Bonus Assets (Routine Release) via DL Editor

[Andar]

@BubbleMatrix82 In your answer to @bgillisp above (post #10) you missed the point why he linked you to Celianna's cost description.
The ARTIST who creates those artwork to be distributed need to get paid, and they need to get paid enough for their time in creating the resources to continue that work and life from it.
And M+ didn't get enough money to pay for the artwork it distributed as well as the logistics for handling everything.

All your discussions about distributing resources doesn't change the fact that the people creating them need to get paid first, before they can start to reliably and repeatedly create those resources. If you can't pay someone to create the resources you want to be shared, then those resources won't be made. And no, you can't just ask for community work for something like that - that won't get the quality or consistency needed for such a (paid) program.

It's the same with the editor improvements - there are limited funds to pay for those changes (which is why there is work being done to prepare for a open source branch of the engine), and some of the wishes given are simply too expensive to be done with the existing funds.
And you can't increase the price for the engine without leaving its target audience and going into segments where the RPG-Makers would not be top of their niche (with no real competition) but would be bottom-level fighting against other programs who already have made their place with those other target audiences.

 

[BubbleMatrix82]

@BubbleMatrix82 In your answer to @bgillisp above (post #10) you missed the point why he linked you to Celianna's cost description.
The ARTIST who creates those artwork to be distributed need to get paid, and they need to get paid enough for their time in creating the resources to continue that work and life from it.
And M+ didn't get enough money to pay for the artwork it distributed as well as the logistics for handling everything.

All your discussions about distributing resources doesn't change the fact that the people creating them need to get paid first, before they can start to reliably and repeatedly create those resources. If you can't pay someone to create the resources you want to be shared, then those resources won't be made. And no, you can't just ask for community work for something like that - that won't get the quality or consistency needed for such a (paid) program.

It's the same with the editor improvements - there are limited funds to pay for those changes (which is why there is work being done to prepare for a open source branch of the engine), and some of the wishes given are simply too expensive to be done with the existing funds.
And you can't increase the price for the engine without leaving its target audience and going into segments where the RPG-Makers would not be top of their niche (with no real competition) but would be bottom-level fighting against other programs who already have made their place with those other target audiences.

I see your point of view, everyone's here to be honest, but you all are just stuck in absolutes. You can't look at this from a fresh perspective, which is your failure, not mine.

The solution around paying artists for their work is contests. You don't pay contestants for entering a contest, you pay them for winning a contest. You might even charge them for their entry! This is not illegal, nor is it a pyramid scheme, this is just how capitalism works. It's just as legal as internships are. And the prize they get doesn't even have to have value outside of the community, which is why I said give them a year free access to the paid subscription service. Look, it is a little on the sleezy side because you're basically getting free stuff for nothing and exploiting your community, but the point is that you now have content that you can distribute to all members of the (paid) community. Especially if you can some how encrypt the folder it downloads to so it only works inside your editor and your Steam ID. Sure, hackers will find a way around it, but that's not the point, it would be hard with encryption. But I've digressed. The point is, you don't have to pay anyone for anything if you make all entries to their contests property of Degica once the submission is sent. And when you distribute it, you mention them as a contributor and that's that. I mean, you're not really "buying" the content, you're paying for the service that distributes the content; it's not the same.

As far as Degica not having any money, that's because RPG Maker doesn't yield them any money. Again, no one wants to validate that RM has been an illegally obtained product for over 20 years. Do I need to remind everyone that Don Miguel was the main reason RM2k and RM2k3 became popular? Had it not been because of that era of mass piracy and illegal copyright sprite use, RM wouldn't have much of a following in the USA at all. I would even argue that RMMV is only having a mass comeback because people believe they can make real games with this engine to sell. Yes, there are hobbyists, but Degica cares very little about its hobbyists (they can't make money off of them except DLC). So again, it's about improving the editor/engine to help RM position itself to be actually worth the $80 price tag and not have people wait for it to be 60% during the Steam Summer Sale. And we aren't going to do that if we can't increase the number of resources the engine has without "hunting" on the forums or on various websites. I'd even argue that Degica needs to talk with Square Enix to see how much it would cost to get their sprites legally and offer that as licensed DLC (even if it is $60).

