Balanced 4-Person Party

wonderjosh3000

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I thought this concept would be more common but in my searches here I couldn't find a thread specifically about this. So why not start one?

And, really, I should say that I'm not thinking specifically of a warrior/thief/mage/cleric kind of party, but combinations of stat/skill types! As in one character who deals high damage and is quick, but low def and maybe medium special skills, and another with good support skills but lower attack and stuff like that.

Let's just use the typical RPG Maker stats of attack, defense, agility, evasion, magic attack, and magic defense. How would you balance out a 4-person party, with each having proficiency in 2, average in 2, and pretty meh in the last 2? And on top of that, what kind of roles would they play? And even, if it matters, the order in which they'd join whoever was the protagonist?

This is something I haven't quite delved into just yet for my project, but something I'd like to work out. Figured to get a discussion going!
 

Finnuval

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I like an all-round group of people so I'd go something like this :

Healer :

Md +++
Ma +++
Eva ++
Def ++
Att ++
Agi ++

Mage

Ma +++
Md +++
Ev ++
Ag ++
Att +
Def +

Attacker :

Att +++
Eva +++
Def ++
Agi ++
Md +
Ma +

Tank :

Def +++
Att +++
Md ++
Ag ++
Ev +
Ma +

Could just be me though and what do I know ;)
 

bgillisp

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Well I did it by deciding what stat I wanted to consider poor, low, average, good and great for starting out the game (I used 15/18/20/23/25), and I also did the same for level 99 (It was 60/70/80/90/100 there). Then I set up my classes as follows:

1: Poor
2: Low
3: Average
4: Good
5: Great

And gave every class 18 points to distribute between the attributes for new characters. What they ended up with was what I used to set starting and ending stats.

Though I did also consider HP and MP in this as well, same idea. So that made it 25 points in the end.

Also if a class got a really powerful ability it cost them a point. So if you have a class with +20% EVA or something like that, they lose 1 point and have 24 left. Classes with no special abilities had all 25 points to distribute though.

To give an example, I'll state my Warrior class. They got the following points for starting out:
HP: 5
MP: 1
ATK: 5
DEF: 4
MAT: 1
MDF: 3
AGI: 3
LUK: 3

This translates into a starting stat of the following, at level 1
HP: 510
MP: 41
ATK: 25
DEF: 23
MAT: 15
MDF: 20
AGI: 20
LUK: 20

Doing it this way helped prevent any classes from becoming too OP in the end, and seems to have balanced out my 4 character party as well.

Edit: I also did allow for one stat to be given a 0 and one given a 6 if desired. A 0 in ATK/DEF/MAT/MDF/AGI/LUK meant you started at 10. 0's are not given for HP or MP, but HP and MP can get a 6. For example, my Protector class has a 6 in HP and is the only class that can get to 9999 HP.
 
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Neo_Kum0rius_6000

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I thought this concept would be more common but in my searches here I couldn't find a thread specifically about this. So why not start one?

And, really, I should say that I'm not thinking specifically of a warrior/thief/mage/cleric kind of party, but combinations of stat/skill types! As in one character who deals high damage and is quick, but low def and maybe medium special skills, and another with good support skills but lower attack and stuff like that.

Let's just use the typical RPG Maker stats of attack, defense, agility, evasion, magic attack, and magic defense. How would you balance out a 4-person party, with each having proficiency in 2, average in 2, and pretty meh in the last 2? And on top of that, what kind of roles would they play? And even, if it matters, the order in which they'd join whoever was the protagonist?

This is something I haven't quite delved into just yet for my project, but something I'd like to work out. Figured to get a discussion going!
I usually do these classes but I only do 3 not 4.
I do an attack based character.
And a defense based character.
Then the final one is a mix of the two.
 

Aoi Ninami

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If you want to balance characters by each being good in 2 stats, neutral in 2 and poor in 2, it's important to make sure that all the stats are actually doing something. With default RPG Maker stats, LUK does next to nothing (0.1% extra chance of inflicting status) so the character with LUK as a dump stat is a lot more effective than the character missing out on ATK. Also, characters tend to be physical or magical attackers but not both, so one out of ATK and MAT won't matter unless that stat does something else as well; DEF and MDF both matter less than the primary attack stat because they each defend against only half of incoming attacks. AGI can be useless or the most important of all, depending on your battle system.

