As I'm getting to know RPGM MV I'm seeing a lot of missing features from previous versions. Why is that?

TheSlyder

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I understand that some things were sacrificed because they didn't play well with mobile platforms, which I get, but there are also some things that need plug-ins to do that feel like they should be a common sense feature built into the program. For example, choosing the rows/columns for sprite sheets just off the top of my head. I see comments here and there about how various things were easy to do in previous versions that require a lot of jumping through hoops now.

Why wouldn't each version become MORE user friendly, accessible, and powerful, as opposed to more limited? Surely it's not ALL because of compatibility with phones and browsers, is it?
 

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I've moved this thread to MV Support. Please be sure to post your threads in the correct forum next time. Thank you.

 

Andar

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Why wouldn't each version become MORE user friendly, accessible, and powerful, as opposed to more limited?
There are almost no difference in the UI or Options between Ace and MV, MV only improved on Ace - and Ace had no mobile versions.
The only thing that was limited due to the mobile versions was the map size (Ace allowed 500x500, MV has a max of 250x250 because mobiles can't handle large maps.

Everything else has nothing to do with mobility versions, you were simply wrongly informed in those cases.


It depends on how you define user friendlyness.

For example replacing manual layering with automated layering (from XP to VX) does increase the user friendliness because it makes mapping easier and the mapper does not have to take as much care and additional clicks to manually select a layer. It makes the mapping less powerfull (that is why some users switched to parallax mapping) but it is easier and less clicking.

Or limiting the tilesheet size, that one is there for performance reasons as the big tilesheets of XP had caused slowdown of both game and editor...
 

TheSlyder

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That makes sense. I hadn't considered the difference between ease of access and ease of maximizing potential. I'm thinking of things in terms of how to get the most out of the program, which requires a lot of extra steps, while getting the basics out of the program is extremely easy and quick. So thinking of it in those terms makes it less questionable to me. Most people using the program probably want a simple paint-by-numbers kind of results and aren't looking to make unconventional mechanics or concepts.

There's definitely some things that I'd hope to see in future versions or updates that seems better suited for UI (For example, the use of ! and $ on sprite sheets. Wouldn't it make more sense to have toggle-able checkboxes for those functions instead of manipulating the file itself?) Some things I think are probably due to my lack of understanding of the program though. I keep asking "Why can't I make common events with the conditions/image/movement settings like a standard event?" because it seems like an unnecessary limitation, but it may have some importance that I just don't understand yet.

I would definitely like to find a good source of learning how the software works as opposed to the standard "Here's how to accomplish X" style tutorials. Things like how events, graphics, etc. can influence performance, or understanding why event pages run in the order they do, etc. Ever come across any sources like that?

Edit: Just saw your signature and had a good laugh about my last question. Gonna check those links out!
 

TheoAllen

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If you look at RMMV Trinity on Switch, there's a lot of improvements on the editor itself such as this one.
Screenshot_340.jpg
Yes, the editor can be improved a lot better for user-friendliness.

Some things I think are probably due to my lack of understanding of the program though. I keep asking "Why can't I make common events with the conditions/image/movement settings like a standard event?" because it seems like an unnecessary limitation, but it may have some importance that I just don't understand yet.
Common events are "template" for event command. If you realize there's an event command named "Call common event". There is no reason why it even need graphics and all the things you asked.

I would definitely like to find a good source of learning how the software works as opposed to the standard "Here's how to accomplish X" style tutorials.
Theoretically you could reverse it to "why this things work" from "how to do this" style of tutorials. Like, why don't you try a different approach from the tutorial? you could learn things that the tutorial didn't tell you.

Things like how events, graphics, etc. can influence performance, or understanding why event pages run in the order they do, etc. Ever come across any sources like that?
The problem with this, it is hard to tell unless you know how the default engine works. Learn how the engine works, so you understand the context and you can start to ask a more accurate question.

About performance. If you're worried about the performance first before actually start to get the work, you probably never do the work. "I've been told not to use this because it hurts the performance" stuff like that, then you ended up not learning anything. You get scared before even start. So, it is advanced stuff that requires you to know the basics and the context before you can judge.
 

TheSlyder

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Common events are "template" for event command. If you realize there's an event command named "Call common event". There is no reason why it even need graphics and all the things you asked.
Yeah, it certainly isn't something that's needed often. I've run into a couple specific situations where it would be nice though. I was playing with the idea of destructible dirt tiles that compose most of the area and my first instinct was to make a common event of the dirt tile. The better solution I found was using a Yanfly plug-in that let's me establish a "parent" event that all designated events will mimic. I could still see the benefit in creating common events with their own triggers/conditions/images. Things that are reoccurring like NPCs that will be in each area, for example. Again though, there might be a better way to handle those instances and I just haven't learned it yet.

About performance. If you're worried about the performance first before actually start to get the work, you probably never do the work. "I've been told not to use this because it hurts the performance" stuff like that, then you ended up not learning anything. You get scared before even start. So, it is advanced stuff that requires you to know the basics and the context before you can judge.
That's true. It's better to dive in and get dirty with experience than checking, double-checking, triple-checking to make sure everything is set to get started for a "smooth" experience.
 

Andar

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Things like how events, graphics, etc. can influence performance, or understanding why event pages run in the order they do, etc.
A lot of this is due to the way the original programmer thought, followed by experiences and development over the time.
For example the name "parallax" in "parallax mapping" comes from the special way that background picture moves in comparison to the regular maptiles.
Then there came the step of the reduced mapping for VX (not VXAce) that was too far reduced from XP (a lot of people consider VX the worst RM version ever), and this resulted in people abusing the background picture for a map picture, using scripts to disable the parallax movement.
The mapping options have been improved since then in VXA and MV, but additionally in MV the parallax has a key (add ! to the beginning of the filename) that now automatically disables the parallax movement without need for scripts.

