Asking for opinion/advice

[Einreicht]

Hi all, my 1st post ever here (hopefully the mods approve it). Started using VX Ace Lite around a week ago, so pretty much a newbie. I have been toying around with the events and somehow got the hang of it, outside overcomplex and script dependent events. Now trying to make real project and hopefully wont abandon it (due to works or whatsoever).

I haven't figured out much about plot and story, aside from the party trying to conquer a tower dungeon in a dungeon crawling style. What I want to ask for some opinions are:

• Is a 100 floors dungeon with some bosses inbetween sounds appealing for players? Aside for the trouble of designing all of them by myself.
• You're either forced to clear it for a 'true ending', or just farm and grind enough to get normal ending plots.
• Going through all those floors with standard RM battle system might be tedious, but I can't figure out how to make it fun and less tedious yet.
• Level up system is replaced by some stat point distribution system, like paying it off or by other means. The same applied for skills.
• Golds are only gained from selling loots and quests.
• Main and side quests.

Pretty much that for now, initially wanted to add some other things like crating and weapon smithing, but I find it too much for my current skill. I know that for a newbie and first project, it's an overkill project, but somehow wanted to try it. So, many advices and opinions are welcomed. Thanks in advance.

PS: no game sample yet

 

[Warpmind]

A 100 floor dungeon is... ambitious. Even for a veteran.

I recommend you start with a trial project of, say, 7-10 floors; no more, just to familiarize yourself with the engine peculiarities on which you'll rely, and to snoop around for the scripts you'll need.

I might play a game with a 100 floor dungeon, but not if it looked too much like a "first".

 

[Kes]

I'd echo every word that Warpmind said, and would add that the Lite version you are using only allows 20 maps, with a maximum of 10 events per map, and no external scripts to make your battles other than default, so a 100 floor dungeon is out of the question.

I'd use the Lite version to get the hang of the engine and learn the basics of eventing, mapping and so on.  Then get the full version.

 

[optimum45]

Lufia II - The Rise of the Sinistrals  (Super Nintendo) had a 100 Floor Bonus Dungeon.  It's design is worth looking into for ideas.  The game itself is also an amazing masterpiece, worthy of study.

As a writer, and a believer in "You Can, You Will", the best advice I can give you is to plan as much of it as you can before you start building it up.  If you believe you can do it, you will.  And if you do, people will play it.  ^_^

 

[Einreicht]

Ahaha, same reaction when I told the 100 floors dungeon to my friends. Yes, I pretty aware myself that its very outrageous for a beginner. But, putting aside that I'm a beginner, how is my game concepts overall? Are those viable to be implemented?

 

[Kes]

.  If you believe you can do it, you will. 

Not using Lite you won't.

EDIT

To spell that out a bit more

100 floors with a limit of 20 maps, means 5 floors per map.

Limit of 10 events per map, means 2 events per floor.

1 event per floor is needed to transfer, leaving one event per floor for everything else.

No external scripts, so everything default, except what you can mod in the default scripts.  But for battles, etc., you need external scripts to do very much.

 

[CrazyCrab]

I'm with ksjp17 on that one, you won't make it with lite. If you're serious about the project I'd strongly recommend getting the full version, I've been using it for a year now and I've been enjoying my time with it. If you cannot afford it at the full price I'd recommend looking at the steam forums, when I missed the sale I managed to get it there... not for 5 euros or anything, but still, I got quite a decent cut.

Anyway, OT now.

Reminds me a lot of SAO, but since that is a game I don't see why your wouldn't work as one Although I think that ''100 dungeons'' is too much. Just make it 100 maps, that's a lot anyway, as in one dungeon per map. And please don't make them all use a different tileset, you'll never finish it if you try to do that.

Now, when it comes to breaking the usual RM battles, what about maps with no fighting at all? Some of them could be just puzzle maps, heck there could even be a city somewhere, the possibilities are endless.

 

[Mako Star]

haha yeah, CrazyCrab...Sounds like someone has been watching SAO lol

I'd play it. But I think something like a crafting system, an interesting take on leveling up or skilling up, or an extensive loot system would be needed to keep each floor feeling fresh. A companion system so you can change out your party members would be great too. Lots of hidden rooms and some puzzles. Would be pretty interesting to play. Non-RTP graphics would definitely be needed. A theme for every floor, of course.

But yeah, mostly agree with the others. Won't be able to be done with Lite!

 

[Einreicht]

Well, I won't deny it that the 100 floors idea came from SAO, inspired after looking at a game that had a freaking big tower in the middle of a city.

For the Lite version, I'm planning to buy a full version whenever steam put a sale on it. Or grab one here or the Japanese one if I'm intended to go 100% dedicate my time for it (and maybe going commercial, but that's another story).

 

[EliteZeon]

I remember playing a GBA game that revolved around clearing a 100 floor dungeon... I'm sure it was Summon Night: Swordcraft Story.

Its been a couple of years, but I think it had a leveling up system completely based on crafting. As the floors progressed, monsters dropped better crafting materials for better weapons and armor... then I think your summon actually leveled up or something also... eh..

In terms of story I think the pacing was split into chapters. Each chapter made the characters go through about 10-15 floors of the dungeon, then head back to town and such, have plot happen, etc.

I don't think the game was too long, but if you have this 100 floor dungeon, be sure to make it so it paces well.

 

[Rhaeami]

"100 Floor Dungeons" are a classic trope of the genre, and have appeared in such games as Dark Cloud, Final Fantasy XI & XII, Persona 3 (not sure if that one had 100), and many others.  It's important to note that in its purest form it tends to be used as an optional post-game dungeon, and for good reason - these games tend to use randomly-generated dungeon layouts, and making "100 floors" of it is an easy way to inflate the game's longevity, since all the developer has to do is chain together a bunch of random rooms with a boss every few floors.  In other words, nobody makes 100 floors of custom-made dungeoning!