Like the others, I'll share the system I used. I have six characters, so I gave them ranks of 1 to 6 in the six stats, each character having one of each rating and no two characters having the same rating in the same stat (i.e. a Latin square). I decided that rank 3 always equalled a stat of 10, and the difference between ranks would be 2 points for ATK, DEF, MAT and MDF, and 1 point for AGI and LUK. (In my game, LUK (renamed Spirit) affects the potency of incoming heals, poison and regen, so it could be considered roughly equally important to the other stats.)

For example: my protagonist's ranks are 4 in ATK, 3 in DEF, 6 in MAT, 1 in MDF, 5 in AGI and 2 in LUK. This translates into actual stat values of, respectively, 12, 10, 16, 6, 12 and 9. She is a fire mage, so she gets high MAT, but I wanted ATK to be high as well so the player has the choice of developing her as more of a mage or more of a physical attacker. She needs high AGI because she's on her own for a while, so it would be unfair if she didn't get enough turns. The other three are her weak stats, in a somewhat arbitrary order.

For HP, I just summed the ATK and DEF ranks, added 1 and multiplied by 4; e.g. Erika gets (4 + 3 + 1) x 4 = 32 HP (at Level 1). MP is calculated the same way from the MAT and MDF ranks.
 

NinjaKittyProductions

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I tend to build classes with utility in mind. I also only use 4 Stats for most of my projects: ATK, DEF, AGI, and LUK (however, they tend to have names like Power, Resilience, etc.)
Using a A, B, C, D, approach. A being strongest and D being weakest.
Champion (Tank/Frontline Damage)
ATK - B
DEF - A
AGI - D
LUK - C
Typically has skills that taunt enemies and punishes those enemies if they attack other party members.

Witch/Warlock/Magus (Debuffer, Backline Damage)
ATK - C
DEF - D
AGI - B
LUK - A
In lieu of a normal caster, they have debilitating effects that affect groups of enemies. Lowering the enemies battle prowess.

Shaman/Ritualist,War Priest (Frontline Healer/Buff)
ATK - D
DEF - C
AGI - B
LUK - A
While not as sturdy as a champion and unable to dish out the damage of a caster, makes up for it with party-wide buffs, moderate healing, and a small disenchant.

Swashbuckler/Rogue/Trickster (Backline Damage [Melee/Ranged])
ATK - C
DEF - D
AGI - A
LUK - B
Fast and has weaker normal attacks. However, their skills deal quite a bit of damage especially if the enemy is under a negative effect(a debuff)

I know this is a slight deviation from your original question though, but not everyone uses all 6-8 stats. Some will use more or even less.
 

TheoAllen

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Except if I'm going to make a fully customized party member, I prefer to balance my party by going around "everyone is damage dealer with an extra role". Everyone has a high base attack stats but varied in other aspects.

Character 1: Damage dealer, but can also tank damage
Character 2: Damage dealer, but can also heal
Character 3: Damage dealer, but can also debuff
Character 4: Damage dealer, but can also buff

If anything like I want to have some variation. Maybe I'd make character 1 has a good and bad matchup against certain enemies or situation.
 

wonderjosh3000

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Oh man, all you guys have of great strategies.

@Aoi Ninami I tend to forget that mathing the stats out in such a way is a rock solid approach! So then, seeing those numbers, you're running a low numbers project? Or was that basically an example? I'm wanting to have a low numbers game, ie. maxing out HP at 999, MP at 99, and the highest a stat would go would be 255. Kind of like Crono Trigger I guess. But I've read some posts saying low numbers don't work well in RMMV?

@NinjaKittyProductions Yeah focusing on 4 stats only came across my mind at one point! I'm thinking I might go that route as well since my project wont be too complex, as far stats go. I think. We'll see, haha.
 

