Auto-battle: Good feature or cop out?

Traveling Bard

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Have you ever played a game where there was an auto-battle feature? Breath of Fire 1 had this and it was good to have due to the ridiculous amount of encounters that you had throughout this game; however, it sort of felt like a cop out. I mean, instead of having the need for auto-battle to get you through the grind that is...grinding..why not have less encounters that yield more experience & gold and that are more engaging/challenging when they do pop up? 

What is your take on the auto-battle feature, forum? Do you feel it's a cop out or a necessary feature? Explain :)

edit: Ancient Magic for SNES cries out for an auto-battle feature. Long drawn out battles even with the weakest of monsters mixed with the high encounter rate makes me want to cringe every time I get into a battle. Battles should be fun, not make the player let out a sigh of disgust...
 
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Shion Kreth

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I feel the same as you, if you want to computer to fight the battle for you it's not very engaging. :p That said at times you don't really want to put in every command, so I like what white giant studios did with last dream and had it so you could set various macros which would save a command for each party member; best of both worlds for when more precision isn't necessary. (I've no idea if that's a public or proprietary script though)
 

Clord

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Well I tried some MMORPG game on Newsground that basically almost played itself unless you wanted to take a control.


It was amusing, just a several clicks and quests are completed for you and more but it kind of ended up being a dialogue simulator.
 
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EternalShadow

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Bit of a cop-out, defeats the entire purpose of battles in the first place. Maybe implement a quick-time event system where battles are fought automatically depending on your reaction to QTE's? :p
 

Uzuki

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I'm pretty meh for it. On the one hand I'm a control freak so I want to be in control of everything. That's why FFXII is one of my favorite games. It scratches that "I'm in control" itch that irritates me when I see the computer use a fire spell on a fire enemy. That just makes me all kinds of angry. But on the other hand I get why there are auto-battle. Sometimes you have to back trap through areas and the designer didn't have the courtesy to level up or change the enemies so you're level 30 while the woodland creatures are still level 3. That can get tedious, so auto-battle would come in handy there. 

TL;DR

I guess it's all about the situation for me.
 

Kes

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Some autobattles, like Makoinfused's, for example, only use basic attack.  I much prefer that to an autobattle that decides which spell you will have to use, particularly when the spell the autobattle picks for you is way over what you need to use.

A quick melee mechanism like that is useful when you just need a hit or two to finish off the battle and don't want to be bothered selecting attack 4 times because there's no need to use up your precious MP.
 

Eschaton

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Instead of designing a game to necessitate an auto-battle (because combats are boring in this hypothetical game), a designer works to make each encounter interesting.

1.  No random encounters.

2.  Each encounter is designed by hand to be completely different from other encounters.

Quality over quantity.
 

Traveling Bard

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@Uzuki, in the situation where you are level 30 and they are level 3, I would have to think about taking a page from Earthbound and have you autowin that fight. I think something like that would help make the player feel more powerful which is always a plus :)

@ksjp17, yes that's the kind of autobattle I was talking about. BoF 1's autobattle was just strictly standard attacks with no AI casting random spells for you. 

@Eschaton, I've thought about that idea...having a finite amount of battles in a game, make them meaningful, make them rewarding, make them interesting while also remaining challenging, etc. In doing so, you would obviously have less encounters for players to battle in and gain experience from, the issue then becomes what if the user isn't strong enough to beat the game. If they beat every finite opponent in the game but chose to skill themselves a certain way that would be fun to them yet  not strong enough to defeat the final boss...would we as designers make them restart the game to get it right? Most players would probably give up rather than try again, typically. With that said, you would almost already need to have the ability to beat the final boss about mid-game, leaving all the other finite opponents there for cushion. Sorry for the rant lol just sounds like you've explored this thought process before and wanted to hear where you're going with it. 

edit: in keeping with the thread, what I'm bringing up with Eschaton is a possible alternative to designing a game that wouldn't need an auto-battle feature. It feels like there is a sweet spot to be found where a game gives you enough encounters to sate your hunger for progression/growth but not so much that you would prefer a macro/auto battle feature to get through the sheer amount of encounters needed to become strong enough to get through a certain area or defeat a game. 
 
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Sharm

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I like auto battle for the times when I want to grind or go backtracking but I like the fights to be set up in such a way that if you're fighting something at the appropriate level just auto battling will get you killed, or at least into some danger of being killed.