The point is, nothing suggested here is going to make them money except bug fixes (look at what's approved - bug fixes). So you have to think of how to make your ideas work to make them money. I have 9 total ideas, many of them are overhead expenses, but they all work to improve the install base of paid users. Most of the other improvements on here are about trying to make "coding" easier, and Degica's response is going to be "Boo Hoo, wait for a plugin" because they don't make money on coders. At least not yet. I'd pay for premium plugins if they worked with little to no effort on my part... See, more ways to capitalize on the community so Degica can be a better company to make requests with. This is how community based products work, the rich pay for the premium content, the poor benefit from all the extra money the rich people gave the devs. There will always be SES problems, that's why companies have a hard time surviving when they focus too much on the community.

 

[Andar]

@BubbleMatrix82
So basically you're saying that we have to exploit artists that want to help? because no matter how you phrase that, such contests are exploits and mosts serious artist communities are actively advising their members to never enter such contests.
As a result the only resources you get from such contests are sub-par, and the good results are never enough to sustain such a program for long.
Because if you checked, a lot of times those contests are either one-time-cases or they expressivly state that only the winning (and paid) resources will be used and the non-winning entries remain property of the individual artists.

 

[Ms Littlefish]

Entering contests and maybe winning doesn't feed your family. I mean, of course, there's the "option" to continue exploiting those who are already beyond constantly exploited. There is no "working around" paying someone for their work, not if you actually care about the value of fine arts. It's ideas like this that perpetuate the attitude that jobs in the fine arts are "a joke."

 

[BubbleMatrix82]

@Andar
By the words of the game Recettear "Capitalism, Ho!"

This is how companies like Degica survive and it is how many companies survive. And it's not like there aren't people posting free stuff in forums all over the internet already. These are the people who would be entering in the contests, not the people trying to make a living off of pixel art, music, coding, or making games. Again, the target audience for this product is 13 to 25 year olds; 13 to 18 can't even legally make money making a game on Steam or Deviantart, so giving them a way to get something free is better than them having to steal it. Degica makes NO money off of the indie scene; am I suggesting to make this product into less of a charity focused product and more of one that is sustainable? Yes.

@Ms Littlefish
I don't know why you are feeding your family off of composing for hobbyists. If you came to RPG Maker to quit your day job and make money off of Steam or people with dreams of getting published on Steam, how is your line of work different than exploiting the altrustic, low SES, and/or passionate people of a community for corporate profit so the corporate company can improve the very same engine that everyone loves with the new flow of income? Besides, if you are "that good" that people will pay for your stuff, the free stuff will be garbage compared to your stuff, right? Why worry? Or are you existentially concerned because you like to keep competition at bay?

EDIT:
I'm seeing a lot of selfish reasons on these forums on why the editor/engine and the business model of the company can't change. Why even have an improvement forum if no one wants it to improve except for personal gain?

 

[bgillisp]

I'd be careful calling it selfish, because honestly, you have to compromise too with your ideas. Else, you are the selfish one here. Just keep that in mind, else this is the classic pot calling the kettle black.

All ideas will take editing and compromise. Very few are good out of the box. I'm sure the original rough draft for Harry Potter was trash, but look at where it is now. So just keep that in mind, and remember you may need to compromise on some of your ideas too.

 

[Ms Littlefish]

That's simple. This isn't my job. I share all my materials for free, but my doing so doesn't mean everyone else needs to be happy to do so.

 

[BubbleMatrix82]

@bgillisp
Compromise is fine such as long as it is meeting in the middle. (This isn't my thread, I just hijacked it). Many people are shooting people down without the "Developer" tag in their left profile area; that to me means that this is a political rejection, not a developer rejection. When someone puts forward a reason my ideas are pointless other than "I won't use it" I will give a more fair compromise, but so far everyone's talking fears or trying to push all ideas into plugins and not depend on Degica. I've never tried to work with Degica before, are they really difficult to get things approved? If so, again this has to do with economic value and how Degica can make their money on develpment costs back for implementing things. Outside of DLC, Degica only makes money on new installments of the software, not existing ones.

@Ms Littlefish
Well see, if you share all your materials for free, then there's no reason Degica can't profit off your hard work to use the money to improve the engine/editor and to give us newer versions (MV Ultra edition). Yanfly can do the same with his plugins and the pixel artists can give up their talent to support their product too. In exchange, everyone gets a portfolio equivalent exposure to the world and the end users who aren't tech savvy have direct distribution of resources so they can make non-RTP games. It's a win, win! Especially since DLC is so limited in what it has to offer.

 

[bgillisp]

That's fine. Just be sure to carefully read all posts and prepare to meet in the middle. See, since I code a little, (very little. As in, I can read and understand what code is doing most of the time, but not write my own well) I try to point out some issues and ideas from that perspective, and see what we can achieve on the way. For example, as you saw, I was able to come with an idea for how to maybe make one of your ideas work so far.

