[Bug] Editor regression regarding format support

RyanBram

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Dear RPG Maker,

There is a bug that I want to report here before posting it in the official Bug Report thread.

In previous RPG Maker (especially ACE), the RPG Maker editor could select any formats even though they wasn't officially supported. For example, RPG Maker VX Ace only supporting OGG, MP3, WAV, and MIDI for music format. But if I put an AAC music inside BGM folder of my project, ACE still allow me to select it as game BGM. Yeah, the engine still cannot play it, but it can be fixed by creating script or dll wrapper for supporting AAC playback. This means someone can extend the engine to support more format which wasn't officially supported by RPG Maker.

In RPG Maker MV, the editor seems only support selecting file format which officially supported by RPG Maker MV. So if I put a WEBP file inside faces folder, the editor doesn't allow me to select it as my character faces. I am trying to trick the editor by renaming the WEBP file as PNG, so it become Actor1.webp.png and it works. The editor allow me to choose the WEBP file because it suppose the file as PNG which actually it just a renamed WEBP file. I have tried to test the game and it work flawlessly which indicate that the engine is actually support the WEBP format.

My request is:

As a cross platform game engine with a lot of potential, please give the editor an ability to choose any format other than the officially supported. I need this feature, because I want to extend the engine to support WEBP as image and MIDI as audio.

Regards,

RyanBram
 

Zalerinian

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I know it's not a good solution really, but you can just rename the while file to Actor1.png instead of Actor1.webp.png.

The game supports any files that the Chrome web browser could at version 41. The desktop clients run on Node.js which uses the basis of the chrome browser, the open source Chromium project, as it's base. This gives the games a large variety of files that are technically supported. However, you have to remember that the engine has picked and chosen it's file formats to make sure that they run on all the supported platforms. I can't test it myself right now, but does iOS support the webp format? The reason we need m4a format audio for mobile exports is because Apple has refused to support the open OGG format for years, and thus we now need to use m4a to get sound to work on iOS.
 

KisaiTenshi

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This is probably not a recommended course of action. Webp will only be supported by the Node-webkit builds, and not running straight on the web browser.

As for MIDI... trust me you are not extending it to support midi. At worst, you'll get some poor sounding MIDI on MacOS X and Windows in the web browser, and nothing on the mobile devices. There is some capacity to create a soft-synth, but you're effectively making a FM synth.
 

RyanBram

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Hi, Zelirinian.
Thanks for responsing my report.

I know it's not a good solution really, but you can just rename the while file to Actor1.png instead of Actor1.webp.png.
I did it just to make it easy to distinguish between true PNG and renamed WEBP. I will take a risk by not supporting every platform for my game, but at least I hope the editor "just allow" me to choose unofficial supported format which feature was present in previous maker (Ace). Please help me to tell this issue to the developer if there are upcoming update for the editor. Because the format selection for MV is too little (even JPG and GIF are not supported).
 

This is probably not a recommended course of action. Webp will only be supported by the Node-webkit builds, and not running straight on the web browser.
 
As for MIDI... trust me you are not extending it to support midi. At worst, you'll get some poor sounding MIDI on MacOS X and Windows in the web browser, and nothing on the mobile devices. There is some capacity to create a soft-synth, but you're effectively making a FM synth.
Hi, KisaiTenshim

Maybe WEBP is just my personal preference, but how about someone who want to use JPG? The current editor doesn't allow user to choose format other than supported format (PNG).

About MIDI, I am not talking about MIDI by itself. I want to extend the engine by supporting MIDI + Soundfont which will sounds similar in no matter which device is playing it. Soundfont (SF2) is a font for music, just like TrueTypeFont (TTF) for letter. 
 
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Zalerinian

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Maybe WEBP is just my personal preference, but how about someone who want to use JPG? The current editor doesn't allow user to choose format other than supported format (PNG).
Jpeg is a bad idea, and that's why it's not supported. JPG has no transparency and is lossy, so it would be a very bad choice for a game.
 

RyanBram

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Jpeg is a bad idea, and that's why it's not supported. JPG has no transparency and is lossy, so it would be a very bad choice for a game.
It wasn't bad at all if you want to create non transparent image, such as Parallax mapping, Battle background, Scene picture, etc. Yeah it is lossy, but it wasn't noticeable unless you compress it too high. But it still a bandwidth saver.
 

KisaiTenshi

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Hi, KisaiTenshim

Maybe WEBP is just my personal preference, but how about someone who want to use JPG? The current editor doesn't allow user to choose format other than supported format (PNG).

About MIDI, I am not talking about MIDI by itself. I want to extend the engine by supporting MIDI + Soundfont which will sounds similar in no matter which device is playing it. Soundfont (SF2) is a font for music, just like TrueTypeFont (TTF) for letter. 
WEBP is kinda pointless, as it's only supported by Chrome.