There are quite a few other examples like this where the game engine adopted changes that came from users (notetags and the meta function for example, that function is also new in MV), although that are things difficult to understand without knowing the developing history of the RM versions.
 

TheoAllen

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Yeah, it certainly isn't something that's needed often. I've run into a couple specific situations where it would be nice though. I was playing with the idea of destructible dirt tiles that compose most of the area and my first instinct was to make a common event of the dirt tile. The better solution I found was using a Yanfly plug-in that let's me establish a "parent" event that all designated events will mimic. I could still see the benefit in creating common events with their own triggers/conditions/images. Things that are reoccurring like NPCs that will be in each area, for example. Again though, there might be a better way to handle those instances and I just haven't learned it yet.
True, the event template has merit. But let's get back to why the common event is only an event command. Do you realize that events consist of three main composition?
  • The event itself, consisting the event id and event name
  • The event pages, because an event could have multiple pages. Each page has a graphic and condition.
  • The event command list, where you put the event commands like show text, etc.
Common events only handle the list, not the pages and its conditions. Do you ever think of "isn't it nice if I could make an event command that runs in all maps?". If you ever think of it, then all the event composition (pages, graphics, condition) are irrelevant. What you need is only the event command list for it to get executed, not the graphics. That is why the term "common event" and not "event template". The "common event" does not need a complex condition. All you need to do is to flip the switch ON and OFF to trigger the parallel/autorun common events in all maps.

Perhaps the future event might have an "event template". However, that will add more complexity. Do note that adding the complexity one by one eventually will make it less accessible to people. And thus, as you did, people might be questioning why we have two events, an event template, and a common event. Just by trying to understand it probably hard for some people. So, for now, you have to deliberately put that functionality yourself by using the event clone plugin because you know you need it. Others probably don't need it and it is easier to understand and to control just by creating the event manually.

--------
Now, go ask the other things. I probably can try to explain why they decided to go that way.
 
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Andar

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additionally (about the common events):
Those common events not only were there to be called command lists from other events, but they are also to be called from skills to allow special effect calculations. But a full event with on-map-properties would not be needed on the battlescreen where most skills are to be used.

And in case of general checks (parallel process common event) you won't need sprites and similar either...
 

TheSlyder

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I totally forgot about the item-usage. RPG Maker is founded on ease-of-use, so I can get why they might let complex utility take a backseat to user-friendliness.
 

glaphen

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The real answer is laziness and greed, you can give excuses all you want about mobile compatibility and "ease of use" even though more potential options doesn't really make it harder, but they had the power to make their own official editor plugins and didn't. 245 threads in editor improvement board, 13 approved, even out of those only 7 were actually done and only same early time region really, over half of those being bug fixes and I don't think the icon set thing was ever added even though it said they were, so they added Ctrl+mouse wheel to control zoom and keep level button on class change?
 

Shaz

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lol! You release a game, have it played by a few thousand people, ask them what they think would make it better, then explain why you can't/won't incorporate all their requests. Also note that the editor improvement board is not an invitation from the creators of the engine, it's a "what would you like to see? If we agree we'll suggest it and see what they say" and there is no promise that any of the requests will be accepted.
 

glaphen

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lol! You release a game, have it played by a few thousand people, ask them what they think would make it better, then explain why you can't/won't incorporate all their requests. Also note that the editor improvement board is not an invitation from the creators of the engine, it's a "what would you like to see? If we agree we'll suggest it and see what they say" and there is no promise that any of the requests will be accepted.
I mean I specifically said approved features forum too, you even have a thread there that was apparently "approved" but never done, as I said most of even those are bug fixes and most are still ignored even there.
 

ImaginaryVillain

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Honestly a lot of features really don't need to be added. Those of us who want to go above and beyond simply learn Javascript, or use plugins that already exist. To be completely honest, if you plan to make anything more than the most generic of JRPGs in this... You're pretty much going to have to learn at least some of it.

This engine is really setup so people who don't know anything can get immediate results without needing to program. To that end it's a fantastic stepping stone, goodness knows when I started I barely knew anything about variables. Now I work with PIXI, procedural map generation, and my own plugins. I'd never have gotten there without this as an engine to tinker and learn.

So I'd actually argue against complicating the engine too much with extra stuff. Goodness knows if you're willing to program it yourself, you can basically eliminate any limitation this engine has anyway. But loading all of that onto new people? Probably not a solid way to sell the engine to hopeful newbie game devs.
 

pasunna

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at this point no point to think about why...
now they are make RMMX of other future product
and MV is just the past
to be fair it is normal that they greed and lazy
hardly you will find someone who doesn't like easy money
and me too...
I never like Cd project red work(their game combat and slow story telling is not suit me)
but I respect for their love for their project without much money caring
When you work in a company there are fixed schedule from the business boss man
who don't give a thing on product love quality as long as it sale
they just care on the profit
so dev don't have all the time they want to polish the program

and...other thing is... game engine dev is a job
not everyone love their job
I never love what I learn from university
but I need to keep the paycheck
so I still work with that job...that I hate

so... there are like a ton of problem why Mv engine is what it is
and it will never got more improvement after 5 years release
be glad that it had the strong community
there are kind people around the world love it
and still donate their time to shared plugin and resource to others
 

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