As for how hard are they to work with...we have to see. This is the first time they even opened the door to suggestions. Until then, it was hope it is in the next version of RPGMaker!

 

[RetroBoy]

I am probably going to instantly be labeled a black sheep too here but I have to agree with "most" of what Bubble has said.

I am not here to be confrontational at all but on several occasions I have felt very "left out" and as an outsider. I have felt that things I have raised or suggested have been met with resistance and when I tried to understand WHY it took about three or so posts for that to become clear to me. I'm not an idiot either, I just do not understand some of the finer points of programming.

I have written pen and paper RPGs and worked for big names in that industry. So I am not "newbie" when it comes to "Game Design" and Mechanics but I do not have a breadth of understanding with code.

The implications (given at the top of this forum) is that the company wanted suggestions for how to improve the engine. Not everything I've said has been met with resistance but a lot has. Not a lot of which has had reasonable discussion.

In my eyes the product I have purchased serves a role. It is a tool. I purchased it to do a task. Since I have perhaps four friends in this whole community, the big sell off "RPG MAKER is a community!" is not a selling point for me. Frankly, I just don't care. I understand the logic and its nice but I haven't felt particularly welcome.

I've found the board is very heavily moderated (which is not a bad thing) but as a "new comer" its intimidating because the mods are very imposing. Common mistakes FEEL like you're getting a warning or like you're in trouble when there was no maliciousness or ill-intent behind them.

Likewise, apparently there are people here who understand things fundamentally better than us "black sheep" or new guys I suppose. Which also is a bit difficult to come to grips with.

When certain things are mentioned like "Unlimited Budget" it feels combative and not like a fair representation of my proposal at all. The failed systems failed because you were trying to make enough money to pay a large(r) number of artists to create consistent content when in effect many of them are hobbyists. Even the most skilled artists in this community for the most part have other jobs or are unemployed (as far as I have been told anyway).

I was not suggesting hiring a big animation studio to make assets, rather hire one to three individuals full time with the express purpose of producing additional generator parts. Likewise, the insistence that I can use plugins to expand the range of skin colors is well-known to me but it is UNREASONABLE given you have a color slider in the enemy section. If it exists in the editor you SHOULD be able to do it. You should not NEED to go beyond the builder.

I think that fresh eyes really are seeing problems that you've become accustomed to or learned to overlook.

When someone buys this product they're not buying it for the power of friendship. That is nice and all and its fun and exciting making friends but they're buying a tool. And if there are really simple functions that are not possible (again, having so many limited skin colors) and awesome features that are difficult to navigate it becomes frustrating rather than appealing.

The Generator in particular is an incredible tool. However, adding new parts is something most new players will have to learn to do and there is lots of room for error. This is a turn off. It might not matter to the people who know the solution but you can't always get to the solution easily and a simple monthly update with some new ears or eye-shapes from a regular artist (or three) would go a great distance to improving the experience.

I also do not think that this improvement should be handled by people on the board or the community, but rather people who have to wake up in the morning, make coffee and go to the office. Not essentially "fans" of the product who love it and are making art assets between making their own game projects.

I do not expect them to have an "unlimited budget" and (having run a business which depended on regular art deliver; being comic books) I know that it can be done and is not the heinous expense it is being made out to be. Even if it was, alternatives exist. Such as outsourcing to Indonesia is always very effective and cheap. India is quite good too if you use the proper channels.

I didn't make the suggestions to ruffle the feathers. Nor did I make the above comment to upset anyone. It is just difficult being someone with a fresh perspective being told all your ideas are bad. Its intimidating and discouraging.

At the end of the day, RPG MAKER needs to be easy to use and certain elements that are essential for making a game work are still very inaccessible. I realize there might be some issues (like the online functionality problems) and I can give on that now that it has been explained to me BUT that does not mean I think it was a wise move from a business standpoint.

If you place community and the status quo over improving the accessibility of the tool its a real stumbling block. Especially if you're not popular or attractive or making a particularly revolutionary game. If you are someone like me (or Bubble from what I've read) you know how things work and you can use the database. So, you will (as much as possible) try to work within those bounds to do what you need to do... because you risk screwing up EVERYTHING if you step outside them.

This is a fear I don't think that the experienced Devs have. Of course, I am not beyond the idea "GIT GOOD", I mean keep in mind...

