ATB and Timed Hits

[Eschaton]

There seems to be a consensus here that the above gameplay elements...kinda suck.

Why? Can I get somebody's bad experience with these?

 

[Andar]

Why do you think that those elements "kinda suck"? I don't remember ever reading about such a consensus.


Some concepts are used less often because they require more work to be correctly setup and balanced, but that has nothing to do with how they're looked at, only how many people are willing to put in the work and how many are looking for the easy way.

 

[Susan]

I personally don't really like timed hits but it's only because I have really bad timing and reflexes, not because that gameplay element is terrible at all.

I do love ATB along the lines of Parasite Eve and Legend of Mana (PSX). If it is too fast and furious, then I will have to pass for the same reason as I have just stated.

Sometimes CTB is the way to go when you want players to take their time to plan their strategy, or even soak in the music and atmosphere, kind of like the SMT series especially Persona 3 & 4.

It's just a matter of what kind of game you want to create and what type of audience you want to reach.

 

[Kes]

I may not have identified what you are referring to correctly, but if I have, then for me it sucks because it requires really good reflexes, and mine are mediocre.  And that will be true for a lot of players.  

 

[Oddball]

I don't know about everyone else, but I don't think ATB sucks. I'm using a modified ATB that allows for more strategy. It's simply another resource. Almost any resource can "suck" when used incorrectly, but when used correctly or when combined with the right game elements, it can really shine. I'm sure timed hits can be used to enhance gameplay somehow... maybe if the person had built up tension before a boss and made the player really hate the boss and emerced them into taking the boss down. and the boss throws timed hits on top of that where you have to hit the action button at the right time or they do more damage or something. The player might want to beat the boss even more because of how hard it is to beat the boss

Sometimes CTB is the way to go when you want players to take their time to plan their strategy, or even soak in the music and atmosphere, kind of like the SMT series especially Persona 3 & 4.

what is CTB

 

[Susan]

Classic Turn Based - where every character and monster acts only once per turn. Once everyone has completed their actions (usually based on speed), that turn ends. Kind of like the default VX Ace battle system.

 

[Andar]

Classic Turn Based - where every character and monster acts only once per turn. Once everyone has completed their actions (usually based on speed), that turn ends. Kind of like the default VX Ace battle system.

Wrong - it has the same abbreviation, but it wouldn't be used around here for something that is default.
In the RM community, it usually stands for Charge Turn/Charge Time Battle - the actor's action bar is charged over time, but contrary to ATB the battle is frozen when the charge is full, waiting for the player to select the action.


The key is that the actors usually charge with different speed, and the skills often require different charge numbers, resulting in different numbers of actions in the same time.


Examples are


http://yamiworld.wordpress.com/rgss3/battle-scripts/yeas-add-on/pctb/


or


http://cobbtocs.co.uk/wp/?p=64


(the last one is a script that can be used for both CTB and ATB as a lot of the functions and mathematics behind ATB and CTB are similiar)

 

[Kes]

I don't know about everyone else, but I don't think ATB sucks.

I may be wrong, but I think it is not so much ATB, but ATB plus timed hits which is what the op was asking about.

 

[Eschaton]

Little of column A, little of column B...

 

[Maliki79]

Timed hits are meh.  

I can do without em personally.  

I have no issues with ATB systems as long as time stops while you make choices.

The ones that give you no break kinda kill the strategic flair a bit to me.

And BTW I just recently started playing Legend of Dragoon again.

Timed hits in that are meh, too.



("Volcano!!!")

 

[Eschaton]

I have no issues with ATB systems as long as time stops while you make choices.

The ones that give you no break kinda kill the strategic flair a bit to me.

Then what's the point?

 

[Maliki79]

I find it makes for a faster paced system overall.  And you can have agility and action speeds have more of a dynamic impact.

That's why I use it, anyway.

 

[Eschaton]

I think RTB can work, but cannot be reconciled with deep menu navigation. Skills and menus would have to be streamlined. Pausing defeats the purpose, I think.

As for timed hits, I'd like to make use of a script that could reduce frame rate based on actor parameters or skills, allowing the player a larger margin of error when doing the times button press.

 

[Maliki79]

I'm sure any Timed Hits script would be able to make those kinds of adjustments.

 

[TheoAllen]

Well, ATB and Timed Hit are bad combination if used in more than one party members. I personally dislike the ATB, Because you will never know where and when enemy attack your party member. It's kinda hard to observe. But if it's pausable ATB, I'm fine. I have no problem with timed-hit, especially if the game itself designed to be a action / semi-action than planning the strategy. In order to win, you only simply to have good reflexes. Not mixed up with any other features.

 

[Eschaton]

I envision a game that can be won by mashing "Attack" and less-than-judicious use of Skills on the easiest difficulty, but a game that requires both reflexes and quick-application of tactics and strategy in real time on the hardest difficulty. I want it to be fun for RPG-ers and action-ers alike.

 

[richter_h]

Combo of ATB and Timed-hit is a no-no, especially if the ATB keeps running WHILE the Timed-Hit window is popping out.

Take an example of a game that uses Timed-Hit as main feature. Mario&Luigi series feature the Timed-Hit along with individualistic turn counter instead of ATB. Players can't predict the next turn that fast and not all players have good reflexes, so they deserve a time to thinking, predicting next actions, and readying themselves before facing the Timed-Hit.

If ATB is used, it's a customary to set the ATB stopped when player is giving command to an active actor and when one of actors/enemies is performing an action. That way, the ATB won't mess the Timed-Hit's 'reflex input'.

Last time I meddle with a game project with ATB+Timed-Hit installed, I realized that the design is kinda bad and I should put more works to make it playable even in slight amount. The Timed-Hit with active ATB was more punishing than rewarding.

P.S.: Currently, and AFAIK, the best system that complies well with Timed-Hit is the Action Cost Card system (ACC). It emulates the individual turn system and has better approach than ATB. Your preferences shall be different with mine, though.

 

[bgillisp]

If you decide to have an ATB system that runs while decisions are made, you *must* put a pause button in the game. Those of us that are older (like myself) do not know when we will be interrupted sometimes, and without a pause your game automatically becomes a no play as one unexpected door knock or family interruption and we lose our battle as we cannot pause it.

 

[Susan]

@Andar :

Thanks for the correction. I was thinking I shouldn't have used abbreviations in the first place.

 

[Oddball]

 I want it to be fun for RPG-ers and action-ers alike.

Like Super Mario RPG?