Balancing a System without MP

[CharcoalKidd]

     I'm shopping around for ideas for battle systems, because I'm tired of constant resource management. What do you feel is the general consensus on games that don't use a limited resource like MP for strong attacks? Do you feel it's too easy to just spam powerful attacks and win? Or in order for it to be balanced, do these stronger attacks have to be closer in strength to the normal attack?

     I'm personally fond of the Bravely Default system. It uses conditions to determine whether you can do an attack (i.e. you must use an item 10 times before you can do a dagger special attack), which is a refreshing break from constantly juggling MP. Of course, MP also exists in Bravely Default, but so far I've never run out, because I use it almost solely for buffs and healing. It's a secondary resource, in other words, instead of the whole basis for strong attacks. 

     What are some other good examples of this convention?

 

[LostFonDrive]

Although it's a very different kind of JRPG (action based), Tales of Graces did this very well, and is difficult as hell on higher difficulties.

You have CC (Chain capacity) which is like MP except it recharges after you finish a combo/stop attacking, and the numbers are lower than for MP in games.

For example a "high power" move might use 4 CC which is a lot, and the max CC you can ever get is I think 24 or so. But if you use 24 CC you will have to wait for a good few seconds to recharge it. 

It has a skill tree where in order to progress to your higher power moves, you must build up to it. E.g. 1CC attack -> 2CC attack -> 3CC attack -> 4CC attack. So you have to know exactly how much CC to save up before triggering your combo if you want to do a certain move.

Furthermore, you must use CC for defensive purposes too, so you can't blow it all on offense. Sidestepping and evasion in general uses CC. 

The challenge is in time management, and balancing defense with offense. When you're recharging CC, you're not attacking. When you're attacking, you're limiting your defensive options for AFTER your attack combo. When you use a high power move, you must build up to it, and if it's a spell you need a long cast time to pull it off.

Of course this wouldn't translate that well to an RPG Maker game as there's no "sidestepping" and stuff, but the core principles of this kind of system could work, I'm sure of it.

 

[hiromu656]

An MP-less rpg could be interesting to play. I can't really think of any that I've played myself, but it could add new bits of strategy to combat. You could always go with simple cooldowns or requirements like you mentioned from Bravely Default. Another idea could be playing around with your basic attack; maybe being able to target body parts or giving weapons unique attacks (not just different based on stats). For instance if you use a spear rather than a sword you have access to a range of attacks for that weapon or weapon type. Obviously you can do this even with an MP system but I think it would work even better without.

Sort of brainstorming at this point but a requirement system that isnt a mana cost could be expanded in all sorts of ways. Maybe having a skill only do-able while at full health or on very low health. You can also do a sort of combo system that makes it so you can only do a certain attack after a specific attack was used last turn, or while a certain state is applied.

Not sure I answered any of your questions, but for the most part balancing combat that doesn't have MP really comes down to what you put in its place. Even MP can be exploited, so your mindset to balancing shouldn't change too much. It all comes down to what you do or do not put limits on.

 

[ArcaneEli]

    I put my generic skills and buffs using MP, and they usually have a Cooldown of 1-2turns so your not spamming: Mega-Doom Hyperbolic Time Grenade of Stunning Darkness Inferno, over and over.

    And the Strong skills go on TP, so ya gotta work for them.

    My MP healing items are as common as HP ones. But MP Items cost more, heal less then you would like in battle.

ex: HP potion restores 200HP, ActorA has 150-300HP

MP potion restores 10MP, ActorA has 15-30MP

   But if you didn't have MP, question is what would your skills use as a resource if anything? And what would prevent them from spamming that Resource unless it's HP. If your Resource is HP you better have some dang good healing items and more your normal attacks do good damage if you don't wanna HP drain. Also bosses can't do like 80%max HP to everyone (MAPLESTORY) if skills costs HP.

 

[captainproton]

You gotta have a spam filter. Whether you use MP or buy attacks with gold or use a set of requirements like the Bravely Default special techniques or use PP like in Pokemon, there needs t be something that makes the player put in some effort to get the big whammy attack.

 

[LostFonDrive]

    I put my generic skills and buffs using MP, and they usually have a Cooldown of 1-2turns so your not spamming: Mega-Doom Hyperbolic Time Grenade of Stunning Darkness Inferno, over and over.

    And the Strong skills go on TP, so ya gotta work for them.

    My MP healing items are as common as HP ones. But MP Items cost more, heal less then you would like in battle.

ex: HP potion restores 200HP, ActorA has 150-300HP

MP potion restores 10MP, ActorA has 15-30MP

   But if you didn't have MP, question is what would your skills use as a resource if anything? And what would prevent them from spamming that Resource unless it's HP. If your Resource is HP you better have some dang good healing items and more your normal attacks do good damage if you don't wanna HP drain. Also bosses can't do like 80%max HP to everyone (MAPLESTORY) if skills costs HP.

