player to heal whenever they want outside of combat either, just at an inn or specific checkpoints etc?

I can see how this could be a problem and if not carefully planned by the dev, could make the player get stuck. But I'd like to find a way to limit healing that forces the player to be more careful (which I hope would make even mob encounters more meaningful and exciting).

Ideas?

 

[shockra]

Some games are designed so that the party recovers all health after the battle ends. In games like this, healing options are very limited. In Cosmic Star Heroine, for instance, items work by only allowing one use per battle, while healing abilities (along with most abilities) are restricted after use until either the battle ends or the character defends, which allows the ability to be used again.

 

[Nantas]

Maybe you could make the healing spells and items less beneficial.

For example, my best healing spell gives a global cooldown of 2 turns to all my skills, and as the skills are a very important matter in my game, it makes the healing skill less viable and then makes the player think "Can I wait a few turns to attack or can I not ?"

The real question is the balancing system of your skills. If you have a mechanic like a cooldown, don't hesitate to use it or even overly use it, but always with intelligence.
Try to make things fun and don't hesitate either to make some skills less viable, especially skills that may be used a lot. But never make them too little viable. It's all a matter of balance.

The question of healing items, however, is very difficult to handle well. Maybe think of Final Fantasy series, in which you have access to A LOT of healing items in the end and still have some difficulties ?

 

[bgillisp]

I think if you were to do this, you'd have to take one of two approaches:

1: Limited uses of healing in battle. Maybe the player can only do 3 single target heals, 1 full target heal, and 1 revive per battle, and that is it? Would force them to manage when to use those skills.

2: Do what Betrayal at Krondor did. That game didn't have healing at all, instead you had a spell to transfer your health to another player. However, I will say one of the reasons I think it worked in that game is you had health and stamina, and hits came off your stamina until you were out, then you took HP damage. So you had some sort of mini-buffer to prevent HP loss.

I think any other approach is going to be annoying at best, or a guidedangit at worst.

 

[kovak]

Actor's has their own Inventory

Limit not only the number of consumables they'd be able to equip but also to limit the stacks of the same said item.
You could say that they have 8 consumable slots and each stack up to 3
​

They can use comsumables as long as they know how to

Make skills that requires items to be used and anyone can learn them, this could make dedicated support classes even offensive cuz you could make item usage to poison enemies, to raise elemental damage done on target...as long as you still has items to cast
​

Allow Actors to regenerate out of combat

With this approach i'd avoid random encounters, i'd add some sort of healing after battle as well to balance things
​

Sudden healing comes with salt

Idea here is that healing just avoids the inevitable death. Any sort of healing applies a debuff that reduces the amount healed as damage on every turn. BLEED states would make more sense here and this is somehow more realistic for me, no medic would be able to patch up somebody and say "go for it tiger"​

 

[EpicFILE]

Maybe you can limit the amount of healing when you're travelling.
Say, you can only heal up to 60% of max HP when you explore the dungeons or world map.
When you hit 60% HP, you can't heal anymore.
Healing is effective only at 1-59%.
If you want to fully recover, you have to sleep at inn or camp.

Maybe you can add auto-regenerate at map too.
But remember to limit it at 60% only.

 

[HumanNinjaToo]

I have similar thoughts on healing/recovery items. I prefer that a game make those types of items scarce. In order to make up for the scarcity of healing/recovery items then I think the party should auto-heal after each battle as well. This makes healing spells and healing items a commodity that can be saved for use in combat. I don't like the idea of having to manage resources outside of battle so much. I can see how their may be some exceptions, such as: poison/bleed damage that persists after a battle, or trap damage that takes place while exploring, etc. I suppose I would rather, as a player, only have to manage my resources within the context of battles.

 

[Andar]

It's basically a balance question.

Unlimited healing during combat usually means that the player can't loose combat. Is that what you want?

If you want any challenge and option for the player to loose, then you either need to limit healing in combat or give the enemies insta-kill options. And players get ver, frustrated with enemies insta-killing them.


In my planned games however, I will simply use basic facts to explain that.
Bandaging a wound and applying herbs to it requires time and rest. Do you really want to tell your fighters to keep their swordarm still when the enemy is charging, so that the healer can bandage their wounds there?
There will be cheap bandages to use outside and after combat only, but during combat only expensive true healing magic will work.