I am the guy that broke the 999 win streak on MAX STARS Survival on SF:A3. I "get" "GIT GOOD" but the question becomes, what do you need to put the effort in for and what is the reward?

In the instance of my SFA3 record. I got my ass kissed over on the Capcom boards, got a name for myself in the fighting game community, and disproved the fake screenshots that had been leaked saying additional content was unlocked when it was done. So, I put in the time and the work and it was glorious.

What do I get if I bust my ass to learn how to move a menu?

It can look the way I want. Woo~

Not really the same kind of passion or drive. Its a lot of work for a simple task that someone who already knows how to do it could do in about 30 seconds. I know, I've seen SomeRndGuy's videos on YouTube using MV and he just hammers stuff out like its nothing... sometimes in minutes. Maybe the dude is some kind of savant or something but I would still rather pay someone like that to do what I want then spend six months learning javascript.

So, when I suggested something in the interface that let me manipulate objects I was giving my opinion as "the casual user" because I am nearly 100% certain that most "normies" are not thinking they're going to have to learn JS to be able to make their menu screen look the way they want. Especially when "Windows" means we can just drag and drop windows all over our laptop all over.

Now, that said I know the difficulties. I get it. I'm not complaining. I am just trying to explain so its understand how the "normies" feel coming into this situation. There is this underlying feeling of gate keeping and it feels very discouraging. This isn't a threat or a huff, but on a few separate occasions I've honestly started looking at other Game Building engines because from the videos I've seen I think they can do what I want better (especially GMS). To me "as a normie" a "casual consumer" the ONLY reason I've stuck with MV is because I already owned it and was familiar with it.

That is NOT a good reason to stay with a product. That is the abusive relationship of consumerdom.

As for the Plugins and all of the existing content argument. Frankly, I don't use it. Again, I want my game to work and I know (from Trial and Error) that the more plugins (or scripts) I ad, the more chance I have of messing up my project. So, I stick to the absolute basics and HIRE people to make plugins that will specifically do what I want that will work with what I have. All because I am INTIMIDATED by the amount of stuff and its difficult really understanding what is good with what.

If not for Yanfly's work, I don't think I'd be able to even make a halfway decent game and "THAT" should be a basic part of the Engine. The "basic" elements like "Reflect" and "Absorb" and "Steal" are such tropes in the genre that they appear in anime based off of it and people are just expected to recognize it. Yet, to get these "basic" functions you have to go to Plugins.

This to me (though I understand why) FEELS like a failure and FEELS like an unnecessary hurdle for an early adopter.

Just how I "feel" about the whole thing. Sorry if I bothered anyone, "feelings" can often be stupid, irrational and illogical things.

 

[bgillisp]

@RetroBoy : You are right in that there are some things missing that should be standard *cough elemental absorption cough*, but some other things, some don't see as standard, and some that we just see as dumb (example: Stealing. Too much dependency on the RNGoddess for me to get items that are worth the wasted turn).

But back on topic...

I ran some numbers for you. Let's pretend that Degica decides to do this and hire 3 artists, 2 musicians and 3 programmers so they can pump out a stream of art, music, and plug-ins (as that is what the demand is, right?). Now, keep in mind to get GOOD artists and programmers they need to pay them more than the other jobs they can take. This means they will need to pay each of them a yearly salary of nearly 6 digits (as in, yes, about $100,000 each). Any less and the programmers can and will tell them no as they can make more working for IBM or Microsoft. Same with the artists and musicians (just with different companies).

So, let's assume, $100,000 for each of the 8 people hired. That's probably a little high for some, and a little low for the programmers, but is a good estimate. So $800,000 to have a team for an entire year to release content. This means Degica needs to make....let's see....0.75 * x = 800000, or $1,066,666.67 off the content or they take a loss on it (remember, they get taxed on all transactions! So that $800,000 needs to be after they pay the business taxes on the sales).

Now, do you think they can run a subscription service that needs to make in at least...let's round it to 1.1 million...that much per year to not take a loss on it? At $10 per month, or $120 per year, that means they need
to get ~9167 people to sign up for it and hold it for a year to even break even.

Now, if such a program existed, maybe more would flock to it. But, doubtful. And that is also why so many MMO's go broke (or anything else that depends on a subscription), same problem with basic math, there just isn't enough on the system to pay for it, so they go broke and have to shut it down.

 

[taarna23]

@bgillisp
Well see, if you share all your materials for free, then there's no reason Degica can't profit off your hard work to use the money to improve the engine/editor and to give us newer versions (MV Ultra edition).