@Eschaton: I've recently played a game like that, it was actually pretty frustrating. The battle system was interesting but I never felt like I was allowed to play with it and explore the different options. I couldn't go "okay, I think I figured this monster out, let me try it again on the next one I find" because that fight was over permanently. The only thing I could do was reload the game and that wasn't something I was willing to do for every monster in the game.
 

kerbonklin

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If anyone's played Bravely Default, I loved their implementation of auto-battles for when i'm grinding the end-game for completion's sake (or when I know I can repeat the same commands to win the fight without dying)  The game's auto-battle you perform for each character is accurately based on each of their previous actions, as long as you have the MP/BP to use those previous commands (otherwise it does a normal attack instead of giving you the wasted turn of "Not enough MP/BP")

Grinding in the game was pretty minimal, even for Hard mode, and Hard mode was challenging enough where you would probably never want to use auto-battle anyways. (until the end of the game to master every job)
 
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Eschaton

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Well, the fact of the matter is, OP appears to advocate Auto-Battle as a way to alleviate the repetitiveness of random battles.

Maybe steps should be taken to keep the game from getting boring.  Why do people still think grinding contributes to the fun of the game rather than making the game boring?  Grinding is a chore and chores shouldn't be in games.
 

Uzuki

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Well, the fact of the matter is, OP appears to advocate Auto-Battle as a way to alleviate the repetitiveness of random battles.

Maybe steps should be taken to keep the game from getting boring.  Why do people still think grinding contributes to the fun of the game rather than making the game boring?  Grinding is a chore and chores shouldn't be in games.
Well it's different for everyone. Just like some people like mayo on their sandwiches and others don't. It's different tastes. Personally I can enjoy a good grind. Gives you a good excuse to explore and see what's going on in the world. Mind you I have played games where you're forced to grind to continue and it can be handled poorly, but for the most part I can usually find a solution to fight the boss without grinding. 
 

Fernyfer775

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Well, the fact of the matter is, OP appears to advocate Auto-Battle as a way to alleviate the repetitiveness of random battles.

Maybe steps should be taken to keep the game from getting boring.  Why do people still think grinding contributes to the fun of the game rather than making the game boring?  Grinding is a chore and chores shouldn't be in games.
That really depends on the player though, I personally like a good grind, and if the battle system if fun, then I tend to do a LOT of grinding. I am also a numbers freak, so I tend to spend a lot of time grinding and being over leveled when I played RPGS. (I'm looking at you Tales Games)
 

C Frost

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I can see the usefulnes of auto-battle in certain situations - no matter how well planned your battle system and enemies are, you may still have SOME tedious, "pointless" battles here and there (and the presence of ANY such battles at all throughout an entire game is not a big deal, honestly. As long as it's not happening often.) I agree that the "everyone just does basic attack until the enemies are dead or you cancel auto-battle" is far preferable to having the computer pick which skills/spells to use. The latter rarely works well - if the fight is worthy of strategy, I want to decide what to do myself; if the fight is easy-peezy and I'm using auto-battle because I just want to zoom past it, then why would I want to waste any MP?

In regards to "grinding" being fun (or not)...

To a degree, I see what Fernyfer and Uzuki are saying. However, without meaning to put words in Eschaton's mouth, I'd think that was he was getting at was "forced" grinding, i.e. "I have been playing normally, I haven't run from many battles, I've done most of the sidequests available to me thus far, and I am WAY underleveled for the next required boss. Through no fault of my own, I must grind to continue the game."

THAT specific kind of scenario is, I feel, one that any game designer should try to avoid if possible. Of course, if your battle system is fun and your game does encourage exploration, it's likely that your players will be battling a LOT (grinding of their own free will, basically, which is what Fernyfer and Uziku are talking about I think). Which is fine... except then, if your game is balanced to avoid the scenario I described above, you can then run the risk of it being too easy for a player to grind too much and OVER level, and all of the required boss fights are a breeze simply because your player decided to explore a lot (which your game encouraged). So it's a bit of a tightrope to walk, really.

For my money, I would find an RPG (in the traditional JRPG or western RPG sense, anyway) where there was literally a finite number of total battles that could be fought to be off-putting. The way I interpreted Eschaton's statement about the solution being making each battle interesting wasn't "limit the number of battles that can be fought", but to make fewer battles, i.e. on a per area basis. Meaning, instead of a dungeon having full random encounters or dozens of touch-encounter critters wandering around that are mostly very difficult to avoid, forcing the player to fight (or at best, run from) dozens of relatively easy, same-y encounters through the course of one dungeon, you have a dungeon with maybe only one dozen or so encounters total, each of which is actually a bit of a challenge and, ideally, most of which are a bit different from one another in terms of type of enemies, etc. BUT, they still all respawn when you leave the dungeon and come back. So you have fewer battles per stretch of game time, with each encounter being more memorable than your average mindless random battle, and the player does not feel inundated with constant encounters. But other than bosses and some special treasure guarding monsters and whatnot, none of those battles would go away permanently after being fought once.

