Balancing items: Do they invalidate magic?

[M.I.A.]

When it comes to balancing Items vs Magic, I like to keep it very simple: Magic can do things Items can/can't but in different ways and with different costs.


Typically, I make it so Items are definitely more useful in the beginning and middle of a game, when Magic is not a powerful or as plentiful. And is later outclassed by Magic. Items can also only be "close, but not quite as great" as Magic.. such as Items cap out DMG output at say.. 1,000 HP damage.. while Magic with the same "skill" can range from 1,500 to 2,000 HP damage.


Magic comes from a refillable source: MP. Items cost actual Gold (or crafted Items), so to me, in this aspect, Magic is better than Items.


However, I usually also include a Chemist class.. and they get 2x efficacy out of Item use, while being unable to learn Magic.


Another difference is that Items are more reliable, whereas Magic can vary. Both are great to take into consideration, but best left to the strategy of the battle you're in.


In my main project, Gold is very, very hard to come by. So stocking up on Items is not as ideal as relying on Magic for the most part. However, the payoff here is that Items are powerful.. and even more powerful when used by a Chemist!!


Oh, one more thing. I like to keep it where Magic and Items have the exact same effect by standard.. except when used by a Chemist. For example, "Anitdote" when used as an Item will remove Poison.. "Cure" when used as a spell will remove Poison, but  if a Chemist uses "Antidote" it will remove two tiers, Poison and Plague (Plague is not removable via Magic).


Does this make sense?.. My meds are kicking in and I might be reduntant/rambling..


Hope this helps!!


-Mia

 

[Ultima01]

Items do NOT invalidate magic when both are used well.  The specifics really depend a lot on the setting, and the plans you have for it.


You don't have to balance it this way, but like Miacuro above me, I'm making items in my setting very powerful, usually with not consuming a full turn, to compensate for the fact that they cost money.  Magic, meanwhile, is much less resource-intensive, allowing you to use it longer, encouraging you to balance between high-yield healing and saving money.  (It says something about how I balanced mages in my setting when the MP-restoring Ethers are the cheapest thing in the shops)


For example, Alchemists in my game's setting are ridiculous as healers, what with being able to use healing items as multitarget for extra effect.  However, relying entirely on one is a good way to go bankrupt, and there's at least two awkward intervals where one tier of Potion isn't doing enough to stay viable, while at the same time the next tier is gratuitous overkill.  As such, you are encouraged to balance between the rather powerful item-based healing and the much more cost-efficient magical healing.


Similarly, Machinists in my setting are pretty darn good dps/debuffer classes, mostly because I deliberately referenced Edgar from Final Fantasy 6 when making their skill pool. (Funny.  FF6 shows up again in the thread)  However, their skillset not only partly depends on their equipment, but, unlike Edgar, entirely relies on Magicite.  Magicite is a material that, once it's buyable, costs a ridiculous fortune to obtain in sufficient bulk to match the longevity of the magical dps and debuffer classes.  This forces you ask which is more important: Magicite for your Machinist, or Equipment for everyone else.


The way I see it, the main balancing factor is cost-effectiveness.  If MP-restoratives are expensive jokes, you may wish to make magic and the classes built around it significantly more powerful to compensate.  If, on the other hand, you're like me, and your setting's items cost a fortune compared to maintaining your mana pool, you should consider making the items and classes built around them powerful instead.


EDIT:


Aaaaand I just realized I may well have performed thread necromancy.  My apologies.  I should know by now to check the dates on the most recent post.

 

[M.I.A.]

@Ultima01, Only by 3 days. But you also added some relevant info.


I agree with your style of balance, and I also respect your "awkward" phase of when some is not enough, and then it's too much. That really helps counterbalance which skills/items to use vs. just using the more powerful versions.


Recently, I had decided for my current project that the Chemist => Alchemist job class will be the only job class that can use Items in battle. Originally, I was going to have all classes capable of using Items while the Chemist can use them to double the effect.. but then I switched foot. Items can still be accessed from the menu screen, but only outside of battle now. This gives the Chemist much more of a functional role while in battle.


