Arcs where the main character changes

[Kinger556]

How do you people feel about separate arcs where the main character changes? Weather he dies, imprisoned, or simply isn't the focal point of the story anymore. Do you think its a good idea to cut the time the player spends with the main character? Or what if he remains in the story but isn't the protagonist anymore?

I'm asking because I've been working on MV and I've developed a story that involves time passing and the protagonist changing, but I want to know how people feel about this.

 

[Silent Darkness]

Treading a fine line here.

If you're going to make the 'main character' stop being part of the storyline temporarily or permanently, you should give the player a good reason to feel invested in these other characters.

Building up the other characters alongside the main character can work, or if we're talking about the protoganist getting old and his role being replaced by newer people, then i'd slow down the project's pace around there, to characterize these new characters.

 

[Niten Ichi Ryu]

It really depends on how the levelling happens, and the linearity of your story(ies) . Ever heard of SaGa frontier 2? They handled that pretty well.

 

[hiromu656]

I think it could make for interesting story telling, but it has to be done in a way that isn't also a burden to the player when it comes to gameplay. If the game is focusing on time changing, would you get new party members as well, or will they also be effected by the time change? Like Niten Ichi said, how the leveling happens also plays a big part in this. You never want your story to hurt gameplay (at least that's how I feel).

 

[stupid enough to like FF13]

It can be a fantastic method to develop other characters and can shift up gameplay, especially if it's a game where there's a main character who is always required to be in the active party. I plan to have a few moments where the hero in my current project is absent from the party for one reason or another.

 

[Kyonko802]

Chrono Trigger did this excellently. I think the key is to make sure the rest of the party is as likeable as you can make them. You should be making everyone equally interesting anyways.

 

[NichG]

I'm going to focus on the gameplay aspects here since other people have covered the story stuff already.

The more the player is encouraged by gameplay elements to make investments and design decisions with respect to their characters, the harder it is to make this feel reasonable I think. If the player is expending one-use items, wealth, or even just their own time in making skill choices/etc, then when the game takes all that away then the player is going to feel put out by it, even if its awesome plot-wise. If the player suspects that this may happen, they may start making weird gameplay decisions in order to try to minimize the impact, such as de-equipping characters they think are likely to leave the party soon, or even just holding off on spending any resources on the characters until the end-game.

So if you're going to do this, you have to try to address that somehow. Can the new character inherit the old character's abilities? Maybe have a retraining system where you can pay a minor cost to reset spent resources, and then when a character leaves the party it triggers a free auto-retrain on them?

 

[Chaos Avian]

If you are going to do this (I don't mind it too much), you need to make your other characters as good as or on par with the hero. Xenoblade Chronicles did this, for awhile the MC Shulke due to story reasons wasn't available to fight but battle wise (although he was a tide-turner) he wasn't really missed much in battle. If you can have a battles and boss fights and the MC won't be missed much mechanic wise then go for it. Juuust justify the reason why, don't exactly want to turn into Cinema Sins here lol

You could go the SaGa route and just have different arcs through different character perspectives. Or have multiple perspectives anyway, just to make the story flow/ make more sense.

 

[SinのAria]

Plenty of games have done this. I myself have done this to an extent.

I think the most important thing is that all the potential heroes need to be just as important/memorable as another.

 

[Volz Rocksti]

Do you think its a good idea to cut the time the player spends with the main character? Or what if he remains in the story but isn't the protagonist anymore?

A shining example for me with regards to your examples is Kalas from Baten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean. 

IN CASE THERE ARE SOME HARDCORE BATEN KAITOS FANS HERE THAT WANT TO AVOID SPOILERS - STOP READING

Kalas, the main character, abandons the party about two-thirds of the way through the main quest. It turns out he was working for the baddies the entire time and the focal point of the story swings over to Xhela, a strong secondary protagonist and female lead. Eventually, Kalas rejoins the party, but it would have been just as good an experience if the story had continued with him removed from the party. Basically, the strong writing of the game and subtle nods to Kalas' corruption (experienced in replays of the game) lend itself to such a dramatic toss-up of the party, even though it didn't last and Kalas rejoined the main party.

As long as the writing and character development supports the removal, etc of the protagonist, the world is your oyster. Without sufficient motivation or set-up, however, you cheat the player out of an otherwise cool and shocking experience and replace it with frustration.

 

[Wavelength]

Temporary changes to the main character are fine (e.g. the MC gets sick, gets captured and you need to rescue him, etc.), permanently switching the main character very early on in the story is fine, telling the story from many different perspectives (i.e. two or more "main characters" where the player will see parts of the story from the perspective of each one) is fine, and letting the player choose who to play as for segments or for the entire game is great.

I would recommend against permanently (or even non-permanently but for a long period of time) switching the main character once you're about 15% of the way into the story, though.  While this can be an effective narrative device, it can make the player feel cheated of the connection they have made with the first main character, and by this point (if your writing is any good) they have made a strong connection with this character.  The effect is especially extreme in video games, where the player is asked to "be" the main character and to "think for them" and control their fate.

 

[Lars Ulrika]

I think a perfect exemple about that is Mother 3 where you spend a good quarter / third of the game juggling between different parties in different places and all are absolutely catching the player's attention and interest.

