Bonus Assets (Routine Release) via DL Editor

Discussion in 'Editor Suggestions and Improvement' started by RetroBoy, Apr 13, 2017.

?

Do you want this?

  1. Yes

    7 vote(s)
    24.1%
  2. No

    21 vote(s)
    72.4%
  3. Yes, but not important.

    1 vote(s)
    3.4%
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  1. RetroBoy

    RetroBoy Veteran Veteran

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    Description of the Feature:
    I would like the company to hire or put to work a small team of people. Their entire job is to create maps and Generator Parts and upload them on a weekly or biweekly rate. Then update the Resource Manager so you can browse these "Stock" Maps and Generator Parts and download them directly into their respective folders (if you so wish).

    Mockups:
    A simple menu with a "Preview" option to see what you are downloading.

    Why is this feature good?
    Regular Free Content (Yes, Free, Preferably) for basic maps (they don't need to be astounding) and generator parts will allow players more diversity. As it is there are too few skin tones. I can't make Blue-Skins or real Kekistanians with the current tones without using a plugin. The generator is an excellent asset and it is a strong selling point for the builder but there is not enough diversity. It needs to be significantly more expansive.

    Possible issues with this feature?
    They would need to hire a regular (and reliable) team (preferably in house). There are none. If money is an issue then they could do a subscription service like this site used to have BUT if they did, they would have to lower their prices. As $80 + Sub is not something I think will attract a lot of new faces.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
    #1
  2. mlogan

    mlogan Global Moderators Global Mod

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    I voted No, because I think this would quickly become a big nightmare with people demanding specific resources that they want and ranting when they don't get it. Not to mention, it's not right to ask artists to commit to doing something like this for free, and paying them would mean taking money out of an already stretched budget that could be going towards adding technical features to the program itself.

    We have a great community who already contribute free resources. You can also spend some time learning to make some of them yourself - skin tones for example, are not difficult at all to change once you know what you are doing. Not to mention there are many resources where members have edited the generator gradients to reflect more diverse/realistic tones for hair and skin. Just mentioning that one since you did.
     
    #2
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  3. feckyeslife

    feckyeslife Sleepy Cat Mom Veteran

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    I can't see this being something that either Degica or the forums would be able to sustain. Perhaps a subscription service could guarantee some level of this (perhaps with more ReStaff releases? Just spit balling here) but it would have to be at a decent rate in order to justify the hours that artists would spend to then release items without charge. Every generator part requires a half dozen pieces to function properly unless you want pieces that don't have face graphics or SV sprites or some combination. It's just a lot for the artists to be expected to do without some kind of monetary compensation. Plus, since the forums don't have ads, it's not like driving traffic here is advantageous per se for the company other than getting people to stick with the brand whenever new paid content comes out.

    A non-editor related suggestion would be a push for more RTP-style content packs a la the Japanese packs for more affordable price points. But I don't think that we're going to get more content for free :kaoswt2:
     
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  4. BubbleMatrix82

    BubbleMatrix82 Norm Rejecting Black Sheep Veteran

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    I don't understand why people are speaking for a company they don't work for. That's like me saying "Nope, we can't ask Microsoft to bring back Clippy because Microsoft did a peer review and found out Clippy would be perfect as a negative meme" which is complete garbage since I don't have insider information. #BringBackClippy

    I think this feature should be voted YES with a conditional branch (See what I did there?).
    [*]Make it subscription based to have 1 month exclusive access to resources before casuals get it. Might as well include plugins, music, sound effects, and enemies while you are at it.
    [*]For non-subscribers, give it to them for free after a month but compile super premium things as a DLC instead.

    I do think that the lack of resources BUILT INTO THE GUI is a turn off. I hate looking for things on the internet then having to copypasta things into folders. Just give it to me in the engine and treat the engine like a marketplace.
     
    #4
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  5. Andar

    Andar Veteran Veteran

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    The Member+ subscription service with the extra M+ resources was discontinued for several reasons, including the fact that the subscriptions did not get enough money for the artists to continue the work on the resources. But before it was discontinued, several tries to reformat the subscription were made in hope to find a working solution. They all failed and the program had to be stopped.

    I think everyone would like to start something like M+ again, but before that could be done it would need a working proposal for getting money to pay for it. A simple subscription like M+ has been proven to not work, unfortunately.
     
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  6. BubbleMatrix82

    BubbleMatrix82 Norm Rejecting Black Sheep Veteran

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    Hmmmm, sounds like the community isn't as large and resourceful as people are making it out to be.