As for MIDI... you can't add it. All development on softsynths has been dead for 3 or more years. Fluidsynth or TiMIDIty is used in DosBOX to emulate a GM Midi device, but MIDI has been removed from VLC since 2.1 on Windows. Hence consider MIDI support to be unusable.
 

Tsukihime

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Jpeg is a bad idea, and that's why it's not supported. JPG has no transparency and is lossy, so it would be a very bad choice for a game.
I don't really see a problem with lossy images.


Just look at the special backgrounds that came with the bonus resources.


You wouldn't use lossy encoding for images that require transparency, but those also tend to be quite smaller in comparison.
 
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RyanBram

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WEBP is kinda pointless, as it's only supported by Chrome.

As for MIDI... you can't add it. All development on softsynths has been dead for 3 or more years. Fluidsynth or TiMIDIty is used in DosBOX to emulate a GM Midi device, but MIDI has been removed from VLC since 2.1 on Windows. Hence consider MIDI support to be unusable.
I don't know why everything I heard from you always words like pointless, unusable, etc.

If someone want to add format support just let him add it. This is my business to deploy my game only for Windows, Android, or Chrome based browser. In the past many people create web content which only supported by Adobe Flash and nothing wrong with it. I just prefer to make my distribution smaller for Mobile and Web by using lossy format instead of lossless format as PNG.

MIDI is not dead yet and you have insulted people who dedicated their time to composing music in it. Look this Sourceforge page, and you'll see that the last commit is still in 2015. Beside Fluidsynth and Timidity, there is new MIDI synthesizer called WildMIDI which still in active development.

Back to topic:

My intention is not for asking WEBP or MIDI support in the engine. I am just requesting that the editor should support "any format" selection which feature was present in VX Ace. Therefore it will be easier for people to extend the engine for supporting format which are not officially supported by MV. They are not just WEBP or MIDI, they are BPG, JPG, GIF, FLAC, Impulse Tracker, Fast Tracker (the later two is MIDI-like format, but containing audio files) and many other format which have their own pros and cons.  

Thanks 
 
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KisaiTenshi

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I don't know why everything I heard from you always words like pointless, unusable, etc.

If someone want to add format support just let him add it. This is my business to deploy my game only for Windows, Android, or Chrome based browser. In the past many people create web content which only supported by Adobe Flash and nothing wrong with it. I just prefer to make my distribution smaller for Mobile and Web by using lossy format instead of lossless format as PNG.

MIDI is not dead yet and you have insulted people who dedicated their time to composing music in it. Look this Sourceforge page, and you'll see that the last commit is still in 2015. Beside Fluidsynth and Timidity, there is new MIDI synthesizer called WildMIDI which still in active development.

Back to topic:

My intention is not for asking WEBP or MIDI support in the engine. I am just requesting that the editor should support "any format" selection which feature was present in VX Ace. Therefore it will be easier for people to extend the engine for supporting format which are not officially supported by MV. They are not just WEBP or MIDI, they are BPG, JPG, GIF, FLAC, Impulse Tracker, Fast Tracker (the later two is MIDI-like format, but containing audio files) and many other format which have their own pros and cons.  

Thanks 
You're reading into something I'm not even saying. I'm saying your "bug" is actually a feature to prevent users from building broken games.

WEBP: The Manual says "All images will use the PNG format."  All the game engine is doing is filtering by PNG so that the user doesn't select files that won't work. That's it. Since only PNG is supported, there is no point in allowing anything else to be selected otherwise users will ask why did they even let them select it in the first place. WEBP is not a W3C standard. It's not any standard, it's a Google proprietary format. I'm not sure why anyone would want to use a YUV 4:2:0 lossy format in a game, but that's not relevant to this discussion.

MIDI: Did I say MIDI was dead? No. I said soft-synths libraries are dead, as none of them are in active development, all are legally encumbered (all GPL, which means you won't be seeing them in Web browsers), and the requirements to use them on a mobile device wouldn't make sense (do you really want to distribute a 128MB sound font? Are you legally allowed to distribute it? Which devices will have the required RAM to use it?) Sure you may have smaller MIDI files, but the supporting soundbanks are always larger than the music that gets used.

To play a game, I should need to do nothing more than double click on the icon for the game. If you don't know how to compile a custom version of node-webkit with midi and a softsynth built into it, then you shouldn't even be having this discussion, because you can't make it work anyway. Export the tracks you want to use as M4A/OGG and bring this up again once WebMIDI is an official W3C standard. The RPG Maker developers are using pretty much a stock version of node-webkit.
 

RyanBram

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It seems that you speak to me like I didn't understand what I said.

Broken games?