I can think of two reasons.

1. Using someone else's materials without their permission is illegal, and the vast majority of artists would not consent to the use of their materials made to better a community to be used for a company to make money. It's like someone wanting to put advertising on your front lawn but give you nothing for it. It makes it look like you support whatever is being advertised, without any kind of benefit to you.
2. Degica only publishes RPG Maker. They get little to no say on what is done with the series itself. They can pass on suggestions and hope it gets considered, but nothing more.

Honestly, I think you're asking far too much. You're basically saying you want more stuff, and you want the engine for cheaper. I'm sorry you seem to think a lot of people should be working for free, or work should be outsourced to make it cheap. There's a saying: You get what you pay for. Are there going to be people that undervalue their time and effort? Absolutely. These people are often inexperienced or don't need to try to feed their families on their work. To put the people that do asset work in order to feed their families in the box of "only does RPG Maker" is unfair, and generally untrue.

@RetroBoy I get some of what you're saying. However, you need to consider the roots of the engine, as well as the fact that it was design as a basic tool to get a simple job done. At it's simplest, it was a job designed to make Dragon Warrior-styled RPGs. Absolutely the engine has come a long way from that, but that's still its core job. An awful lot of people here have a nail, are being handed a hammer and are saying "but I wanted a multi-tool." Tough. You get a hammer. Anything else is going to take effort on your part. I get not wanting to add many plugins to your game, but if it's taking a lot of them to accomplish what you need to do, perhaps it's your game design that needs reconsidering, and not the engine. However, for basic elements, as you say, perhaps they need their own suggestion, and not to be gone on about in a post about undervaluing assets.

 

[RetroBoy]

@RetroBoy : You are right in that there are some things missing that should be standard *cough elemental absorption cough*, but some other things, some don't see as standard, and some that we just see as dumb (example: Stealing. Too much dependency on the RNGoddess for me to get items that are worth the wasted turn).

But back on topic...

I ran some numbers for you. Let's pretend that Degica decides to do this and hire 3 artists, 2 musicians and 3 programmers so they can pump out a stream of art, music, and plug-ins (as that is what the demand is, right?). Now, keep in mind to get GOOD artists and programmers they need to pay them more than the other jobs they can take. This means they will need to pay each of them a yearly salary of nearly 6 digits (as in, yes, about $100,000 each). Any less and the programmers can and will tell them no as they can make more working for IBM or Microsoft. Same with the artists and musicians (just with different companies).

So, let's assume, $100,000 for each of the 8 people hired. That's probably a little high for some, and a little low for the programmers, but is a good estimate. So $800,000 to have a team for an entire year to release content. This means Degica needs to make....let's see....0.75 * x = 800000, or $1,066,666.67 off the content or they take a loss on it (remember, they get taxed on all transactions! So that $800,000 needs to be after they pay the business taxes on the sales).

Now, do you think they can run a subscription service that needs to make in at least...let's round it to 1.1 million...that much per year to not take a loss on it? At $10 per month, or $120 per year, that means they need
to get ~9167 people to sign up for it and hold it for a year to even break even.

Now, if such a program existed, maybe more would flock to it. But, doubtful. And that is also why so many MMO's go broke (or anything else that depends on a subscription), same problem with basic math, there just isn't enough on the system to pay for it, so they go broke and have to shut it down.

I wanted to respond to this but it need to be short because I am heading off to bed. In short. No. I wasnt suggesting new programmers and musicians (music id the least important thing, anyone even half serious will get their own music made). Authenticated Plugins would be nice. For example most of Yanfly's stuff should just be standardized and come standard in the builder. What I meant was art assets, as for the $100,000 a year salary for the artist. Its all about production rates at that point but I'd say that is a bit steep or could be earned back reasonably with DL sales.

I'm NOT asking for new backdrops or grand sprawling scenes. I'm not looking for new battle systems to be coded. We're talking different shapes for eyes. We're talking updates like the recent child set for the generator. We're talking different hair styles, head shapes. Very basic things. I am not a digital artist but I'm no slouch. Plus, I've worked in comics... close to eight years now. So, I know that most newbies are going to be willing to work for beans because the alternative is starving. Most artists will be happy to be able to make a wage and I am not saying enslave them, you need to give enough so they can survive and are happy but you don't pay them top book rates.

You also may not even need to hire them for an entire year. You just need an entire year of release content, which is then staggered with monthly patches.

