Best to know or not know

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

Hello all

One of the teams testers were testing the game a little bit and came up with a interesting question, the battle engine we are using pops up the name of a state when it is applied to an enemy or player, player is fine because you know what state you are putting onto yourself but his interesting question is that: "Since the battle engine pops up a states name, wouldn't it be best to give a description for what the state does?" at 1st we were confused because everyone knows what poison does but then he pointed out the states that appear during phase events etc

So in a developers perspective it is not much of a big deal if just the name of the state pops up because we know what they do, but to a players perspective they won't know what the specific state does which really gets them off guard completely so I want to check with you all.

Would you all prefer a short description the 1st time you see it or would you rather want to keep it in the dark for you all to figure it out?

 

[Kes]

I don't think having the explanation in battle is the place for it.  it could be distracting or (possibly more likely) the player will not remember all the details ("Now, was it AGI up and DEF down, or the other way round?")  However, I do think that players should be told.

I use an animated book in a prominent place so the player can't miss it.  In my current project I have more than usual, so I've split them in 2 - some on the first continent and the rest (with the offer of repeating the earlier batch if the player wants) on the second where new states will appear.

Whatever particular device you use, I think it is helpful if the player can check the details again if they want to.

 

[ShadowLurk]

I prefer Pokemon-style: There is a place in-game that describes the states.

Perhaps a tutorial battle can be made, to explain the game mechanics (including state effects). Having a state description pops from nowhere feels weird.

 

[Mouser]

Ditto the above - TMI during a battle is not good.

That's the sort of stuff for trainers, or volumes on a bookshelf, or any other out of combat means to communicate works much better for. If you can do it in a way that ties in to the lore of the game, so it isn't just an in-game instruction book, so much the better.

 

[Traveling Bard]

Personal opinion, I think it's too much information to pop up during battle. I say just have it proc like normal and let the player discover what it does through the gameplay. Show don't tell You could always have a help section like I believe what was described earlier for specifics on what they do or possibly a npc in-game somewhere that'll give you the specifics if you ask them. I'm not too big a fan of tutorial battles unless your battle system is complicated. Nothing wrong with the player discovering the hard way as long as they have the necessary means to defend themselves from it later. 

I think of Etrian Odyssey's poison state that knocks out a massive chunk of life after one tick. Grant it, it's static and later on doesn't hurt AS much, but I learned real quick that poison is something I don't want on my characters lol

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

Popping the description in battle, IMHO, is a terrible idea... Just give them a manual of sorts, or a kind of a state guide NPC at the start


I prefer the manual since the player can check it again when needed

 

[Revache]

My favourite systems are ones that allow you to access information within the battle itself. I mean, you can have all the information in the world beautifully handwritten with gorgeous pictures printed in a gilded book sitting in the nation's capital but that's not going to help me in the middle of a battle. If I get blinded I want to be able to check what it does. In this game is it a 90% chance to miss? 50%? does it affect magic? Even basic conditions can change between games so it's always nice information to be able to access WHEN you need it instead of turning it into some sort of thinly veiled memory test.

Of course, at the same time have a description pop up every time you get hit with a condition is a pain. Instead, I like it when the information can appear at the press of a button or perhaps a tab in the combat menu like "Status" or "Info". From my experience it's the games that freely share with you all the information you need within the battle itself that afford the greatest amount of strategy. If you are 100% sure that the player will know what the state does you have a lot more strategic freedom and there's no risk of alienating the player with a lack of information. Then, for those who don't need the state info they never have to see it because it is neatly hidden away behind a button press or menu tab.

Though, if your states are SUPER simple (as in no percentages and one effect conditions) and they are VERY limited in number then you can probably get away with not giving the player the freedom of exploring the conditions in combat.

 

[Kyutaru]

Having players be surprised by a state is generally an okay thing.  You weren't expecting it and your character might have no idea what it does unless they experience or witness it for themselves.  The first time a player sees a new state pop up in combat, he deals with it then looks up the state in his guidebook or Help section.  Considering new states should be shown on weak trash mobs leading UP to a boss that uses them, the player will have plenty of time to become accustomed to what the state does and how it impacts his combat abilities.