There are other things you can do, too, such as trying to make your battle system and enemies respond to strategy or skill loadout more than pure levels. I acknowledge that this can be quite hard to do, but it's something to shoot for (and is why your battle system, skills, and enemies shouldn't be rushed! They should receive as much care and thoughtful design as any other part of the game, if not more so). I'm reminded of Star Ocean 3, which was a great example of this. Some of the bosses (and regular encounters too, fairly often) in that game were damn hard if you weren't prepared. But, I hardly ever had to just grind out more levels after being beaten by a boss; I'd shuffle around what skills I had equipped and tried to think about how I could use them (i.e., for this one boss fight that was a group of enemies that rapid-fire at you with blasters that do heavy damage and can turn you to stone, which seemed like a massive challenge... until I tried out a skill that knocks the enemy off their feet and discovered that I could knock em all down at once if I used it carefully, and suddenly the battle wasn't nearly as hard).

Lastly, one other system I like is one that gives the player a bit of information about the encounter's nature from the graphic used on the map (obviously this only works for touch encounters, but I advocate for them over full random battles in nearly all situations anyway). i.e. something like, standard enemies are yellow, and will move toward you and initiate battles if you get near them, aggressive enemies are red and will gun for you from farther away the moment you enter the room, green enemies won't move toward you and you must approach and press the action button if you want to fight them at all, etc. Generally, the more aggressive an enemy on the map, the more challenging the fight would be. These would be fewer in number but more interesting, requiring more thought to win. Whereas yellows and greens might be more plentiful, but are easier to avoid (and easier to win). So the player can, to some degree, decide for themselves how many less challenging, "filler" fights they want to engage in.

This could also completely solve the issue of what to do if the player needs to backtrack through an old area. In some cases, you could use the method of leveling up the old enemies, or swapping them out for new ones, so the area becomes a challenge again, but you wouldn't necessarily always want to do this. Sometimes it would be better to let the player just zip through the backtracking portion as quickly as possible. So the encounter info system described above could help with this: if you are a certain number of levels above an enemy encounter, it becomes green automatically. So ALL the enemies in a really old area would be green and would just stay out of your way (but if the player WANTS to run toward em and fight em again for whatever reason, they still can).
 
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Harmill

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Eschaton's two points make me think of Chrono Trigger, and he may have been thinking of Chrono Trigger when he wrote his post. Chrono Trigger doesn't have "random battles" in the traditional sense, and every possible encounter in the game's dungeons are hand crafted and (I think) always contain the same enemies. These battles are mostly triggered by running up to monster sprites in the field, and so you can avoid the battles if you wish so. The enemies respawn in the field when you leave, so there isn't a finite amount of battles you can fight.

I think grinding is only "fun" if the rewards (level ups, class progression, spell mastery, etc) come at a good pace. If I have to spend 4 hours grinding off enemies to gain 1 level, that's boring and I'd prefer not to spend my time that way. If in that same 4 hour grind session, I can gain 5 levels, upgrade four of my spells 2 levels each, and obtain enough gold to buy a whole bunch of stat boosting items, then I'm entertained. I think that's an important distinction when talking about grinding. How frequently are you rewarded during grinding?

To return to the original topic, I'm not a fan of Auto-Battle, though it's not something I really think about. In every game that offers it, I always ignore it to the point that I forget it even exists. The forced Auto-Battle in Dragon Warrior Monsters is annoying, and I'm not sure why they'd remove that amount of control from the Player (I think you could eventually choose individual commands - maybe in the second game or maybe after a certain amount of Familiarity with the monster? I can't remember  :unsure: ).

Tales games allow you to make EVERY party member AI controlled...in which case you're hardly even PLAYING the game. I might try that purely for entertainment/experimental purposes such as "How much longer does it take the AI to defeat these enemies over having myself do it?" or "What cool tricks might the AI reveal to me that I don't use?" but I wouldn't keep that setting on for more than a few fights.
 
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amerk

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Maybe steps should be taken to keep the game from getting boring.  Why do people still think grinding contributes to the fun of the game rather than making the game boring?  Grinding is a chore and chores shouldn't be in games.
Have a visit at the Final Fantasy 3 page on the Steam Store. I felt the game was very grind heavy and difficult when it was originally remade from the NES version and released on DS, especially considering that other remakes from SE are usually dumbed down in their difficulty.