That would be my recommendation. And the reason for this recommendation is because "New Content being added each month!" will sell in a trailer. It will also create community buzz and discussion and create more versatility within one of MVs greatest strengths. Right now there is an artist who has produced a number of extremely amazing animorph body types which can be DLed and added to the builder. They are amazing and were produced and can be used for free, but they are the kind of thing that should be in the builder. If people SAW that in the trailer more people would buy it. When I am looking for a game maker I am looking for the things I can do with it and I think that is pretty standard.

Now, this comes down to me saying "I want X but I got a hammer" as the example was given but "RPG MAKER" means you can make RPGs. There are expectations that come with that. It is (in my humble opinion) always better to exceed those exceptions than to thumb your nose, wiggle the dollar bill and say "Got yet money!"

Regularly scheduled content, new face parts, new head shapes, new skin tones, new noses, eyes, mouths (more important than new clothing in my opinion but that too IF possible) produced and released as a standard part of the builder via update. That is the dream. I get it won't happen, but if it was like that "from the start" of MV's release I think MV would be #1 on Steam.

But yeah, the menu thing is really important. I am heading off to bed but how is the Menu thing handled in the old PS2 version and the new DS version? I'm foggy but I think you could move things around in the PS2 version, right?

 

[BubbleMatrix82]

@bgillisp
I'm a network administrator for a healthcare center and I make less than $50k. I don't know how an artist, musician, or small order cook programmer would make that much more than me for something so insignificant. No way man. Your numbers are inflated based on For-Profit Glassdoor Fortune 100 company values. Desperate artists, musicians, and programmers would do this for $10/hr full time or $20/hr part time. The point is, I estimate it to be probably $75k for everything if you pay people and not do my contest idea (which everyone else does).

As far as the subscription service, getting ~10,000 people to sign up might be tough without improving the install base. Take a look at the apps stats for LEGAL use here: https://steamspy.com/app/363890 but to bring it here for you stubborn folk that don't like to look at stuff here's what this product is up against:

Owners: 92,414 ± 8,633 2016-05-26
Players in the last 2 weeks: 17,934 ± 3,803 (19.41%)
Players total: 83,764 ± 8,219 (90.64%)
Followers: 40,996
Peak concurrent players yesterday: 807

How do we help Degica make this product higher adopted; especially at the $80 price tag of value and not the =<$40. And in the meantime, how do you get RMMV to rack in the dough so we can afford these updates?

Honestly, what needs to happen is we need Degica to do (a) A humble bundle again to raise capital and (b) A kickstarter to raise funds and improve market positioning with promised enhancements.

@taarna23
First thanks for joining in on the coversation, it's nice to see more community involvement from silent people. Being serious here.

As far as your reply, I am fully supportive of paying $80 for the engine, $20 per DLC packs, and $100/yr for a distribution package to get all the community resources sent to me for free (since it was going to be free on the forum for onlookers anyways. But I know for a fact that I don't represent the majority here. While I could afford the $80 Xray DLC for Gal*Gun on Steam, most people were scoffing at the price of it and saying it was only worth $5 and that the price should come down (so they can afford it - it had less to do with the DLC and more to do with their wallet).

I say that Degica needs to really try to break out of the "script kiddie games are junk" appeal and make it so even the most amateur of amateurs can play with this powerful engine to do some incredible things. And if Degica can't afford to do that, then what are they going to do for capital? How are they going to make the money to do this? Through DLC? If you do a search for Degica, they do more than just RMMV and RMVXA, and I bet those other things make them more money than RM does. And let's face it, who makes them the most money is who gets their attention. So either the community starts thinking of ways to help support their product, or they suffer the status quo and the improvement boards needs to be shut down since it is not open for discussion. Plain and simple.

As far as stealing, unless you registered yourself as as sole proprietor for a business and you watermark your stuff, everything on the internet is free and/or are grounds for following the terms of service that anything posted is property of the company you used to share it (hence why most people sell their games/content on their own site and not Steam or here). So basically, finders keepers losers weepers. But again, that's why you don't do that and instead run a contest; this would be seen as a surrender or quid pro quo (I'll give you an asset if you give me an entry into your contest). See, equivalent exchange based on community (not economic) value. Isn't this how churches get free labor too? "Go do a good deed at the soup kitchen and you will have an extra ticket in the raffle to go to Heaven in the afterlife". Same mind game, same outcome; someone got free labor (I'm an agnostic existentialist - fight me).

Anyways, I see worth in making some kind of business change. Especially since MV's updates seem to only be bug fixes. Unless all of you would rather wait for RPG Maker MV+ and pay another $40 to $80 the hard way...

