Bonus Assets (Routine Release) via DL Editor

[bgillisp]

I'm going to second mlogan here. Probably best we stop the intense debating as it is starting to get out of hand. And honestly, I don't know about the rest of you, but I need to work on making my game and not spend all my time on here.

@RetroBoy : Off topic, but it might help answer your question. I'll put it in spoilers as it is off topic.

Spoiler: How I paid for artists

What I did was I made the game first, using placeholder graphics. Just pick something and slap it everywhere for something you need to replace (I had a blob that I just put everywhere for the image that I needed to replace. Looked hideous enough that I knew when I saw it that I needed to replace it). Then, once I had enough of the game done, then I hired an artist to make all the pieces I needed for the game. This way I knew for sure the game was going to be done, and I wasn't just throwing my money away.

But, others may have different strategies. Why not start a discussion about it on another forum, and see how people handled getting the art they needed for their game?

 

[fusegu]

Can I vote for the current DLC system? Did you see the Heroine pack? Or what about those Japanese resources? Well worth the 9.99.

In terms of value - if you had hired your own private artist, you'd have paid well in excess of that.

And obviously if enough people bought them that kodakawa/degica made money off of it, that is a nod from community that says "give me more." So truly, if you want to put your money where your mouth is, you should by the better packs, even if you have no plans to use them JUST to vote for getting more great packs.

Now if we could get some MV style tileset variations....

 

[BubbleMatrix82]

Can I vote for the current DLC system? Did you see the Heroine pack? Or what about those Japanese resources? Well worth the 9.99.

In terms of value - if you had hired your own private artist, you'd have paid well in excess of that.

And obviously if enough people bought them that kodakawa/degica made money off of it, that is a nod from community that says "give me more." So truly, if you want to put your money where your mouth is, you should by the better packs, even if you have no plans to use them JUST to vote for getting more great packs.

Now if we could get some MV style tileset variations....

The problem with "preview before you buy" DLC is you are only going to buy the ones you want/need. And since most RMMV and RMVXA users are Socioeconomically challenged, they can't afford the DLC until it is pennies on the dollar; so instead they use the RTP. And those that aren't Socioeconomically challenged are going to hire someone to make the customized stuff they want (or do it themselves). The DLC has a low attachment rate because (for the most part) it is unnecessary or unaffordable. And it would be cheaper if Degica had other streams of income.

@Archeia
Sorry to involve you in all this but I wanted to ask you since you seem to be the dev overlooking the MV project - Can we make the next large DLC that comes out be a "Premium Plugins" DLC for newbies who are too intimidated to use plugins? Perhaps you can partner with someone in the community to make a few useful ones and see how that DLC goes at the $15 price point? I know it seems like a scam to charge for plugins, but if the reason everyone here can't get their way is because Degica is losing money on RMMV, then it needs some fundraising. And with 80k installments, I bet more than half of them don't even know that there's plugins to expand the game to be more than it is. The idea is, to offer better value than just art and music; don't cater to the coding crowd, cater to the storywriting crowd. Your thoughts?

 

[Celianna]

I was not suggesting hiring a big animation studio to make assets, rather hire one to three individuals full time with the express purpose of producing additional generator parts.

Hi there, I was working for Degica as an artist for M+ material and due to budget cuts, am not anymore. I wasn't even fulltime.

Basically, paying artists was too costly compared to their low profits.

The M+ was a failure, unfortunately, and I definitely do not see this returning anytime soon. Consistent bonus DLC (for free, hah!) would not be feasible for a company that has a small budget. No amount of arguing will change this.

Remember, they already tried. It failed, and that's the end of it.

The DLC has a low attachment rate because (for the most part) it is unnecessary or unaffordable.

Shows how much you know about it. Meaning, nothing. Please don't talk about the DLC when you know zero statistics about it.

 

[fusegu]

OMG I was just in the process of writing this; and I can't believe I'm agreeing with a mod on RMW:


How do you know the DLC has a low attachment rate? Are you inferring that from the sales numbers? Or Degica's profit and loss statements? Just wondering if you're talking out of some fictitious ego that makes you feel better, or if you had hard data?