    Here's my suggestion:
    • Make a community driven resource subscription service. Call it "Resources Delivered (RD)".
    • Update the rpgmakerweb.com page to allow "RD" users to login to upload content for review (have the content go to an isolated sandbox where it doesn't infect the server if it was malicious).
    • Hire a dedicated staff to review uploads for copyright infringement and for other legal things.
    • Have content that gets advanced put in the queue for cloud syncing with the RD resource client that's built into the RMMV editor under the new "developer tools" area.
    • Run Facebook announced contests for specific content like Dragonoids, Warrior Cats, Nerdy Classrooms, Battle Music, Modern Day Gym Sounds, etc. and run a free RD 1 year subscription for the winner each month.
    • Have this be a Steam exclusive so you can run the subscription through Steam. If that's not fair then think of a new solution before shooting it down.
    • Still have Premium DLC, but make them more valuable by selling packs. Especially for people who refuse to get the RD subscription.

    The only reason why it would fail being set up as a community driven resource service is if your real target audience for this product was 13 to 25 year olds like I suspect. In that case then, they are saving their $$$$ for Netflix, Funimation, their cell phone, and for their bad habits to cope with being poor (like smoking, drinking, or partying). I would pay $10/month for access to lots of content like this. That's $120/yr. Make it $99/yr as an upfront cost and you have a deal.

    I know people will still be skeptical, but let's be honest, crowd sourcing is a very powerful tool. Especially with so many altruistic, passionate, and young minded people in the world today; all you have to do is gamify the process, and people will do just about anything you want them too through behaviorism.
     
    #6
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  7. RetroBoy

    RetroBoy Veteran Veteran

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    I would also like to mention that I think "in house" artists over at japan working directly for the company should take priority over freelancers on a message board. I'm suggesting getting a team of dedicated creators (in office over in Japan) whose job it is to make sprite and generator parts, then stagger their release over the year. Plus, I've seen talented spriters make a sprite in 15 minutes. Its not "super difficult" if you said I want 3-10 new ears by the end of the day, they can be edits of existing ears. Tomorrow you do eyes. It could be done.
     
    #7
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  8. Engr. Adiktuzmiko

    Engr. Adiktuzmiko Chemical Engineer, Game Developer, Using BlinkBoy' Veteran

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    It has been done before, and no it didn't work as to how it was expected to be. And it was cheap btw, $42 per year if you get a 12 month subscription. Just because you can pay 120 USD/yr means every people your age or older in this forum can. This is specially thru for people who are just making games as a hobby and won't even be selling the games that they make (which ever since I started here are the majority).

    @RetroBoy - But if Degica is to hire a dedicated team to make resources every month, I doubt they can keep it free so it will most probably be just like normal DLCs or a subs based thingie. But as said, subs based failed before so if they're gonna do it again they pretty much need assurance from the community that we will indeed be subscribing.

    We also have the ReStaff program which IDK if it's still being continued or not but it's basically a program where "Resource Staffs" around here work on releasing resources every month.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  9. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    #9
  10. BubbleMatrix82

    BubbleMatrix82 Norm Rejecting Black Sheep Veteran

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    BG (sorry don't know how to do the username tagging) --- You don't seem to understand how wide plagiarism is in the 13 to 25 audience. Who cares if there's a creative commons, I'm going to steal {Insert art thing here} and there's nothing they can do about it since it isn't DRM protected. The point is, if the community makes it for the community and posts it in the forums (even with a watermark) then someone is going to steal it. It's just how poor children in America do things (yes, I'm calling 18 to 25 year olds children - come at me bro). So yes, art might be expensive, but as soon as it is released into the wild, even if locked to "members only", every community has its leaches who steal and don't give credit where it's due... This is why if something like this is ever implemented, it has to be controlled by Degica, to make sure it's distributed equally to all users and not just to the thieves or the highly active forum users. But the price for something is free if you have access to stealing it or someone else steals it then posts it as a free item on another network (like RMN).

    E.Miko (sorry, couldn't find a good way to abbreviate that name) --- Setting up services isn't a big deal. It honestly isn't. The real problem is convincing people it has value. Obviously, people didn't see the value in a distribution platform when they could just go on various sites, or even search on Google, and steal what they wanted. So the distribution has to be marketed/advertised in the actual program in order for it to succeed. My suggestion is create the RD hub and have it built into the maker (which doesn't create any commitment to the product as it can easily be patched out later). Have a "nag" ad pop up when you open the editor talking about the service and the agreed price points and how to sign up. Then just wait and see what happens. The content would still have to be abundant and unique, but with contests, competitions, contributors, altruists, and a community centered around content (not coding) you will have a wide variety of resources available.