EDIT:
I love how this post is getting "downvoted". Not because they wouldn't use it, but because they disprove of what is being said in the comments or how "ungrateful" we are being. Again, this voting process appears to be a game of politics and selfish desire, not a true Quality Assurance and Product Advisory Board. I propose the template for making a suggestion be changed for the voting to say "Yes" and "Yes but I wouldn't use it" with people being able to not vote as a "No".

 

[bgillisp]

$10/hour is not a livable salary in the US anymore, not without going on food stamps. Sorry, no one will take it. In my state alone that is below minimum wage. So forget it. Europe is the same, their minimum wage is higher than $10/hour in most countries. And a good artist or musician is going to want more than minimum.

Sure, they could hire the person who will do it for the bare minimum, but then would you get GOOD work? Or just what they can shove out? See, I was assuming you wanted good work, work you knew was of quality and worth the investment, not just who can we hire for x that will take the job. There is a huge difference.

And programmers, ha! You're not going to hire a programmer that is good and can write good programs fast for less than 6 digits, because, again, they can just go work for another company that will pay them that. I say this because I work for a college and they constantly lose anyone good they hire for programming just because they won't pay them that, so they quit and go somewhere where they will make the 6 digit figure

As it is, your $75k would hire 1 - 2 people tops. So now it would be do you want an artist, a musician, OR a programmer? People want DLC for all three, so whichever one you cut, that group will be upset. So $75k isn't going to cut it.

On another note...it honestly sounds to me like you don't value artists at all, by saying they should be making less than you make. Good luck ever hiring an artist for your game with an attitude like that. As it is, I feel like maybe this might be an interesting discussion to have in a year or so after you've tried to hire an artist or programmer for your game, as with what you suggest for rates, I can tell you what kind of response you will get:

Spoiler

 

[feckyeslife]

I love how this post is getting "downvoted". Not because they wouldn't use it, but because they disprove of what is being said in the comments or how "ungrateful" we are being. Again, this voting process appears to be a game of politics and selfish desire, not a true Quality Assurance and Product Advisory Board. I propose the template for making a suggestion be changed for the voting to say "Yes" and "Yes but I wouldn't use it" with people being able to not vote as a "No".

People vote no because, sure, they read through the comments and realize that they do not want to support the exploitation of artists. Or they don't care about the RTP style. Or they believe that it's not feasible and would rather not waste time debating it.

It's not some kind of conspiracy against your ideas. It's an opinion poll of "hey I don't want to support this." Because this is a suggestion board. If something gets a lot of support and also is feasible to implement, then it has a chance to be included. People have a vested interest to support things that will fit into what their projects are. It's an assumption that this suggestion would be more RTP styled content. Those who create or commission their own art styles are obviously also going to say "nah let's not put money into this, let's add different mechanics." There are dozens of reasons why people would vote no to a suggestion.

 

[RetroBoy]

I pay my artist, Ive never skimped out on anyone but its not fair to expect to make a living wage as a game artist if you're not working for a game studio. We're dealing with freelancing here. I am tight with my money because I know the value of a dollar and because if I run out of money and the project crashes, then I can't keep paying the artist. I am off the mind paying a dollar or two less so you can keep consistent work flow and consistent payment coming is better than paying nothing at all.

Plus, which is it?

Is this simple game design for hobbyists or are we all expected to have our own game studios and production companies?

 

[BubbleMatrix82]

$10/hour is not a livable salary in the US anymore, not without going on food stamps. Sorry, no one will take it. In my state alone that is below minimum wage. So forget it. Europe is the same, their minimum wage is higher than $10/hour in most countries. And a good artist or musician is going to want more than minimum.

Sure, they could hire the person who will do it for the bare minimum, but then would you get GOOD work? Or just what they can shove out? See, I was assuming you wanted good work, work you knew was of quality and worth the investment, not just who can we hire for x that will take the job. There is a huge difference.

And programmers, ha! You're not going to hire a programmer that is good and can write good programs fast for less than 6 digits, because, again, they can just go work for another company that will pay them that. I say this because I work for a college and they constantly lose anyone good they hire for programming just because they won't pay them that, so they quit and go somewhere where they will make the 6 digit figure

As it is, your $75k would hire 1 - 2 people tops. So now it would be do you want an artist, a musician, OR a programmer? People want DLC for all three, so whichever one you cut, that group will be upset. So $75k isn't going to cut it.