Seirein

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Stats aren't the only thing that matters. What about skills? Equipment options? How valuable is each stat -- is one worth more per-point than others? All of these things factor into balancing party members.
 

bgillisp

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@Seirein is correct. My system worked for me as I balanced my other numbers around it, and I also changed the LUK formula so that 1 point in LUK caused a bigger increase in status ailment applications than the default. The default is like 0.001% or something like that, I changed it to base chance * (1.014) ^ (attacker's luck - defender's luck). This meant that about every 50 points you raise your luck you double the chance of inflicting a status ailment. Now with my curve, that takes most of the game before equipment, so equipment adds some to luck as well to increase that even more. In fact one of my weapons adds to LUK, starting at 1 point at lowest rank and increasing from there.

So yes you will have to also balance your equipment around it and your damage formula. I used a division based formula which meant that a few points of DEF meant more. But I myself started with the stats then balanced the rest around that. Others may want to take another approach.
 
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Fernyfer775

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I went the route that TheoAllen did by making all of the characters in my game a "damage dealer" but with a 2nd specialization to make them unique. Mind you, my party is a 5-man party, but in essence, I tried to make each character fulfill an important role and bring their own tools to the table.

Luna - The Huntress
  • Damage dealer
  • Debuffs Attack Power and Agility
  • High Critical damage multipliers makes her the premier "critical damage" character
  • Also has supportive buffs like her Rations ability which heals a small amount of Hp, Mp, and Tp to the whole party by consuming items.
Damien - The White Mage
  • Damage dealt is converted into healing for the whole party, so, in essence, his healing is dependent on the damage he deals.
  • Provides absorption shields, debuff purging, heal over times, and a medley of party-wide buffs as well (mp cost reduction, TP charge rate, damage boosts, etc)
Trish - The Elemental Mage
  • Damage-over-time master - her damage over time spells also have extra effects, such as restoring small amounts of Tp or Mp to the party depending on the stance she's in.
  • Can change stances to provide different effects to her spells (such as making them single target or multi-target)
  • Debuffs Magic Attack and Defense
Ryudo - The Warrior
  • Deals burst single and multi-target damage
  • Has a lot of defensive cooldowns that increase MaxHP, Defense, and more of the party.
  • Essentially the unofficial "tank" of the group because he has a very high base HP, allowing him to survive a lot easier than the other party members.
  • His signature debuff is called Body Slam, and it straight up reduces enemy damage by 40% for 1 turn (great for countering boss nukes since it's also an instant use ability)
Minerva - The Black Mage
  • Pure dps class - she doesn't really bring much to the party other than the high damage she deals.
  • She uses HP instead of MP to cast her spells and has a ton of self-buffs to really get her damage to go through the roof.
  • Also provides herself with absorption shields whenever she deals damage to help counter her spells costing HP to use.
When balancing stats, I created each character with a "priority stat" in mind, making my Huntress focus on Agility, the Warrior focus on Attack, the White Magi focus on Spirit (MDEF renamed), and the two other magi focusing on M.Atk. I also repurposed Luck into "POWER" and essentially made it into a stat to show you the overall strength of your character. Every piece of gear you have has a base amount of "Power" in it. I use this number to give the player an idea of where their party is at in terms of strength, and for some bosses, you also get recommended Power levels.
 
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Aoi Ninami

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@Aoi Ninami I tend to forget that mathing the stats out in such a way is a rock solid approach! So then, seeing those numbers, you're running a low numbers project? Or was that basically an example? I'm wanting to have a low numbers game, ie. maxing out HP at 999, MP at 99, and the highest a stat would go would be 255. Kind of like Crono Trigger I guess. But I've read some posts saying low numbers don't work well in RMMV?
Yes, those are the actual numbers from my project. The theoretical maxima for my system are 832 HP, 440 MP, and 212 in other stats -- but that's at Level 99, and I think the highest level attainable may end up being lower -- it's really hard to say at the moment as I've only finished the first dungeon so far.