If you're making it from scratch, there's really no benefit (to the player, or the fun of the game) to making it 100 floors long, if it's the only thing that the game revolves around.  Taking Final Fantasy XII as an example, which has one of the few 100-floor dungeons that players are forced to crawl through, that game referenced the trope without using the conventions.  Each "floor" simply referred to vertical height, so taking a long stairway could get you several floors at once, and a given "room" might span four or five floors easily.  Even then, that particular level of the game (the Pharos at Ridorana) was pretty widely criticized as being long and tedious.  Tackling 100 floors, even just as an idea, tends to turn away a lot of people, and I have several personal friends who literally quit the game as soon as they reached 'the 100 floor tower'.

My advice is to focus on major story events, puzzles, and enemy encounters that you'd like to have in the game, stick them together, and not worry about making it 100 floors exactly.  The length of the dungeon isn't really a selling point unless people really love the battle system.  That's another reason why these things are usually used as post-game dungeons; by that point, you know the player is already invested, so you can throw challenges like that at them.  For a new player, though, it's actually likely to scare them off when they're still at floor 0 and learning the game.

 

[Einreicht]

Initially planned each floor to be only 34x34 tiles, or 50x50 at most, to make it less tedious and hassle to design. But come to think of it, its kinda pointless for having such a small map for a dungeon. Maybe I'll reconsider it as I build the story.

 

[bgillisp]

I've always wondered why does it seem everyone wants a 100 floor dungeon though? I've played two games in the past that were dungeon crawlers, and neither were close to 100 floors. In fact, if they had been 100 floors, I think everyone would have quit in disgust.

Look up the EO games. Most of them have a 30 level dungeon (at least EO 2 was, EO3 was 24 I believe). Both were long enough and took the average player weeks to figure out and beat, and only had 30 levels.

Another example: Wizardry, Tale of the forsaken land (PS2). That game had only 11 levels, as that is all the story needed. By sticking to only 11 levels though, they were able to make most of the levels unique and stand out too.

 

[Einreicht]

For my concept, as I mentioned in the first post, I don't have any real story and plot yet, so I decided to slap in an SAO tower in it. I figured out maybe I could put in some (maybe) awesome stories in those floors. If I only could make a decent or short story, I'll cut down the floors or make an entirely new dungeoning concept.

 

[bgillisp]

My advice would be then to do one of the two:

1: Make the story first. That way you know what it is you wish to tell, and then know how many floors you need. You might learn you only need 8 - 12 levels, with each level of the dungeon being really large (think Ultima Underworld 1 large) and interconnected. Probably could get an interesting 5 - 10 hour game out of that easily.

2: Decide that you plan to just have the player crawl through dungeons, with a minimal story (Etrian Odyssey did this, you had a goal to explore and find this, then had to power up enough to survive the challenges).

Maybe check out one or both of those games to see how they pulled it off?

 

[Julien Brightside]

Is the name of the game "Stairmaster"?

 

[arekpowalan]

Is a 100 floors dungeon with some bosses inbetween sounds appealing for players? Aside for the trouble of designing all of them by myself.

I think 100 floors and irrelevent bosses are a bit of an overkiil. 'The Tower of Druaga' has only 60 floors while 'Final Fantasy IV: Years After' totally botches the plots, characters, and most importantly paces for trying to exceed that number. You need to be smarter than putting random bosses, characters skits, and teleporter tiles in this sort of things to make it work.

You're either forced to clear it for a 'true ending', or just farm and grind enough to get normal ending plots.

I think it's up to you, really. Be reminded, however, going through a whole dungeon takes a lot of time, and player may get frustrated if they suddenly get a bad ending. If you want people to aim for the best ending, besure to forwarn the players what they need to do to get it, like "you must beat the dungeon on 50 days" or some hints that subtlely notify the player if something go wrong and they won't get the best ending.

Going through all those floors with standard RM battle system might be tedious, but I can't figure out how to make it fun and less tedious yet.

You can try having different types of enemies on different floors that require different stretagies and party planning to go through. Also try to make each significant portion of the dungeon look different. Different map environments and themed backdrops can help setting up different atmosphere, enemy types, and puzzles. For examples: Floor 20-30 will be water themed, filled with mermaid, fish, and submarine enemies and main enemy that is related to characater A, while floor 30-40 will be fire themed with salmanders and fire titians as the nemies, etc.

You can also set specific goals and challenge each portion provide. you may try forcing different party members within specific floors, or provide special update packages for the players once they reach specific area.

...side quests.

Whatever you do, don't design sidequests in the way that the players have to repeatly backtrack into the specific floors of the dungeon. Being forced to visit the same monster-filled areas multiple times for trivial jobs, especially when the party will rapidly outpowering the enemies with each journey passed, will make grinding very boring or/and annoying.

----------

SAO tower

Sword Art Online's Aincrad is actually a pseudo-unique setting where each floor will feature towns and sub dungeons that the players have to go through. Using such format is pretty much indifferent to designing typical JRPG at the core, with the traditional world maps being replaced by multiple accessible layers. If you choose to go SAO style, I suggest you focus on the story and characters first.

 

[Wavelength]

My advice would be to figure out what about your gameplay will be fun and appealing to the player, and then design all of the other mechanics around that.  BoF 4 (Dragon Quarter) and Azure Dreams figured out good ways to make the "long dungeon slog" into something relatively exciting, interesting, and meaningful - but most games are better off without it.