And in what world is 9.99 unaffordable? Are you saying that most RM users are unable to work for 2 hours? Cuz atleast in the good ole' US that's actually less than an 1.5 hours of work. Hell the local high schooler charges 25 to mow my lawn. I think again you don't have hard data?

Also are you stating that of this "80k installments" that most of those RM users wouldn't find value in between custom and free? Because a 9.99 value is just - that. One sprite sheet would cost you in excess over 9.99 and you get far more value from the current DLC than that. So are you suggesting you have access to the 80k users brain and know what they find valueable? Or do you somehow have access to data that none of the rest of us have? Because if there is a way to see how many individual moments a DLC has been downloaded, I don't know it; It'd be cool data so please share if I'm mistaken.

I encourage you to be more data oriented rather than ego and anecdotal. .You're trying to convince veterans of the community to heed your suggestions, but you're giving them absolutely no credibility in the process.

 

[nio kasgami]

Anyways, as veteran and obviously freelance artist, i can tell that nope this not a good idea

Well not the idea is bad itself its would be nice i would get paid for make tons of ressourcesl. Yo this would pay my school debt lol

But the problem is where i would get paid but what about degica...degica would go bankrupt at the end especially if i charge 30~50 per assets or celianna example after they ask me to do 100 assets...this would cost them 5k bucks
How they repay their lost if they release it for free? They wouldnt lol

As peoples wants free stuff and all the rainbow...this not how life works lol
Peoples wants the munnies

 

[BubbleMatrix82]

Well, it appears that the starving artists are having existential stress over my idea of having 13 year olds to 18 year olds submitting FREE artwork to a contest so Degica can resell it, turn a profit over it, and only give them digital resources in exchange for their hard work. Guess what, it's legal, and it happens all the time, like artwork for TCG. So what happens when starving artists who don't understand what it takes to get a real art job starts to give up their art for free in exchange for some modest recognition? They make the artists who are making a modest living off of premium art go extinct because they were replaced with cheaper workers who may not do as good work but it is passable. And you know what, I know a bunch of teens at my kids high school that would do this just because it sounds fun and they get excited to see their work used in professional work (even if they weren't credited).

It's fine if Degica doesn't want to try to do the distribution idea mentioned here, but the only reason the company is a low budget company is because it's not good at fundraising. Fundraising takes donations from the high SES people or it takes selling premium products that the high SES fools are willing to pay for in exchange for capital to keep running the company. I think my plugin DLC idea could be that. So could my contest idea, only instead of doing it as a subscription service, do it as a "community DLC" pack on Steam. Either way, they are ways to raise capital and pay living wages for the devs and the executive teams who own the product.

Now, as far as art and generator parts, it looks like you either use the free resources available on the internet or you use RTP. The elites who control the Degica development time schedule don't want to make the product more accessible to people who have no "talents" or "essences". It is an elitist world after all; survival of the fittest.

In my case, I'm just going to pay everyone to make my game and take all the credit and profits. Is that any more fair than my idea of a contest and using free community uploads as DLC or a subsciprtion service? No. But when you have the money to blow, it's a completely legitimate strategy to compete with the elitists who thinks it takes hard work to make a living off of RMMV Steam games.

EDIT:
And as far as the DLC that exists right now, why would anyone buy packs for a game they don't plan on making? See, that's what I mean by bad DLC attachment rates. I bought every Borderlands, Civilization, Democracy 3, and I plan on buying all the Nep Nep DLC because they were relevant to my gaming experience. Why would someone buy a japanese pack if their game never visits japan or has japan actors/npcs in it? See, pointless.

EDIT2: 16 downvotes is just funny. This isn't a bad idea, you just have motives to not let such a feature exist.

 

[Kes]

Can we make the next large DLC that comes out be a "Premium Plugins" DLC for newbies who are too intimidated to use plugins?

Can no one else see the contradiction in the request to have a plugins dlc for people who are too intimidated to use plugins?

However, on a more serious note.

compete with the elitists who thinks it takes hard work to make a living off of RMMV Steam games.

Making a game is hard work. That is not an elitist statement, it is a straightforward factual one. Doing anything worthwhile which involves creativity is hard work - and I'm not talking about artistic creativity in the narrow sense, but the creativity needed to come up with e.g. a good skill scheme, interesting enemies, a compelling story line with characters which are not cardboard cut outs. And then there is the sheer hard work of actually doing stuff - mapping, eventing, database work, play testing again and again to get your balancing right etc. etc.