I have no idea why anyone would say low numbers don't work in RPG Maker (and I'm using VX Ace anyway :p ). It just makes things a bit more granular: a roach attacking Erika for 9 damage average will do exactly 8, 9 or 10, whereas if I scaled things up so the range was 80 to 100, the range would be equivalent but there would be more possible points within the range.
 

wonderjosh3000

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Yes, those are the actual numbers from my project. The theoretical maxima for my system are 832 HP, 440 MP, and 212 in other stats -- but that's at Level 99, and I think the highest level attainable may end up being lower -- it's really hard to say at the moment as I've only finished the first dungeon so far.

I have no idea why anyone would say low numbers don't work in RPG Maker (and I'm using VX Ace anyway :p ). It just makes things a bit more granular: a roach attacking Erika for 9 damage average will do exactly 8, 9 or 10, whereas if I scaled things up so the range was 80 to 100, the range would be equivalent but there would be more possible points within the range.
Awesome. Good to know! I'm a big fan of low numbers, so I'm glad to hear it can work out just fine.

Stats aren't the only thing that matters. What about skills? Equipment options? How valuable is each stat -- is one worth more per-point than others? All of these things factor into balancing party members.
Yeah, for sure! I totally agree. I'm big into having all members be totally unique in their skills and equipment, which can further diversify a team.

I was just trying to quickly figure out a plan for my 4 characters to type in here but I realized that I'm gonna have to really put some time into planning how I want to map my party, haha.
 

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So from a conceptual viewpoint, the process is usually something like this:
  1. Figure out what role you want a character to play in battle. For example, you might decide that a character would be a "Vanguard", protecting their allies from being harmed.
  2. Use that role to create that character's kit of skills. For our Vanguard, their skills might include ways to Substitute (take a hit) for low-health allies who are about to be attacked, attacks or taunts that greatly increase the user's Aggro rating (if the game uses an Aggro system), bonds that redirect part of the damage taken by allies to the Vanguard, team-wide Defense buffs, and so on.
  3. Based on the character's skills, choose which stats will be the most useful. Since you want your Vanguard to take a lot of hits, DEF and MDF will be the most useful stats for them, and would logically be the two "great" stats for this character. AGI might be important too, to use the defensive moves before enemies can attack, and you'd probably want to give the Vanguard at least decent AGI. Other stats like ATK and MAG can be lower.
There's a case to be made for not perfectly aligning the kit of skills with the set of stats (for example, a squishy character with a skill that allows them to Substitute for allies could be a fun, risky way to protect allies in danger), but this is only appropriate for certain styles of combat system, and it requires really good design to not mess up. Generally, it's better to make the stats line up with the skills, since the player will be trying their hardest to boost those "useful" stats for the character anyhow.

As far as balancing different characters that are designed in this vein, all you really have to do is make sure that each stat is exactly as valuable as each other stat. Increasing ATK by 3 points should be just as valuable as increasing AGI by 3 points (for a character who values both ATK and AGI), in terms of improving their shot at winning the battle. This is easier said than done, because by default AGI and LUK are not that useful in RPG Maker's combat, and also because generally characters only need one stat out of ATK or MAG to be effective at offense, whereas they need both DEF and MDF to be effective at defense (meaning that ATK and MAG are twice as valuable as DEF and MDF in many games). But if you get to the point where each stat is approximately as valuable as every other stat, you'll have a very good balance baseline to work from. From there, it's all about making sure that some skills aren't too situationally useful/useless; the skills' cost, cooldowns, or power can be adjusted to compensate.
 

lianderson

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Yeah, low numbers are usually best. They just make the math easier for the player.

Hmmmmmmm, I personally don't do classes. I just let everyone learn and equip everything. That said, I do balance things out via mp/stamina cost. So if a spell is 20 mana, then I'll make sure it's neither better nor worse than all the other 20 mana spells in the game. (there are some exceptions to this, but that would require a longer post)
 

trouble time

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I actually didn't balance my party's stats at all. Iii, the main girl, has a higher attack stat than the rest of the party put together. She's a demigoddess and the other two are just competent mortals so it makes sense her stats are a lot higher. But, I balanced the characters around a different metric, conservation of force and utility.