    Honestly, the service could work with the right marketing and the right contests. As E.Miko mentioned, most people who use the product are lower SES and can't afford the $100/yr subscription that I can; this either implies that they are indeed 13 to 25 year olds and all their money is going to towards cars and college and rent OR it implies that the reason people are here is to quit their day job one day and get rich off of making a game (which they are modestly calling a hobby so they don't get attacked for having high hopes). The point is, you can't improve a product without knowing your target market. That would be like selling alcohol at the age restriction of 21 and pretending to not know that your real target audience is 15 to 20 year olds (sleezy but true)
     
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  11. Engr. Adiktuzmiko

    Engr. Adiktuzmiko Chemical Engineer, Game Developer, Using BlinkBoy' Veteran

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    But for most people here, this is indeed just a hobby and they don't hope making money from it. Saying that it's just a hobby isn't an alibi, it's the truth. We've been here for long enough to know about the demographic of most of the users.

    That's exactly why they will probably not implement a system like the Member+ again, because they do know that the members won't buy it.
     
    #11
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  12. feckyeslife

    feckyeslife Sleepy Cat Mom Veteran

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    Hobbiest here o3o/
    I personally don't have the cashflow to throw 100-200 bucks out the window every year to support the artists that it would presumably take to kickstart this program. Will I once I finish grad school and get a legitimate salary? Maybe yes maybe no, because my costs will also increase as I'll be looking to get a house and a mortgage and all that good stuff. For now, I'm selective about the resources that I purchase and pay careful attention to the usage agreements of the resources available on the forums.

    Your points and attitude feel rather condescending because not every user of the program has the same cashflow you apparently do to put into their projects. Sure, some people here do have money but others don't. It's the question of whether or not there are enough haves than have-nots who would be able to sustain this project. People are telling you that this was attempted previously and it was not possible with the user base that currently exists.

    And to this point, I would literally die if every single time that I opened RMMV there was an ad for their ~premium~ service. I bought a piece of software, not a billboard.
     
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  13. Engr. Adiktuzmiko

    Engr. Adiktuzmiko Chemical Engineer, Game Developer, Using BlinkBoy' Veteran

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    Given that the normal development cycle for a single game here is 1 year or more, chances are most resources that you will be getting for 1 year of subscription won't even be useful to you.

    It's basically impractical for someone who already has a project/s in mind to pay for a set of resources that he will probably not use anyway.

    Also, most people who has the money and actually want to sell their games would actually prefer (or be better off) finding an artist to hire to make completely new assets specific for their games. The more original your graphics are (assuming they are good graphics), the more chances of your game for making good sales.
     
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  14. BubbleMatrix82

    BubbleMatrix82 Norm Rejecting Black Sheep Veteran

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    You only know the forums here. Actually, you only know the EXTROVERTS here. I've received a few likes from people who have never commented; every community has their silent majority (not intentionally a Trump reference, it's just true). If you feel you know the demographics because of your tenure here, great! But I think you are having a bad "big picture" view here. Think about how active the forums are, now think about how many times RMMV and RMVXA have been downloaded (legally), now think about how many times it was torrented or distributed illegally by another community/forum. You can't just make the product for the people here. rpgmakerweb.com does not represent the entirety of RM users. So again, you have to know (like really know) who your target audience is. And I have reason to believe that the target audience are storywriters/artists/level designers who are between 13 and 25; not the niche that has comfortably created itself a collective identity on these forums. So a service like this subscription thing is doable, it just needs a better marketing team and approach to sell it.

    Again, we can't speak for a business entity. Businesses chase money. That's what they do. It's how they pay the people who work for the business and it's how they survive. Sadly, RMMV isn't being forced to evolve because people are too scared to make huge dream ideas (I have the 4 that are public and 5 more waiting in moderation - so I'm doing my share). So what happens when you have a product that is the same year over year and version over version? You lose people's attention and you lose relevance (people are giving on RPG making dreams to go do something else - I hear Fire Emblem Heroes and Pokemon Go are pretty popular right now). So that's why RMMV needs to evolve, to build it's clientel and stop only catering to the loyal people here exclusively. After all, as you've stated, most people here aren't going to pay Degica any money, so it only makes sense to find a new target demographic (one with money and higher on the SES) that can pay the $100/year. But reaching out to them would require this "programmers' engine" to evolve to be "anyone can make a game without a team" area; an area that many fear would degrade the quality of games produces by RMMV. But in my opinion, the quality already sucks. Do a search on RPG Maker on Steam and look at what's being made. Now do a search on IOS or Android for JRPG; the competition is fierce, and the engine isn't doing much to keep up with times. That's why Degica needs to take chances; there's money to be made, they just need the right idea to gather a crowd. A bigger crowd than the 3DS game coming out is gathering.