Yet, the game seems to be generating a lot popularity in the discussion about how difficult and grind-heavy the game can be, especially when trying to get job classes up enough to have any worth, and people seem to be cheering just how hard and grind heavy the game actually is.

Of course, a lot of Steam users are all about maxing out a game, getting Level 99 on all characters and job levels, and finding every optional quest.

In fact, it seems to be the people within the RM circle that gripe against grinding the loudest. If anybody comes around this circle and says they like to grind, they're usually criticized for it, and a long heated debate follows, with most people against it. But outside of the RM communities, if somebody belittles a game because of the heavy grind, they're criticized by the masses for their dislike for hard games and scoffed at for their inability to play these games.

I'm not a large fan for grinding myself, but limited amounts is fine, especially if it's to achieve a specific piece of equipment or side quest that is not needed for the game's completion. But it still remains, that people do in fact seem to enjoy long padded out games that require lots of grinding.

The only way I can think why this is the case is because here in the RM side of things, we have access to thousands of free games. For a lot of people, that means we're trying to rush through playing each game to move on to the next, and if we're forced to hang around with a game longer than we want (either through boring mechanics, a lousy story, or forced grinding) we're easily turned off, and we're just out a few hours of time. It's easy to find a fault with a game and move on to the next when you have so many to pick from.

But for people who buy commercial games, they're investing more than a few hours of time. They're investing their hard-earned money as well, and they're looking to max out as much time as possible to get the best value for their game.
 
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Rayhaku808

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It really depends on the rest of game. Do other features support it? If you can give your party skill priorities, tactics like how Dragon Age's tactics system works, and character customization mid-game, it'll be satisfying to see the results of your influence.
 

hian

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I'm a supporter of auto-battles in any game that has encounters with any kind of repetition what so ever.

That is to say, if you're ever going to be faced with one kind of enemy more than once, if you have a skill/strategy that is going to be used more than once, and so forth - so essentially all games should have a auto-battle feature, if they can.

Why? Because it doesn't subtract from people's ability to not use the auto-battle command if they don't want to use it, and yet it gives everybody who finds that they're tired of fighting, which a lot of people inevitably will, a way top opt out of an activity that may come off as only being a chore at some point..

Case in point, IMO, FF10 has the best non-action battle system of any RPG I've ever played, but that doesn't change the fact that I often find myself no wanting to fight in that game, or wanting to fight to gain EXP, but really wishing I didn't have to, because I'm sick and tired of loading screens, the same mobs, using the same strategies over and over again, etc.

Now, you could find other ways to deal with the issue, like having less encounters, higher exp rewards, more skills etc - except that's not really doable, or meaningful most of the times.

Less encounters immediately and efficiently destroys a large part of the game-play, and could easily back-fire when you consider people who in generally enjoy the battle system and would generally want to fight to some extent.

Higher exp rewards cause balance issues when you consider the length of the game.

Increasing skills/strategy variation further increases balance issues.

Taking that all into account - the easiest way, with least potential issues, to allow players to enjoy a battle-system, character growth, and smooth progress through a story-line, is by giving them a solid auto-battle/battle-skip option, and always allow for continues to avoid cheap death that punish players primarily by forcing them to play through long sections of the game over and over again, when those aren't the portions that the player is struggling with.
 
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Ashton

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I just wanted to add something here. 

Autobattle is only as good as it is smart.

I almsot never use it, mostly from the stigma I felt after using it in EARTHBOUND (the first JRPG I played with an autobattle option) - usually you get *maybe* 1 'revival' item per area and you cant buy them till late in the game, and if your not near a hotel your only options for recovering PP (read "MP") are limited to items (like healing, one per area or so, and it only heals 20mp - which nets you at MOST 4 "spells" usually less) or finding a "magic butterfly" and then chasing it down (again only 20MP, but this time the whole party) and these were not common and not in all areas.

That being said, the autobattle used up MP, MP restoring items, and revival items - in situations where they were NOT needed either (4 enemies who do minor damage that you can take out with physical attacks in a couple rounds - no need to waste your precious MP, or there's one enemy left on the field, who does minor damage, and the computer starts wasting MP or items to heal the party, even though none of them are in danger of dieing).

There were better systems, of course. I dont remember which game (I want to say Star Ocean but I could be wrong) let you set a lot of constraints on autobattle (like "dont use MP" or "only heal with MP" which helped) but the computer still battled in ways I didnt like.

In short, I personally see it as a waste of time to include an autobattle system.
 

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