You can even have NPCs warn players before they encounter certain states, like telling them "I heard snake bites are poisonous!  Be sure to bring plenty of antidotes if you happen to travel through the desert."  Doing this is much better than popping up descriptions in combat and rewards players for exploring the world and speaking with NPCs.  Some games even have states appear that have no real warning, teaching the players through experience.  An example is Countdown or most Final Fantasy games with Bombs in them.  Turn 1 the Bomb uses the "3" skill.  Turn 2 he uses the "2" skill.  These skills tell the player nothing at all, but given the NAME of the creature, smart players can infer the results.  Even if they don't get the message, having a bomb explode and deal massive fire damage to your party isn't the end of the world.  Most likely they survived the blast and know better for next time.

 

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

I like these suggestions but the battle system we are using limits the in-battle guidebook option so that is out of the question although Kyutaru made interesting points which I will definitely take note on them especially the "warning the players" part. The problem with other suggestions is that it would be a complete waste if I put every state in a book for players to study even though most of the state will be a boss specific state that only occurs during their phases, this is the main problem my tester has pointed out, the state name pops up but how do we let the player know what it does is the issue and everyone is saying: "Putting description of state in battle when used 1st time bad idea." I totally understand why which just opens the gap of the problem bigger XD

 

[Julien Brightside]

Can you post some examples of states you have in the game?

If we can guess what they do based on the names, they don't really need a description.

 

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

Trust me, you won't know what they will do.

Soul Burst

Last Wish

Infernias' Oblivion Unsheathed

Those are three state examples for boss phases. these are unique-one-of-a-kind states, there are more but I don't want to leak that much.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

I think I have an idea for the first two, but the last one? It sounds like an end-game ultimate spell to me.


and I'm gonna vote for Kyutaru's suggestions...

 

[CWells]

I was concerned with this for my game and how to introduce the effects of states and what they do. I'm considering having either a script which lists all the states so a player can see them, which I found on the master script list I think. Or I just make a text file for download with the game that explains all the states in the game and what they do. Because I am not sure how to introduce all the effects of states in the game in other ways. I think it would be odd if I walked up to...hmm. No, that could be done too. Have people in the game explain certain effects to you. Yeah, there's an idea. I gotta write that one down.

 

[TheRiotInside]

In my current game I have this quirky adventurer NPC that you keep running into periodically throughout the game. More often than not he's in some sort of trouble, which sends you off on a very short little aside to help him out. The first time you meet him, he is collapsed in a field barely coherent. Turns out he had a run in with a basilisk farther down the path, and came out of the scuffle poisoned. By helping him out and reading the conversations, you learn all about the poison state and get a little reward in the process. Next time you see him he's yet again in bad shape, this time related to another state or game mechanic. Rinse and repeat.

Basically I'm using this humourous, recurring adventurer to teach the player all about the game, while maintaining a very organic experience. I don't want to come across as thinking that my ideas are so amazing that people would want to emulate them, but hopefully this helps somebody out.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

@TheRiot - that sounds nice.

 

[ShadowLurk]

I don't want to come across as thinking that my ideas are so amazing that people would want to emulate them,

Your ideas are so amazing that I want to emulate them.... 

 

[HumanNinjaToo]

If you have a bunch of states that are boss specific, have you thought about making some dialogue between the boss and the players throughout the fight? For instance, the first time the boss uses/applies this state he will make some snide comment to the characters. Then they could say something insightful like, "Hey watch out, he looks like he's gonna puke!" I think that would give a bit of explanation without taking away from game immersion.

 

[whitesphere]

I've never seen a game describe, in the middle of a battle, what a status effect does.

If I felt it were essential for the player to know, I'd give the player a little handbook item, which describes what the effects do.  But, even there I wouldn't give details like "50% chance to miss".  I'd give the type of information a player would know such as "increased chance to miss attacks" and implicitly assume anything not stated is not affected.  So, it might be like:

Blind:  Increases chance of attacks missing

Silence:  Cannot cast magic spells

Poison: Does damage every round in battle (or step out of battle) until cured

Confuse: Chance of attacking allies instead of enemies

Paralyze:  Cannot move, cast spells or use items

Stun:  Same as Paralyze, but doesn't last as long

 

[Mouser]

From what I'm reading, you're describing raid bosses. You may not have all the 'scripts' that a HM Raid Boss does (or maybe you do), but it sounds like you're really trying to recreate that experience by having the unique states and attacks.

If that's the case, don't tell the players squat. Let them fight the boss 20 or 30 times until they learn the scripts and the states and how to counter them (strategies and guides will of course eventually be posted on the Intertubes). When they finally do clear that dungeon they'll have a great feeling of accomplishment. And they didn't even have to get 18 or more of their closest friends to join them at the same time to experience it.