Node.js and every javascript libraries used by MV is opensource and subject of change. Some format may not supported, but in the future who knows that those libraries will support more format which make MV looks obselete by supporting only particular format. By allowing the editor to choose any format, it will make adding more format support far easier. I am asking this, because this feature is NOT something new. Ace HAS this feature.

There is nothing can prevent someone to create broken games as the editor itself doesn't prevent someone to edit javascript outside it. Even for importing resource someone should do it manually which make possibility to doing mistake even bigger.

This is not your bussiness to question someone who prefer an format over others. But for me, I prefer WEBP, because it has the following big advantage:

1. Lossless compression which mean it also has PNG feature, but with smaller file size. (Please read the specification again if you though WEBP is only lossy format)

2. Lossy compression with alpha channel which mean I not only get the advantage of JPG's small size, but also PNG's transparency

3. Animation support which mean I also get the advantage of GIF, but not limited to only 256 pallete.

4. WEBP is just a static version of WEBM, so if MV supporting WEBM there is no reason for me to leaving WEBP.

5. Node Webkit is based on Google work, Android also, so not usinh WEBP just because it isn't standart is doesn't make any sense. (M4A, MP4 aren't standard either)

Now about MIDI. Sorry if I misunderstand you about saying MIDI is dead. But still I need to remind you that Fluidsynth and WildMIDI is not GPL and both of them still in active development, please read their license carefully before saying false news to public. There is public domain soundfont created by Kenneth Rundt which is only 3 MB in size, so who needs hundreds of MB soundfont? Musescore also extending SF2 format into SF3 which means soundfont will become smaller as SF3 is basically an SF2 compressed with OGG Vorbis.

Apart from those WEBP and MIDI controversy, it seems that I need to say it again once more that I don't care if those format won't be supported. I just want the editor to recognize any file that I put in resource folder. This is not a new feature, because Ace editor also has it.

Regards.
 

KisaiTenshi

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It seems that you speak to me like I didn't understand what I said.

Broken games?

Node.js and every javascript libraries used by MV is opensource and subject of change. Some format may not supported, but in the future who knows that those libraries will support more format which make MV looks obselete by supporting only particular format. By allowing the editor to choose any format, it will make adding more format support far easier. I am asking this, because this feature is NOT something new. Ace HAS this feature.

There is nothing can prevent someone to create broken games as the editor itself doesn't prevent someone to edit javascript outside it. Even for importing resource someone should do it manually which make possibility to doing mistake even bigger.

This is not your bussiness to question someone who prefer an format over others. But for me, I prefer WEBP, because it has the following big advantage:

1. Lossless compression which mean it also has PNG feature, but with smaller file size. (Please read the specification again if you though WEBP is only lossy format)

2. Lossy compression with alpha channel which mean I not only get the advantage of JPG's small size, but also PNG's transparency

3. Animation support which mean I also get the advantage of GIF, but not limited to only 256 pallete.

4. WEBP is just a static version of WEBM, so if MV supporting WEBM there is no reason for me to leaving WEBP.

5. Node Webkit is based on Google work, Android also, so not usinh WEBP just because it isn't standart is doesn't make any sense. (M4A, MP4 aren't standard either)

Now about MIDI. Sorry if I misunderstand you about saying MIDI is dead. But still I need to remind you that Fluidsynth and WildMIDI is not GPL and both of them still in active development, please read their license carefully before saying false news to public. There is public domain soundfont created by Kenneth Rundt which is only 3 MB in size, so who needs hundreds of MB soundfont? Musescore also extending SF2 format into SF3 which means soundfont will become smaller as SF3 is basically an SF2 compressed with OGG Vorbis.

Apart from those WEBP and MIDI controversy, it seems that I need to say it again once more that I don't care if those format won't be supported. I just want the editor to recognize any file that I put in resource folder. This is not a new feature, because Ace editor also has it.

Regards.
You just don't want to let this go.

You are actively asking the RPG Maker MV developer to make the editor support something that will lead to broken games being deployed.

It doesn't matter what benefit or drawback WEBP is, it's not supported outside of Chrome, therefor should not be supported in the editor.

And 3 "Animation" No. Just stop there. The DOM does not expose individual frames of animation, you would never be able to use WebP this way. Pixi.js treats images as images and video as video.

VP9 is only supported in a WEBM container(derived from the mkv container that pirates are fond of, which was itself derived from microsoft's AVI.) h.264 is only supported in a Mpeg4 part 14 container "mp4", it sure is a standard. The reason developers even care is that h.264 is the standard, and since it's patent-encumbered it has the same political licence nonsense that encumbered GIF with the LZW algorithm. The patents around h.264 do not expire until 2027. Yet you likely already have a license to use h.264 since the operating system or video card has a decoder for it. There is almost no such hardware decoders for VP9. Even on hardware that runs Android. 