Iii can't use AOE attacks so you have to make sure you're attacking the right target, because if you have her cleaning up the small fry the big guy'll kill the party, but its complicated by things like lesser enemies tanking for the big guys, or the lesser enemies killing the other members of the party.
 

wonderjosh3000

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So from a conceptual viewpoint, the process is usually something like this:
  1. Figure out what role you want a character to play in battle. For example, you might decide that a character would be a "Vanguard", protecting their allies from being harmed.
  2. Use that role to create that character's kit of skills. For our Vanguard, their skills might include ways to Substitute (take a hit) for low-health allies who are about to be attacked, attacks or taunts that greatly increase the user's Aggro rating (if the game uses an Aggro system), bonds that redirect part of the damage taken by allies to the Vanguard, team-wide Defense buffs, and so on.
  3. Based on the character's skills, choose which stats will be the most useful. Since you want your Vanguard to take a lot of hits, DEF and MDF will be the most useful stats for them, and would logically be the two "great" stats for this character. AGI might be important too, to use the defensive moves before enemies can attack, and you'd probably want to give the Vanguard at least decent AGI. Other stats like ATK and MAG can be lower.
There's a case to be made for not perfectly aligning the kit of skills with the set of stats (for example, a squishy character with a skill that allows them to Substitute for allies could be a fun, risky way to protect allies in danger), but this is only appropriate for certain styles of combat system, and it requires really good design to not mess up. Generally, it's better to make the stats line up with the skills, since the player will be trying their hardest to boost those "useful" stats for the character anyhow.

As far as balancing different characters that are designed in this vein, all you really have to do is make sure that each stat is exactly as valuable as each other stat. Increasing ATK by 3 points should be just as valuable as increasing AGI by 3 points (for a character who values both ATK and AGI), in terms of improving their shot at winning the battle. This is easier said than done, because by default AGI and LUK are not that useful in RPG Maker's combat, and also because generally characters only need one stat out of ATK or MAG to be effective at offense, whereas they need both DEF and MDF to be effective at defense (meaning that ATK and MAG are twice as valuable as DEF and MDF in many games). But if you get to the point where each stat is approximately as valuable as every other stat, you'll have a very good balance baseline to work from. From there, it's all about making sure that some skills aren't too situationally useful/useless; the skills' cost, cooldowns, or power can be adjusted to compensate.
Yeah that's the process I was finding myself working out. Especially if you only have 4 characters, you want them all to be unique and useful (or at least I do), so some can have some crossover skills, like one can have some healing capabilities but not like how your healer is built, or whatever. I personally don't want all my members to be heavy hitters, or at least divide them into 2 physical attackers and 2 magic attackers, and one of each maybe having more support than offensive skills than the other in the same category, and make their stats accordingly.

Yeah, low numbers are usually best. They just make the math easier for the player.

Hmmmmmmm, I personally don't do classes. I just let everyone learn and equip everything. That said, I do balance things out via mp/stamina cost. So if a spell is 20 mana, then I'll make sure it's neither better nor worse than all the other 20 mana spells in the game. (there are some exceptions to this, but that would require a longer post)
Yeah I love the low numbers! And that's a cool take. It makes me think of FF6 a bit where everyone can learn ALL of the magic. I guess their stats do differentiate and they have their own unique skills, but even so. Balancing the mp/stamina is a cool idea too.

I actually didn't balance my party's stats at all. Iii, the main girl, has a higher attack stat than the rest of the party put together. She's a demigoddess and the other two are just competent mortals so it makes sense her stats are a lot higher. But, I balanced the characters around a different metric, conservation of force and utility.

Iii can't use AOE attacks so you have to make sure you're attacking the right target, because if you have her cleaning up the small fry the big guy'll kill the party, but its complicated by things like lesser enemies tanking for the big guys, or the lesser enemies killing the other members of the party.
That's a good way to switch the typical party up! Having a character that really has to be OP because of, really, who/what the character is can be difficult to work into a game and still keep it challenging. So making it that she can only attack one target at a time is a good strategy! Nice!