    Combining my reply to someone else below since I can't double post:

    There's no intentional condescension, it's just an economic fact; you can't afford the $100 a year and I can, and Degica should be targeting me not you. Businesses chase money, not a loyal community. Think about this, the only reason we all can't have our way is because Degica is a very small team of developers who don't have enough cash flow to cover everyone's salary to make improvements. If they stopped feeding the community and instead went to the masses, the engine could implement everything that is suggested. In a capitalist world (which we can deny we are in out of favor of socialist ideals we hold about how the world should work but it wouldn't stop the capitalist world from existing) you have to think with capital (money) and not with head counts (existing community). Degica only makes money if people are making games, plain and simple; fewer people making games, fewer people BUYING the software (opposed to torrenting it or getting it some other illegal way). Even sales to drop it to $40 isn't enough to make a person buy the software legally if they can't see the value of a legal copy.

    As far as your grad school comment, are you under or around the age of 25? If so, that only proves my point that this product's target audience IS 13 to 25 year olds.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  15. Engr. Adiktuzmiko

    Engr. Adiktuzmiko Chemical Engineer, Game Developer, Using BlinkBoy' Veteran

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    We are here, and we focus on the audience here.

    We don't condone illegal use of the engine so clearly we won't make resources that are meant for those who use pirated versions of the software.

    Programmer's engine? It's not. Maybe it looks like it to you because you're just starting out and yet you seem to think that you can already make something "big" right away without building a skill set.

    I've already tried and used a lot of different game engines and RM as far as making a game without needing to code is the best I've seen.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
    #15
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  16. mlogan

    mlogan Global Moderators Global Mod

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    The reason some of us seem to be speaking for a company we don't work for is because 1) we know the people who do work for it and are more aware of background stuff than you are and 2) we've been around long enough to know generally how things are working around here.

    You both still seem to be a bit confused as to what exactly is going on here and who is doing the improvements. There is no "in house" artists in Japan to be dealing with. To the best of my knowledge, these suggestions are being implemented by the American branch of Degica - not some big Kadokawa empire that you seem to envision reading your suggestions to be implemented with their endless budget.

    Degica is a much smaller company, with far fewer employees to implement this all than you are imagining with a very limited budget.

    Further, as has been said, a very similar idea has been put into place without success. Not only was there M+, but there was the Season Pass - a prepaid DLC with releases every few months. And what happened? While there were some valid complaints and areas where improvements could be made, those most vocal about complaining about it were those who had unrealistic expectations in their heads and were disappointed when they what they felt SHOULD be in there (not something that was promised) was not there. In addition, even with something like Restaff, there is still plenty of complaining over FREE resources not being exactly what someone wants.

    I may be wrong, but I just absolutely do not see this happening as the price point it would take to hire enough staff/artists to implement this the way either of you see fit would be too high for enough users to purchase it.

    I'm not saying this as anything "political" or to limit MV or just shoot down your ideas for the hell of it. I'm saying it from a realistic viewpoint of having been around long enough to know a *slight* bit more about what is going on behind the scenes, to have seen the public's reaction to such things and how it has affected those artists who HAVE done such things in the past.
     
    #16
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  17. BubbleMatrix82

    BubbleMatrix82 Norm Rejecting Black Sheep Veteran

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    @E.Miko - This explains why RPG Maker doesn't truly evolve then. You basically just exposed the hidden politics of these forums. "If people cared so much about having a good product, they would come here and complain". But what if they are decent people and they just trust the company (Degica) to make a good product that targets them better since companies are supposed to do market research and feedback groups to know what people want? The point is, these forums aren't the only legal forums online. And these forums, represented by extroverted or ambiverted people, don't represent all the users that are here. So honestly, putting things up to vote like this is kind of dumb. The only thing I've seen that had a unanimous decisions is the one that allows everyone to steal Yanfly's plugins directly from the Editor, other than that, everyone votes "no" on everything to make sure no one gets what they want and they can get what they want. It's not a true democracy here, it's only self minded.