As long as the characters are well written I guess it's ok....for a time. 

As wavelength explained well, I think after some point in the game, the party shouldn't change anymore and focus on some precise characters, developping their personality etc.

 

[SinのAria]

I actually disagree with having it set after a certain point. I think that if your work is really well done, even a main/key/important/noteworthy character being replaced can be very powerful. Take Valkyria Chronicles as an example of powerful character change. At a certain point, one of your characters change. This is done in such a way as to compel the player to really have an emotional feel for the characters. It makes your attachment to the characters stronger rather than weaker.

Similarly, I think that as long as you have a compelling reason for the character change and the new characters are very attractive, it can really keep the player going.

As another thought, think of it like sequels. Essentially, instead of having a separate sequel, you would be having the sequels all in one game. As a lot of my games have visual novels as their inspiration, I write my games in chapter by chapter format. Essentially, One chapter could be about one character, then the 'sequel' to that chapter could be about another.  Visual novels have done character swapping as well.

Really, the important thing is to ensure that you do not lower your game's value by swapping around. If swapping around makes it so that players feel that the characters are no longer attractive or the game is no longer interesting, then don't swap. If swapping around is done in a way that makes players want to play more for whatever reason (maybe your main character was kidnapped, killed, etc. and you want to rescue/avenge/etc.), then it is done well. If the characters keep making the players feel immersed, then it is done well.

It all depends on how well the game maker feels that they can manage it.

 

[Nebuerys]

Since I'm likely to be the most invested in experiencing the story, with gameplay only coming second, I'd love to see how people, both the devs and players, approach the killing off of or permanent removal of MCs from the game. For one, I don't just see it as a means to advance a plot but it also invokes the feeling of betrayal, despair and helplessness to not only the characters but the players themselves, depending on the manner of the MC's departure. 

 

[Wavelength]

Since I'm likely to be the most invested in experiencing the story, with gameplay only coming second, I'd love to see how people, both the devs and players, approach the killing off of or permanent removal of MCs from the game. For one, I don't just see it as a means to advance a plot but it also invokes the feeling of betrayal, despair and helplessness to not only the characters but the players themselves, depending on the manner of the MC's departure. 

This is exactly what I will feel if the removal is well-done... which is precisely why I will hate it so much!  I don't play video games to feel helpless and betrayed; I play them to feel successful and worthy.  If you take away a character I (as the player) was trying my best to protect and help, it is going to leave me with a very sour taste about your game.

But that's just me!  By the looks of it there are other people like me in this thread who enjoy agency and power fantasy, and there are people unlike me who prefer unpredictability and impact.  I guess that's what's so interesting about narrative - you really have to know your audience.

I think this is something that mostly goes beyond gameplay vs. story too - I feel the same sense of loss and resentment toward the character deaths in, for example, Harry Potter (novel), or Now and Then, Here and There (anime).

 

[Chaos Avian]

What about in the case of generation shifts? For example in Phantasy Star 3 you go through several generations of a family line progressing through the game. There's Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (Anime) as well tat does the same thing with throw backs and references to the older generations and usually when an older protag joins the current, they usually take a backseat role.

 

[SinのAria]

"Agarest: Generations of War" did the character shifts/generation shifts fairly well.  Essentially your MC had to stay behind in order to become a seal, the chosen girl for your MC had a child, but stayed with the MC. The child's stats and appearance were based on the parents, obviously.

However, an interesting thing they did was that you could make clones of your characters so that even if the real one wasn't there, they could still participate.

 

[Nebuerys]

What about in the case of generation shifts? For example in Phantasy Star 3 you go through several generations of a family line progressing through the game. There's Jojo's Bizarre Adventure (Anime) as well tat does the same thing with throw backs and references to the older generations and usually when an older protag joins the current, they usually take a backseat role.

Never played any Phantasy Star title before, but as for JJBL, I can't say that the anime/manga's MC changes have the same impact as having the main guy get swapped midway into a story.

JJBL's MCs, from the first Jojo til the alternate universe Jojo's were given closures for their own respective arcs which I believe is what the average player expects to see. There's a whole lot of difference between an MC change halfway into an unfinished story and an MC taking a backseat role in a sequel after his story ends.

 

[SinのAria]

Never played any Phantasy Star title before, but as for JJBL, I can't say that the anime/manga's MC changes have the same impact as having the main guy get swapped midway into a story.

JJBL's MCs, from the first Jojo til the alternate universe Jojo's were given closures for their own respective arcs which I believe is what the average player expects to see. There's a whole lot of difference between an MC change halfway into an unfinished story and an MC taking a backseat role in a sequel after his story ends.

In Jojo's, at least for the original few 'arcs' the MC did change halfway into an unfinished story and the younger generations ended up finishing it. So I think that as long as it is done well, it isn't a big deal. The issue is balancing things.

 

[Nebuerys]

In Jojo's, at least for the original few 'arcs' the MC did change halfway into an unfinished story and the younger generations ended up finishing it. So I think that as long as it is done well, it isn't a big deal. The issue is balancing things.

Which one? I remember every Jojo from 1-7 having their own stories have a definitive closure.