I was thinking about how to incorporate elemental attributes to skills as well. I don't think I want to cover every element you can think of, and I don't think I even want to have the ones I use to be the traditional fire, earth, water, and wind.

At first I thought it could be cool to have an FF6-style of skill system. Everyone has their own unique skill list and at some point in the story they come across some kind of equippable (sp?) artifacts that will teach you "magic". So everyone can learn all there is that those offer, but still have their own set of personal skills that are valuable.

Then I thought maybe something like Chrono Trigger where each member is assigned an element that most of their skills are based around. And this is where I started thinking of atypical elements like nature (organic?), mechanical/technological, space (cosmic even), and time. So I want a guy, a girl, an alien, and a robot. OR a guy, a girl, an inventor type guy, and an alien. The alien would use space/cosmic, the girl would use nature, the robot/inventor would have the mech/tech skills, so then the main guy would have power over time somehow (would have to figure out a way to apply that story-wise).

Time - Definitely supports/buffs like a haste/slow/stop kind of thing. Could have some kind of aging status effect, too. Some offensive skills.
Space - More offensive skills, like singularity skills, gravity skills, meteor stuff, star stuff. OR I can take it in a sci-fi cosmic way and do like eldritch summonings, but I think that's more on the antagonist side of things for me.
Nature - Healing for sure. And more natural elemental attacks that would induce status effects like "burning" than "fire-damage". Maybe even creature summoning.
Technology - Lasers, projectiles, crazy tech stuff. Might have it work like Edgar in FF6 with needing to have the appropriate "tools" in the inventory. Can have some minor healing skills and some stat stuff. Lasers can induce burning, and so on.

I dunno! These are just thoughts at the moment! I kind of like where they're going though! And I'd adjust the character stats accordingly, too. I guess. Maybe use YanFly's stat extension plugin or something. Game progress wise, I'm just trying to get the menu to work out the way I want it right now haha.
 

mauvebutterfly

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As far as having an OP character, I was musing once over what a Sailor Moon RPG would look like. Basically only Sailor Moon would actually be able to defeat the enemies, and the other scouts would just have to be decoys or cover for her until she decides to actually use her overpowered move and finish the fight.

Considering how much people hate escort quests, an entire game of "wait until the win skill gets off of cooldown" probably wouldn't actually be very fun though. The party balance in Sailor Moon was pretty bad, and probably wouldn't make for a particularly good game. A game using that kind of a combat system might be interesting for one of those month-long development contests though.
 

Irineu

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The attributes of the characters is something that interests me, but I do not see many people giving importance. People often use the "Warrior, Archer, Mage and Rogue" pattern for a common RPG, but I like to vary...

Swordsman:
HP: ++
MP: ++
ATK: ++
DEF: ++
MAT: ++
MDF: ++
SPE: ++
LUK: ++

Gunslinger:
HP: +
MP: +++
ATK: +
DEF: +
MAT: +++
MDF: ++
SPE: +++
LUK: ++

Spearman:
HP: ++
MP: +
ATK: ++
DEF: +++
MAT: +
MDF: +++
SPE: +
LUK: +++

Fighter:
HP: +++
MP:
ATK: ++++
DEF: ++
MAT:
MDF: +
SPE: +++
LUK: ++
 

Poryg

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As a player I have found out that having two attackers and two supports breaks just about any game, throwing the entire game off balance. Way too little amount of games have well balanced gold economy.
 

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reading what makes plugins tick, so you can use other plugins to trigger said plugin... setup up Luna MV to have my own custom ATB Gauges from Yanfly's ATB. cool
It's Easter on Monday. Anybody got any Easter quarantine eggs? It'll also be my birthday, I'll be 31.
Sometimes I feel like I'm using plugins feature the wrong way. But as long as it works tho.
Dusting off RPG Maker MV and seriously working with it since COVID-19 has me with a lot of free time. Have a game project that is coming along steadily and I hope it proceeds past the alpha stage into something good now that I figured MV out.
I've had an account here for four years, but only started posting and working in 2018. I guess I always had the want. Crazy. Guess I'll be seein' y'all.

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