On another note...it honestly sounds to me like you don't value artists at all, by saying they should be making less than you make. Good luck ever hiring an artist for your game with an attitude like that. As it is, I feel like maybe this might be an interesting discussion to have in a year or so after you've tried to hire an artist or programmer for your game, as with what you suggest for rates, I can tell you what kind of response you will get:

Spoiler

It's not that I have any disdain or any lack of appreciation for art, it's that so many artists give stuff out for free that they ruin the market for people who do it to get paid. Deviant art, sound cloud, YouTube, fiverr, fictionpress, wattpad, and a bunch of other sites are free sources and none of their content is paid except by the host (like my contest). And a lot of it is good, if not great. But again, we are dealing with supply side economics here, not demand side. The demand isn't too great when there's already plenty that is affordable or free.

And as far as your pay rate is concerned, the devs are only making small fry plugins, not rebuilding the engine. Making a plugin to do a shower system is nothing compared to redoing the editor in JavaScript in the first place. And yes, many interns or spring chickens would take a low paying job for CV or resume experience. Is it good for the economy that they are this desperate? No, it drives the costs down for employers and wages even lower for future generations. But as people have said, what puts food on the table if this is your primary source of income. They don't call it starving artist for fun.

I still think the contest idea is the best.

People vote no because, sure, they read through the comments and realize that they do not want to support the exploitation of artists. Or they don't care about the RTP style. Or they believe that it's not feasible and would rather not waste time debating it.

It's not some kind of conspiracy against your ideas. It's an opinion poll of "hey I don't want to support this." Because this is a suggestion board. If something gets a lot of support and also is feasible to implement, then it has a chance to be included. People have a vested interest to support things that will fit into what their projects are. It's an assumption that this suggestion would be more RTP styled content. Those who create or commission their own art styles are obviously also going to say "nah let's not put money into this, let's add different mechanics." There are dozens of reasons why people would vote no to a suggestion.

If love to hear those reasons instead of opposition.

Also, not supporting an idea, any of them, seems stupid to me. I don't care how fiscally conservative any of you coders/elitists are, saying no to free stuff added to the engine to improve the editors value is dumb and only serves to protect the uniqueness of your game so it can sell better than everyone else's. In other words, a vote no is just someone kicking the ladder do a novice can't get the prestige or respect that a person who put over 100 hours into coding has. It's nothing more than another mind game to separate the community.

Be honest with yourself and answer this, should a RTP script kiddie's game sell more copies qnd gross more income than your professional games? If you answer no, then you are part of the problem. Creating policies to only allow people on the top to stay on the top. Your working class mentality of work hard not smart is the reason you vote no, and that's all.

 

[mlogan]

It would be really great if you could stop throwing around the word "political" here. No one is trying to be political, whatever that means. We are simply trying to say "Hey, based on our experience with things, this is why we think it won't work." And yep, we could be wrong. Degica could see the idea and say "That's brilliant! We need to do this right away." (I'd happily pay for a subscription if I'm wrong - I'm a huge resource collector, tons of stuff I'll probably never use, but I get it anyway, because it's fun to mess around with.)

You are free to offer up your ideas. We are free to disagree with them. And that is also why there is a poll added to these topics - to see what users of RM feel towards the idea. So, at this point, my personal opinion is that the arguing should stop (all around, not singling anyone out on it) and let the poll speak for itself.

 

[BubbleMatrix82]

It would be really great if you could stop throwing around the word "political" here. No one is trying to be political, whatever that means. We are simply trying to say "Hey, based on our experience with things, this is why we think it won't work." And yep, we could be wrong. Degica could see the idea and say "That's brilliant! We need to do this right away." (I'd happily pay for a subscription if I'm wrong - I'm a huge resource collector, tons of stuff I'll probably never use, but I get it anyway, because it's fun to mess around with.)

You are free to offer up your ideas. We are free to disagree with them. And that is also why there is a poll added to these topics - to see what users of RM feel towards the idea. So, at this point, my personal opinion is that the arguing should stop (all around, not singling anyone out on it) and let the poll speak for itself.

The poll is a joke since people confessed to saying no because they wouldn't use it. How does that represent the 80,000 users just because homeboy uses plugins or is a coder? I don't think people are voting like a business partner, they are only voting to correct their suffering. Again, they are treating it like a bug fixes, not an innovator. I'm pretty sure Degica is dedicated to bug fixing, this was about new features I thought. Obviously if people are weeks if not months into a project they are going to only vote on things that brings them closer to publishing their cash crop retirement funding game.

For a community, there sure are a lot of selfish individuals.