Sure you could, as you say, pay other people to do it all for you. I will be following your project development thread with some interest.

 

[nio kasgami]

Okay first hand can you stop using word such elitist?

Obviously you also seem to forget that its because of the hardwork of the supposevly starving artist that you can have assets for your punny game.

Most peoples here or mostly all the veteran are peoples who work their butt off for make rpg maker a awesome software. And most of them do it in their free times or are not even paid like most of the programmer for the oss corescript.

We used to make free release each month and what we got? Complain complain and complain of entitled peoples who thought that we was their slave or their asset b*tch and was asking for the impossible. So we stopped to do it because allthe artist got tired of it. Most of us where you argue with are peoples with a unconditionnal love for rm...we worked a lots for make what rm is today. So

No we wont make a stupid community pack where peoples will only complain about because yes with their ego they think everything should be free and giveb to them in a stupid rotten silver spoon

 

[BubbleMatrix82]

Can no one else see the contradiction in the request to have a plugins dlc for people who are too intimidated to use plugins?

However, on a more serious note.

Making a game is hard work. That is not an elitist statement, it is a straightforward factual one. Doing anything worthwhile which involves creativity is hard work - and I'm not talking about artistic creativity in the narrow sense, but the creativity needed to come up with e.g. a good skill scheme, interesting enemies, a compelling story line with characters which are not cardboard cut outs. And then there is the sheer hard work of actually doing stuff - mapping, eventing, database work, play testing again and again to get your balancing right etc. etc.

Sure you could, as you say, pay other people to do it all for you. I will be following your project development thread with some interest.

Take a look at the apps stats for LEGAL use here: https://steamspy.com/app/363890 but to bring it here for you stubborn folk that don't like to look at stuff here's what this product is up against:

Owners: 92,414 ± 8,633 2016-05-26
Players in the last 2 weeks: 17,934 ± 3,803 (19.41%)
Players total: 83,764 ± 8,219 (90.64%)
Followers: 40,996
Peak concurrent players yesterday: 807

You may have missed the above but this is kind of a big deal. Over 92,000 people own the product, 83,000 have opened the app, only 807 people used the app yesterday, only 18,000 (of 83,000) have used it in the last 2 weeks. By the numbers I listed here, there's a reason people aren't using their product. It's either because they have accepted that they lack the skills to make a game or they have better things to do with their time. We can't help the latter, but we can help the former.

Take the greed away for just a minute folks. We actually want these numbers to go up. The more people there are to sell to, the more likely the price of DLC will go down without Degica taking a loss. We also want more capital in the Degica pool so they can improve the engine/editor without taking away from great ideas (like a community distribution platform like what was suggested in this thread). So I know you all are looking at your game projects and just looking for cheap/affordable/free ways to make your product so you can make your first $$$Million$$$ but the point is, if the company is so low budget that they can't afford to make improvements to the game, then maybe we should be thinking of ways to make that "92,414 owners" exceed 150,000? I mean, Steam has over 125 million active users, 8.9M concurrent peak, that means that RPG Maker has such little marketshare value that we can never expect this product to do well when stacked against other game makers. There's just not enough cash flow!

So while most of you fight me over morals and what's a rip off, it would be nice if people considered ways to improve the engine's install base so you all can micro-economic more people into hiring you for music, art, programming and other things that keep you alive. See win/win! Make more money for Degica by growing the community to more than just the niche on here and you have more clients who will hire you for your work!

EDIT:
If no one here wants to contribute to community DLC packs but Degica decides to go forward with it, they will just be left behind. That's what "evolve or die" means in the world of capitalism. You either evolve where the market is going, or you find a new market to keep up with.

Side Note: I'm working on a TCG right now but I'll be hiring people for a game soon. You'd be surprised how easy it is to find affordable, cheap labor. Fiverr, freelancer, craigslist, contests like I mentioned above, and even giving out free demos of the game so people can beta test for you for free. Honestly, 13 to 18 year olds will do anything for free if you make it look fun. I suggest everyone look into gamification and in how "popularity and prestige" works; it's completely legal since there's nothing illegal about asking for volunteers and interns. Welcome to modern day voluntary slavery through the disguise of resume building.