In this project, the Chemist is by far and wide the best "Healer" class with the Priest being second.. but that healing comes at a price. Healing Items are not cheap and gold is sparse. To even that out though, the Chemist can !Mix found/dropped/free items and turn them into Healing Items. The Chemist can also use Bombs.. which deal massive DMG to all foes, but again, are not cheap..


So long as you, the developer, balance the magic and items usages, advantages, and disadvantages very well, one will never really out class the other.


-Mia

 

[Tai_MT]

Personally, I find there are some pretty interesting ways to "balance" out the healing mages you're talking about.  The one I enjoy most (and am thus employing in my own game) is simply the removal of "HP Recovery" magic.  Don't get me wrong, I still have magic that cures status ailments or provides shields and such...  But none that really heal (save for a starting skill that only works on the main character and it starts out only healing 10% of HP which is a whopping 2 HP a cast).  I do it this way simply to get my players to spend their hard-earned money and to value their items (popping 20 Potions between battles would be a HUGE deal in my game, and a player would spend their money to do it).


Other methods that I've liked is to simply change up enemy composition.  However, the key to this is to never provide your player with a spell that "cures all status conditions".  What you want to do in this scenario is pair two or three kinds of enemies together that all inflict different states on your characters.  This means, a mage will have to spend 3 turns to cure each individual status affliction... or your characters can pop their consumables to cure it immediately.  You also have to avoid equipment that gives "immunities" to status ailments if you want this to work.


Another that I particularly enjoy is simply not letting your healing mages multi-cast... or if they CAN multi-cast a healing spell, it is LESS useful than if every character simply popped the item.  That way, it becomes a choice to the player.  "Do I heal everyone a moderate amount, or do I use my entire turn to heal everyone a massive amount?"  If it's limited to a single target heal at all times, you can make that heal STRONGER than any curative item you can possess in order to force the same choice.  Do you use several turns to heal everyone individually, or do you use a single turn to pop some healing items to get you to the next recovery spell?


To balance the two, it's usually just a matter of what you're hoping to accomplish with the balance and then designing combat to take advantage of those personal goals of yours.  You need to provide the situations where popping items would be better than casting and vice versa.  You need to decide how much you want players relying on one or the other and how much punishment is necessary when they don't do something correctly (or intelligently).


Heck, you could even use the old "tried and true" method of forcing item use by simply inflicting "Silence" on wizard classes.  You either spend the items for the same effect as the spells you can no longer cast... or spend the item to cure the state so you can cast again next turn.


In all honesty, it just depends on what exactly you're trying to accomplish by balancing.  Depending on your end goal, there may be better or worse ways to solving the problem.

 

[M.I.A.]

I agree with @Tai_MT on a lot of those points. 


Balance is up to the creator to actually sit down and .. well, create. ? Play testing is vital. Be deliberate and intentional, and consider every possible angle that the player is going to be exposed to.


I think you would like the concept of a lot of my mages in my current project in contrast to how I handle healing. There are many forms of healing HP. Some cost MP, some are regen, some are sapped/siphoned from foes.. hell, my Warlock even steals HP from his allies to heal himself. 


Outside of items, there are only 2 plain HP healing spells. The rest have an "unusual" method of healing. 


My Druid has a cumulative heal spell, that targets all allies. It heals 1HP every turn.. but cast it again, and it heals 2HP every turn. The cost for this spell to maintain, how ever, is 10% of MaxMP each round to the Druid to maintain. That percentile also scales. 10% MaxMP on first cast increased to 15% MaxMP with second cast and so on. It's tricky to get it working, but when it does work, it works well. Not very effective in normal battles, but in boss/long battles,  it's the best Healing available!


its fun to get items to serve their own purpose and viable alongside magic spells or skills!! It doesn't have to be one OR the other. ?


-Mia

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

IMHO, items exist for the non-magic classes to be able to act as support and the like and for the mages when they can't cast spells (silenced etc)... Balancing them on the other hand is up to you as the developer of the game.