And that will not only be logical, but also force players to really think about tactics and what to prepare (buy) for combat.

 

[Countyoungblood]

Restricting resouces is a great way to add challenge but you have to make conciderations for that.

For example poison. If it doesnt come off on its own after so many turns or after ending battle you would need to cure it with a spell or item.

If gold is scarce then antidotes are relatively expensive. This is fine but needs to be considered.

An area full of poisonous monsters might prove to be more of a challenge in preparation which still can be fun.

I made an example in another thread youd probably appreciate/understand.

Here:

Reguarding weaker spells imagine this:

Drop mp regeneration to zero. No potions.
3 spells to choose from.

Fire 10 dmg 2mp
Fira 25 dmg 3mp
Firaga 50 dmg 5mp

You have 10 mp.
Monster1 15/60HP
Monster2 60/60HP

Can you kill the monsters using just these spells?


Im a big fan of resource management as a challenge.

 

[Parallax Panda]

@shockra
While I don't like the concept of fully healing the party at the end of combat (it feels to vanilla for me), the ideas of limiting usages either to once or twice per encounter, or as you mentioned, until you "defend" is more interesting mechanics to me.

@Nantas
Making healing skills/items super crappy doesn't really solve the problem since it just means one or two characters would spend their turns on constantly spamming those crappy heals (which would feel very unfulfilling for the player I think). Using a cool-down on healing skills on the other hand is a decent method, although it feels weird to put a cool down on item usage from a logical perspective(?) ...not that games need to be logical, but still.
However, I've no cool down on any of my skills so far and I'm not planning on adding it either. I'm more leaning towards limiting the usage of some skills to once or twice per encounter.

@bgillisp
While the second suggestion might work well for some kind of roguelike dungeon crawler where you try to go as far as possible, I like the second idea much better. Fact is, I've considered giving most characters a personal skill which would allow them to once per encounter heal/defend themselves in battle. Something like how "Second Wind" in D&D4th.ED works. One such skill for each party member combined with very rare and/or expensive healing items might work?

@kovak

Actor's has their own Inventory
Limit not only the number of consumables they'd be able to equip but also to limit the stacks of the same said item.
You could say that they have 8 consumable slots and each stack up to 3

Not a terribly bad idea, and I think it's possible with Yanfly's(?) plugins. Although, 8 slots that can stack to x3 is 24(!) items. Waaay too much for this to affect the game play in any meaningful way in my opinion. If you'd want to limit the consumable items in this way you'd probably have to give each character 1-4 slots (non stack-able). Because in most (non boss) RPG battles, even if you have x40 healing potions you usually only use like 2-5 during a single battle, right?
The downside to this idea though is that you'd probably have to manually go in and refill those "personal item slots" after you've used something in battle which would be a hassle for the player. I know I wouldn't enjoy doing that after every third battle.

They can use comsumables as long as they know how to
Make skills that requires items to be used and anyone can learn them, this could make dedicated support classes even offensive cuz you could make item usage to poison enemies, to raise elemental damage done on target...as long as you still has items to cast

I like this idea. It's a valid and fun game mechanic, but it doesn't solve this specific "healing-overkill" problem since whoever knows the right skill can still spam the heal pots and stuff. Unless they're expensive, but in that case it's the price of the consumables that are the real solution to the questions asked in this topic.

Allow Actors to regenerate out of combat
With this approach i'd avoid random encounters, i'd add some sort of healing after battle as well to balance things

Not a big fan of auto-healing at the end of combat. I only prefer it in games where I don't care about the combat and just want to blaze though as quick as possible. I admit it might work in some games, like a boss rush game for example. But that being said, to me it often comes across as a very lazy mechanic for very lazy players.
Since fatigue or damage doesn't carry over, this mechanic isolates each battle as their own challenge. I think the problem with this is that the challenge of "The Dungeon" disappears and all the focus will be on individual battles instead. In that regard one very challenging battle would probably be much better in such a game than a dungeon with 10-15 easier battles in a row.