You don't need to use MP or HP to prevent spam. You just have to take other measures like having the timing be essential, and use cooldowns

 

[Oddball]

How about the dice action system?

basicly, you use a common event when a skill type is selected. It will set a variable randomly. when the variable is set, it will cause the actor to learn and forget skills to limit what they can use. So they will have different skills avalible each turn... (by the way, all these skills are free to use)

Is there a way to check the actors level in a common event? If there is, you can push this idea further by having different skills avalible upon level up

You could (but don't have to) also have each of these skills give you TP, so that you can use other skills were there is a garuntee you'll know what you get that turn. which is what I'm using in this game i'm developing it for

I'm currently working out how to change the hime works script that let's you use common events when you select a skill, so it works on skill types. If you want to use this system, I might be able to help you out if I can figure out enough scripting language to make this change

 

[Fernyfer775]

I implemented a system where you used "combo points" to use abilities rather than MP.

It's a project that I have since given up, but you could find it in my signature: "The Plague"

Essentially you gain TP from regular attacks or combo moves and you pool the points to use heals/spells/finishers/etc.

Although I gave up that project, I will be implementing that sort of battle system into my new game after I finish Demon Hunter.

Feel free to test it out and if you were interested in using it, I can give you the details on how I set it up.

 

[Wavelength]

LostFon explained Tales of Graces' CC system which is a very good example of a successful MP-less system.  The CC Points work a lot like MP but they are used for everything (including spells, basic attacks, dodging, and even certain movement), and they regenerate within just a few seconds while in combat.  So it makes for a very different experience; you don't need to manage MP, but you do need to time your all-ins and your fall-backs during a battle.

League of Legends has Mana for about three-quarters of its characters, but several of its characters use very innovative non-mana resources.  Here are a few examples:

• Energy: Spent like mana, but restores at an extremely high rate, almost like CC above
• Rage: Generated by basic attacks and consumed to activate or enhance the character's abilities
• Heat: Generated by using abilities(!) and makes abilities stronger; however, reaching 100 Heat will silence the character for a short period ("Overheat"); Heat gradually dissipates over time
• Hyper: Generated over time and by basic attacks; reaching 100 Hyper transforms the character for a short time, giving them higher stats and granting access to a completely different set of abilities
• Resourceless: Abilities are limited only by cooldown periods

Many other systems are discussed in the "MP: Design by Default" topic.

 

[CrazyCrab]

If we look at the recent trends in gaming, very few RPG games stick to the MP system outside the traditional JRPGs.

- Neverwinter Online? Action points, charge as you fight.

- GW 1 ? Mana, but it regenerates on its own very quickly. GW 2? Nothing, just cooldowns.

- Skyrim? Yeah, there is mana, but it regenerates really quickly. Sometimes it regenerates faster than you spend it.

- Dark Souls? Spells have charges, run out of them and you're done for.

- Darkest Dungeon? Nothing, no mana, no action points. Some cooldowns. Use whatever you want.

- Divinity: Original Sin? Action points, choose what you want to do each turn.

- DA: Origins? Mana regenerates over time as well as during combat.

- Shadowrun Returns? Cooldowns, Action points, uses resources to cast spells.

I'm sure that there are games that use traditional mana, but as I went though my steam library I could not find anything... even the older games I have like Baldur's Gate use spell charges that you regain when you rest. Anyway, as you can see, traditional mana is really a thing of the past in western / mainstream RPGs and to be honest I can't say I miss it. It's usually just a matter of ''spam strongest skill anyway and use potions that you get from grinding'' and personally I don't remember a single time when I ran out of potions in games like Breath of Fire 2 or other JRPGs.  I don't think that the concept of mana is bad in itself, but I definitely don't like the potion-chugging system. I feel like you can use mana, but have it regenerate over time, so that the player is less restricted in doing what he or she wants.

Alternatively, here are some alternative systems that I've considered / encountered:

- Action points: Characters have a limited amount of AP every turn, use them on actions as you see fit. One powerful attack, multiple small ones, one huge spell, etc.

- TP: Simple as that, just use TP instead of mana. It's a decent system. I'm using it myself with a twist, always start at 5 both you and the enemy. Every action adds 5 unless it's special skills like Meditate which add more but don't do anything. You don't get TP when hit. Charge points over time, then it's up to you what you want to do with them.

- Spell charges: games like Dark Souls and Dungeons and Dragons use it, you get X spells a day, then you have to decide when to use them. No way to restore them outside resting / next day.

- Cooldowns: Just have every skill have a cooldown of X, then you need to choose when and what you want to use. Works better in action RPGs though, as you can't make it X seconds here unless you're using ATB. 

 

[Anastylos]

I think one option has not been mentioned yet: deminishing returns. The more often you use the ability the less efective it is.

A strong meele attack might deal a lot of damage but the enemy becomes more and more resistent to meele damage. So you either have to use it as a finishing move or to switch to spellcasting or ranged else the enemy will get a insane amount of meele resistance. When you want to use a meele stun after you dealt a lot of meele damage it will fail. A poisoning ranged attack will still work.

 

[Oddball]

Personally, I'm turning into a fan of multipule restrictions as costs for skills. Maybe combo cooldowns with TP?

or maybe limited uses with aggro

or maybe you need a certain amount of TP before a attack can be used (it doesn't comsume it, you just need it... actually, how would i implement that) combined with undetectable warmup, plus a cooldown?

or maybe skills generate TP, but it's undesired for it to be high, and you have to do certain actions to cool it down. That combined with maybe MP or a cooldown itself?

or maybe...

nah, i'll stop there. I could rattle off stuff forever it seems like