Balancing Lich/Undead States

[Arithmetician]

I thought it would be cool if it was possible to equip a skill (via Yanfly's plugins + Tricks & Tips) that turns the character undead.  So far I can make the character undead (so healing damages them), and I also have the same state grant immunity to dark damage while causing a weakness to holy damage.  And I've been thinking it should have about 99% resistance to Knockout (preventing almost all instant death attacks while still allowing the character to fall if their HP falls to zero, because then Knockout seems to take effect immediately).  


But is there anything else that should go with a Lich/Undead state to make it powerful but double-edged?  How would you design a skill/state which purposefully makes one of your player characters Undead?

 

[kovak]

I'd preffer to make it closer to Doom state from Final Fantasy series.

• Make actor immortal for a couple of turns but it would get stunned if conditions are met to prevent abuse.
  
• Make actor have a larget pool of HP and then dies in a couple of turns as if it was recently reanimated.
  
• Make actor immortal and then dies in a couple of turns.
  

I'd allow them to be locked down by debuffs easier as long as they do work on undead enemies but also grant them certain immunities considering their bodies are fresher.


I'd also change their parameters to meet something closer to a undead having the freshiness in mind and let them to decay on each turn as well because of magical rigor mortis or use any other excuse you want for this.

 

[Arithmetician]

@kovak  Thank you for the ideas.


If it's a skill that the user activates in battle and one has some sort of progressive state, as in Himework's plugins, some of those could work.  I had considered Immortal state, but that clashed with the idea of taking damage from healing.  I had also considered the idea of a large HP pool, but at the time I was trying to handle Undead as a single passive equipped state, so I couldn't get that to work easily.

 

[kovak]

You could work with elemental immunity instead so there would be a kind of drawback and advantage yet.

 

[Arithmetician]

@kovak  Elemental immunities are a part of it.


I have a state for the Valkyrie called Aerial which nullifies Earth but causes weaknesses to Wind and Ranged.


Part of the Lich status was meant to nullify Darkness but cause weaknesses to Holy (and maybe another element like Fire).   But I also had in mind using it to block instant death effects, and that called for more severe drawbacks than the Valkyrie's Aerial.


Since I have more the idea of a Lich, I'd favor fairly a fairly durable, sentient undead.  I have in mind there being a separate Zombie Status, which covers a lot of the same ground as Lich.   Basically, Zombie status = forces you to attack allies and is hard to get rid of, and with some nasty side effects for the afflicted, along with altered elemental properties that would otherwise be highly desirable in some cases.  Lich status = Zombie status but you retain control of your character.

 

[Milennin]

It could grant a significant power boost, but lose a percentage of HP every turn because being undead means their flesh is rotting away. Or you could make the character impossible to receive any healing while under the effects of being undead.

 

[Arithmetician]

@Milennin  Simply preventing healing is also an elegant approach,  

 

[kovak]

Blocking healing is less harmful indeed. When i think about Liches i think about mages who sacrificed their souls in order to become "Immortal beings" for the sake of following their studies and live longer and longer. Maybe a high magic damage boost is something to be considered but the more advantages the more drawbacks to be even.



After reading all those posts something came to my mind: If you want it as an item instead of being like a skill or turn it into an equipable passive i'd go for something closer to this:

• Immunity to dark = 2 x light damage
  
• Immunity to ice = 2 x fire damage
  
• Reduced pierce and cut damage = 1.5 x blunt damage (in case you want to work with weapons in Fire Emblem style)
  
• Deuble Hp, no hp regeneration, can be healed by spells. Only specific items works as if it's a kind of machine
  
• Double MP, no mp regeneration, can be recovered via spells and items yet.
  
• High magic damage boost = physical damage penalties
  

For minor version i'd tweak it.

 

[Arithmetician]

@kovak  Well, that is stacking on a lot of abilities, but they are ideas to consider.  I suppose Ice does fit along with the cold of Undeath.  And yes, the ability is associated with a mage class (the Hex), meant to be it's highest-level ability, from when they cross the line from simply hobbling the enemy with curses to performing outright necromancy.  The Hex is also designed with more HP than regular mages, since whether it's taking damage from healing or simply not being able to heal, they're going to need it if they use Lich.  


And yes, an equipped passive was the original idea.


Edit: So what I have now for my Lich state is:


Max HP Doubles


Nullifies Dark element, Poison element, Instant KO, Poison status


Weak to Holy (300% damage), Fire (150% damage)


Recovery Effect * 0%


The Max HP doubling may seem useless without the ability to heal up to that, but in making the Valkyrie's Ragnarok move I learned how to directly set the actor's HP, MP, or TP to a specified value in the damage formula.  So I'll include certain items that can be used to automatically set HP to max in a way which technically doesn't count as recovery and will allow the Lich to be healed if necessary.  Or perhaps the Lich can have some doubled-edged skill that will set its HP to max.  But if it's available in item form, it will be expensive and/or rare.

 

[Lord Semaj]

There was an interesting mode in the Guild Wars 2 game for necromancers.  It's basically a lich form and by definition you really can't die.  So while in that state, the necromancer is immune to all damage.  However, the state is temporary, he can't stay in that form too long.  He recharges the state by dealing damage to enemies.


Since you don't want a temporary state, I'm focusing on how he maintains the state.  Dealing damage with his dark powers keeps his state charged up so he can keep using it.  So one possible version of the Undead state is having a character that is immune or virtually immune to damage but suffers a loss of his own life/soul/magic-sustaining-supernaturia every turn.  The only way to stay undead is to continue harvesting souls (Looking for Group; Richard the Warlock).


You can do this by having the Lich have a high percentage of Life Steal and restore his own health on attack.  So killing the Lich can be either a matter of preventing him from dealing damage or just hurting him more than he can lifedrain.  Even if enemies don't attack him, he might still be losing health constantly.  Or maybe as a Lich he's brittle bones and has almost 0 defense so he takes extra damage from enemies and has to continually attack to stay alive.

 

[Arithmetician]

@Lord Semaj Interesting.  So near-immunity to physical/magical damage, a heavy HP loss effect each turn, with the Lich's HP being set to a certain percentage with draining skills (and maybe damage to the enemy being based on the difference)? 


I'll have to consider that as an alternative to what I came up with.   I do have an extra skill on the job that I could get rid of for an HP drain skill like that.


Barring such a skill, the Lich could consume items with the "souls" of enemies or something for healing where conventional healing fails.