Sudden healing comes with salt
Idea here is that healing just avoids the inevitable death. Any sort of healing applies a debuff that reduces the amount healed as damage on every turn. BLEED states would make more sense here and this is somehow more realistic for me, no medic would be able to patch up somebody and say "go for it tiger"

Not 100% sure if I understood what you meant here, but if you are suggesting something like each healing item/skill temporarily lowers the characters max HP until they sleep at an inn, then I'd say that's a pretty cool mechanic that I'd definitely consider.

@EpicFILE
I don't know if I'll use it but I like this idea. It makes you at least want to be careful when you enter a dungeon fresh out of town since you don't want to lose that "un-heal:able" 40% of your health.
Hm... you know what, another way of using this exact mechanic, but differently, might be to instead give the party a health boost/buff that adds X%HP (on top of their original max HP) whenever they sleep at an inn (more expensive rooms could give slightly more). Only way to regain that HP boost when it's gone would be to sleep at the inn again.

@HumanNinjaToo
I thought of that too. How bothersome it feels to access the items/skills outside of combat. I reality it might not be such a hassle, but it can sure feel that way. In battle, if its a classic turn based RM-styled battle, you're already inside the menu system at all times and skills and items are just one or two clicks away.

 

[jonthefox]

I never liked the idea of being able to use healing items in battle. Something that's a relic of the past imo, and which people tend to cling to the idea of because they generally prefer familiar and/or less challenging games.

Even outside of battle, I don't think they should be in great abundance, because then it's really not much different than a system where your HP is restored after each battle - it's just more tedious.

When I ask myself, "What purpose do potions/healing items serve?" I tend to say...they're something to give the player another option. Players like choices and options. If they don't have a magic heavy party (and don't have the mp pool to freely use cure spell), they choose to buy a few potions instead of the latest equipment upgrades. If they do have a magic heavy party, maybe they want to save up their MP for the upcoming boss. If they're using a thief character whose combat stats aren't the best, they can benefit from the fact that he earns more gold ( = more potions) and finds more items (= more potions). In this case they're still not an endless supply, but function as how they should be imo: a different pathway to healing than magic.

 

[Countyoungblood]

I never liked the idea of being able to use healing items in battle. Something that's a relic of the past imo, and which people tend to cling to the idea of because they generally prefer familiar and/or less challenging games.

Even outside of battle, I don't think they should be in great abundance, because then it's really not much different than a system where your HP is restored after each battle - it's just more tedious.

When I ask myself, "What purpose do potions/healing items serve?" I tend to say...they're something to give the player another option. Players like choices and options. If they don't have a magic heavy party (and don't have the mp pool to freely use cure spell), they choose to buy a few potions instead of the latest equipment upgrades. If they do have a magic heavy party, maybe they want to save up their MP for the upcoming boss. If they're using a thief character whose combat stats aren't the best, they can benefit from the fact that he earns more gold ( = more potions) and finds more items (= more potions). In this case they're still not an endless supply, but function as how they should be imo: a different pathway to healing than magic.

Very good point about potions being somewhat of a priest replacement.

This to me is why i think potions mp/hp should be expensive. It makes sense to say the player shouldnt be able to afford an excess of both.

At least in a game intended to be challenging.

 

[TheoAllen]

So, I was wondering if it would be a good idea to make an RM-RPG without healing potions or healing magic (that can be used in combat)

Good, but little micro management like you have to access menu to heal your party every time the battle is over might annoy your players. You might as well as make it no healing at all and start with full HP for next battle. This will make a battle like a puzzle every time though.

Maybe just add a few very rare powerful HP restore items in the game that could be used that way?

Problem with rare items, usually because it's too rare that player would end up not using it till the game ends. because they would just think "just in case".

Maybe even going so far as not allowing the player to heal whenever they want outside of combat either, just at an inn or specific checkpoints etc?

Might be good, but I'm not sure how to design it. Although I feel like heal only in certain checkpoint feels like an artificial challenge for me. You have no idea where is the next checkpoint, and keep praying your party not going to die before the next checkpoint. At some point, you might start feels like it's unfair because you can't plan out what is gonna happen.