 

[fusegu]

Please... as the unapologetic anarcho capitalist in the room... PLEASE PLEASE don't let this guy represent us.

 

[Sharm]

It's not that people aren't aware. We're very aware. We also know a lot of other things about using this kind of labor that make it unusable for this suggestion. I'm looking forward to seeing how you react when you find out the other things that always happen when you go for the cheap and naive artists. Hint: Cheap, Good, On time. You can only have two.

 

[BubbleMatrix82]

"Good, Cheap, On Time" -- I'd pick the first two. Life is a marathon, not a race. If it takes me 3 years to publish a game because I was working around people's schedule, works for me. People who make RPG Maker their main source of income (when I was told this is a hobbyist engine) is actually part of the problem. Degica can't make the product better for the masses (everyone, including the people who don't go to forums) if the people in the forums are leeching on Degica to make a modest living off of Degica's crappy resource availability... So yes, I think a free community distribution is a good solution to get more RM purchasers and daily users. We absolutely MUST make the engine more usable for people who have no coding and no art skills; otherwise this product will die due to rising development costs. It absolutely MUST increase its install base or else suffer a fate much like the Dreamcast, the VirtualBoy, the Game Gear, the Phillips CD-I, and the Wii U; have the low installment numbers hurt your critical mass efforts to capitalize on the product.

How do we do that? Well, for starters, we can create start talking about why the numbers are low and start brainstorming on how we can increase them. I mean, only 18k users out of 83k users used the product in 2 weeks. How do we make 1/2 of those people come back? What do we update to the engine/editor to make it easier to make a person's dreams come true? What do we have to give up for free to make it worth opening and using the app?

 

[mlogan]

You know what? If so easy, do it. You're free to start your own RM based forum/website. Have at it. Recruit those talented people to work for free to produce high quality resources month after month after month. Ask for reviews to see what people think of the quality and content. Swindle the artists into letting you sell it so you can make profit while they don't. And then let us know how it goes.

 

[Celianna]

I think it's a little adorable how he wants to exploit artists who are between the ages of 13-18.

Yes, that's totally the plan, let's run with it! Let us exploit artists for the sake of free resources!!!

There's an analogy in there somewhere about using cheap child labour.

 

[Ratty524]

BubbleMatrix the fact that you posted this on a forum filled with some of the best artists and creators the RM community has to offer, I sincerely hope your reputation doesn't get thrown down the gutter for spewing this idealistic drivel.

Actually nah, I do. Destroy capitalism.

 

[fusegu]

Gods it happened. #notMyCapitalism

 

[Kes]

I mean, only 18k users out of 83k users used the product in 2 weeks.

Unsubstantiated assertion. You can have no idea when I use any engine which I own, because I never, ever use them in the on line Steam version. This will hold true for many, many others. So by definition you cannot state how many actual users there are. Please do not throw baseless figures around as a way of bolstering your argument, it only serves to weaken it.

 

[Celianna]

Unsubstantiated assertion. You can have no idea when I use any engine which I own, because I never, ever use them in the on line Steam version. This will hold true for many, many others. So by definition you cannot state how many actual users there are. Please do not throw baseless figures around as a way of bolstering your argument, it only serves to weaken it.

Plus, some people do work on their project outside of MV (art, writing, coding etc.). I've had months where I didn't touch an RPG Maker program, but I was still actively involved with RM.

 

[Sharm]

Ah, I see where the disconnect is. A smaller business model is not a failed business model. Some ideas and markets do not scale and to run a business you have to be prepared to work with that. RM is not meant to compete with Unity or the other high end engines. It's meant to be an in-between engine. The userbase is very large for the type of market RM is meant for, trying to capture a new market means leaving behind the one they have to compete with others who've already claimed all the users. Doing that, chasing an unlikely revenue stream in the hopes of being just like other engines, that's bad business. That may seem safe and boring to you and that's fine. RM probably isn't the engine for you. That's why it's good to have choice. I personally like the choice of a hobby engine. The other hobby engines I know of are even more restrictive or unfinished or difficult to use or all of the above.