    And as far as condoning, shaming/condemning doesn't stop piracy any more than abstinence stops STIs from spreading (looking at you Florida and Texas with your rise of STIs statewide). The point is, the only way to stop piracy is to make resources (not just the client but the content too) DRM. Since we can't do that except through DLC and the Subscription service, the real community is an underground community where they use licensed content from their favorite existing games (I hear Final Fantasy sprites are where it's at). It doesn't matter if you condone it or not, it exists. That's why you absolutely have to make a product that makes paying for the product/content more appealing than stealing it.

    As you've noticed with my other comments, I don't care whether I am the black sheep. I'm not part of this community, I am here only because I was invited to improve a product that I enjoy. We can pretend what I say has no value, but it doesn't stop it from being true or a reality that is overlooked.

    EDIT:
    So, about those assets... I still think a community focused contribution repository is the best option. It already exists in the forums, someone just has to collect it and create a channel to distribute it into the game for everyone. It would do two major things (1) it would make the editor way more interesting for all the paid users, (2) it would solidify this forum as the only dependable resource for RMMV and it could grow the community (which will bring more unwelcome people like me, but that's the risk of getting bigger and more popular, and becoming a more financially independent platform)
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  18. mlogan

    mlogan Global Moderators Global Mod

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    Wow, unwelcome? Just because people have differing opinions than you? Yes, Degica has asked for suggestions. Yes, they do want to hear them and want to know what the community thinks about them. That's not an open-ended "We promise to implement every suggestion you make."

    Also, those of who are "opposing" you are not doing so because you are new or are a "black sheep" - your words - or because we are resistant to change, it's because we are trying to give the viewpoint of experience. I'll say it once more - these changes are being implemented by a much smaller company, and therefore, budget than you are imagining. Just because Kadokawa has given their permission for changes to be made, does not mean that they've given their money to it. And yes, that DOES factor into the improvements that can be reasonably made.
     
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  19. BubbleMatrix82

    BubbleMatrix82 Norm Rejecting Black Sheep Veteran

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    "Just because people have differing opinions than you" --- I'm pretty sure no one saying things in this forum believes their opinions are just "opinions". Many people are speaking matter of fact, which is very offputting. I'm unwelcome because I'm not part of the radical acceptance; I said this on another thread. People who have radically accepted the norms fight people who want radical change. This isn't unique to these forums, this is a human problem. People who are comfortable with things the way they are will resist those who are uncomfortable for things to stay the same; even town hall meetings where people have to vote to demolish a building that is blight would vote to keep it for some really dumb reason just to preserve the past or the things they are comfortable with. Humans are generally very competitive, for no good reason too...

    I don't want anyone's viewpoint of experience or the past. The past is useless except to show us that SOMETHING didn't work. Honestly, I just hear a bunch of quitters on these forums. "We tried that once and it didn't work, so it will never work". Can you imagine saying that the first time you tried riding a bike? "Oops, I fell off the bike, so I'll never learn to ride a bike, time to buy some roller skates"... It just doesn't seem like anyone wants to try things a 2nd time here. Which is sad, because sometimes things are ahead of its time or it was poorly implemented and it would have worked just under different RNG conditions.

    Kadokawa is a business that wants to make money. The only reason they would reject projects is if it gave no value to the editor/engine that could be marketable. If a business spends development dollars on something that doesn't improve their product to make MORE money then these requests are really just overhead costs - which should be reserved for ONLY bugs and glitches, not preferences.

    Maybe that's the reason why the engine/editor needs so many plugins to "work properly", because no one wants Kadokawa to profit off of their hard work creating plugins, and Kadokawa doesn't want to do work that they can't see will turn over an immediate profit (hence the DLC packs and the upgraded pixel maker paid downloads). Maybe if we started thinking like a business would we would get more approved? That's my point. Make a distribution channel other than DLC that has the potential to yield them more money than DLC would (most people wait for it to go on sale 50% off or more) and have the resources of content be essentially "free", then you have a cash crop that feeds itself and makes Kadokawa more money to support Degica Games and other pet projects.

    And don't prey on me and my self comment about black sheep, I said that statement as a way to prove that I was not going to bend to the community's solidarity way of thinking. I will not relent just because of the past. If that makes me unfavorable here, fine. I just wanted to draw the line in the sand myself so people know that I can't have my opinions/beliefs changed.
     
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  20. mlogan

    mlogan Global Moderators Global Mod

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    Okey dokey.
     
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