 

[velan235]

I think its about game design, would your game approach resource management or tactical expert or in between of both?

some JRPG gives you "full heal" after any battle , to ensure you dish out the best strategy in every battle , making random battle meaningful and difficult

while some give you chip damage from random encounter , so you have to "survive" the dungeon hence with all the random battle, some encounter also designed to waste your MP (like mana drain / physical immune opponent) or demi (force you to do some healing)

 

[Parallax Panda]

Many interesting ideas in this thread which have made me think about how I want my own game to work quite a lot.

I'm currently leaning towards giving each character one (slightly different) skill that they can use to regain some or all HP, but only once every encounter, like I mentioned in a previous post. It seems to be a good way of granting some limited healing without making the player feel like it's to valuable to use since the charges will automatically reset for the next encounter. But you would still need time think about when you use it since you can't spam it. Maybe I'll even make it so halfway into the game, when you've reached a higher level, you'll be able to get an additional charge on your limited healing skills? I dunno, that depends on if I think I'll be necessary for the game balance or not.

There will be no auto-healing at the end of combat with these healing skills though. But any negative status effects or de-buffs such as poison would be removed. And items to remove/cure those status effects will also be sold/found throughout the game too.

Besides that I'm debating if I should include a few more powerful healing items (or maybe add just one unique equipment piece later in the game with a permanent regenerative buff on that one character who equips it). A single regenerative equipment piece wouldn't make the player think "I'll save it for later", they'd just equip it right away probably. But as someone said, adding rare (in this case healing) items might make the player not use them and save them for "later". Even if they're about to die they might still rather load a previous save file and try again then use their precious items.

Worth mentioning is that there will be on-map sprites for all monsters (some that can be avoided too), and no random encounters what so ever.

Also, there will probably be ways to grant your entire party temporary max HP buff(s) in town by sleeping at the inn, eating at a restaurant etc. An idea based on rethinking @EpicFILE 's suggestion. It would allow the player to spend some cash to make themselves tougher before entering a dungeon/dangerous area.

I wonder if this will be enough healing without being plentyfull? ...I guess lots of play testing will give me the answer.

@velan235
I'm more going for the "surviving-the-dungeon-is-the-challenge" kinda game play. Which is why I wanted to limit the healing to begin with, since it counters the idea of each encounter slowly chipping away of your HP and MP.

@TheoAllen
I see what you mean with needing to access the menu to heal after every battle being tedious. I agree. But I think you might be able to streamline that for the player if you wanted to. Using plugins you could set up a special button on the keyboard as "quick heal" and when pressed it would show the party members portraits, left to right. As well as how many healing items you have. Then you could use the arrow keys (again, left or right) to select a portrait and the action button to use one healing item on that character. If done right, it could be very intuitive and effortless I think. Might take some effort for the dev to set it up though.

@jonthefox
I agree that abundance of healing just makes it a non-challenging tedious task for the player to use that healing potion or cure spell. I'm trying to do something else with my game, although we'll see how that goes.

 

[gstv87]

calculate the progress of the game as total damage over total HP.
if there's no concievable way in which the player can deal with the total damage with the available HP, then, introduce means of healing.

if you want to *not* use means of healing, reduce the total damage, or increase the total HP.

 

[TheoAllen]

That comes a question in my mind. If you are making healing limited use in a battle, how would you deal with the boss battle which usually took longer than the usual encounter? The "infinite" healing sources usually become a key of HP management for a long battle, because boss might hits hard which forces you to use either item / healing skills without you to worry about running out of healing.

 

[Parallax Panda]

@TheoAllen
That is a good question which I haven't thought about yet. What to do about boss battles indeed since you want them to be more dangerous and a little longer than the average encounter. You gave me a new problem to think about there.

 

[Countyoungblood]

Interesting point theo.
Without potions bosses would have to do less damage and have less hp themselves yet be stronger/smarter than the mobs.

This project is very much my taste. Looking forward to seeing it released.

 

[jonthefox]

also be careful, if everyone has a healing skill that can only be used once per battle, players will notice if it's possible to artificially delay battles in order to use their healing skills. This could become an annoyance for the player but one which they feel compelled to do if it's the optimal decision.