As for MIDI: Do you really want to distribute a MIDI with a 3MB soundbank? Yuck. I remember the days of early wavetable hardware and while it was very much an improvement over the FM synths, they still never sound consistent from device to device. Hence why I keep referring back to soft-synths. You are far better off just releasing the music as ogg/aac(m4a)

RPG Maker MV is designed for amateurs, and what happens with amateurs is that they make mistakes. If the software is marketed as "Supporting iOS, Android, Windows, and MacOS X" that means it can't, and shouldn't support the use of files that aren't guaranteed to work on all platforms. As I've repeatedly said. WebP and WebM do not work on all platforms. PNG and h.264 (MP4) works on all platforms. 

 

A convenience feature here would lead to people deploying games that do not work for everyone, including the HTML5 web browsers if it's published on a website.
 

RyanBram

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You are actively asking the RPG Maker MV developer to make the editor support something that will lead to broken games being deployed.
Oh yeah? What platform will be broken if I want to import JPG as parallax map? Please note that the point of my request is not just asking about WebP and MIDI support, but also for returning support for other universal format which originally not supported by editor.

It doesn't matter what benefit or drawback WEBP is, it's not supported outside of Chrome, therefor should not be supported in the editor.
Then which format in RPG Maker MV other than PNG that universally supported by every platform? OGG? WebM? Nothing. MV still needs to provide more than one format to support every platform, so ignoring other format just because it only supported by particular browser is doesn't make a sense. Chrome is cross platform and used by most of web user. Nodewebkit itself is also based on Chrome. So at least it will work on both Windows and Android just like OGG and WebM.

VP9 is only supported in a WEBM container(derived from the mkv container that pirates are fond of, which was itself derived from microsoft's AVI.) h.264 is only supported in a Mpeg4 part 14 container "mp4", it sure is a standard. The reason developers even care is that h.264 is the standard, and since it's patent-encumbered it has the same political licence nonsense that encumbered GIF with the LZW algorithm. The patents around h.264 do not expire until 2027. Yet you likely already have a license to use h.264 since the operating system or video card has a decoder for it. There is almost no such hardware decoders for VP9. Even on hardware that runs Android.
Are we ever talking about VP9? No, we are talking about WebM. WebM can also contain VP8 which already supported by most Android hardware.

As for MIDI: Do you really want to distribute a MIDI with a 3MB soundbank? Yuck. I remember the days of early wavetable hardware and while it was very much an improvement over the FM synths, they still never sound consistent from device to device. Hence why I keep referring back to soft-synths. You are far better off just releasing the music as ogg/aac(m4a)
Yuck?

Did you really understand what you just said? 3 MB of soundfont doesn't mean it sounds worse than hundreds of megabyte soundfonts. It looks like you don't truly understand how MIDI works. Most of MIDI files don't really use all of sound bank in a hundreds of megabyte soundfont. If you compose the MIDI file by yourself, you can decide which soundbank you don't really need and remove it from the soundfont. This will greatly reduce the size of soundfont as you don't need to ship unused soundbank with your application. This is why most of Playstation game can fit in a single CD, because the creator compose the musics in MIDI-like format and ship them along with the soundfont.

Thanks for the suggestion, but as this is not your business to decide which sound bank I want to use I don't really care. Even If I don't want to use MIDI, I'll prefer to use module format such as Impulse Tracker or Fast tracker as alternative, instead of M4A. Before you said they aren't cross platform supported, at least Unity3D supporting them even though the engine also work cross platform

RPG Maker MV is designed for amateurs, and what happens with amateurs is that they make mistakes. If the software is marketed as "Supporting iOS, Android, Windows, and MacOS X" that means it can't, and shouldn't support the use of files that aren't guaranteed to work on all platforms. As I've repeatedly said. WebP and WebM do not work on all platforms. PNG and h.264 (MP4) works on all platforms.
Yeah, no wonder that you can make a mistake by saying MV shouldn't support the use of files that aren't guaranteed to work on all platforms. Because in fact that WebM and OGG which are not crossplatform was supported by MV, while JPG which work universally wasn't.

A convenience feature here would lead to people deploying games that do not work for everyone, including the HTML5 web browsers if it's published on a website.
Crossplatform support is not the only great things that come with MV. For me the most important is Javascript and no hidden class which will lead to greater flexibility. If there is no automatic way to export games to every platform supported by MV, even Enterbrain cannot guarantee that every user can produce valid iOS or Android game.

Many thing in RPG making process can lead to broken game (script or plugin customization, arranging sprite sheet or tileset, creating looped BGM, etc). This is beyond the scope of RPG Maker and of course this is up to user to carefully design their game. If RPG Maker said it only suport PNG, so be it. But if I want to use WebP for my game, it is my choice to take the risk for choosing unsupported format.

This is the last time I will said that I need the editor to be more flexible by allowing user to select unsupported format like the previous RPG Maker. I can extend RPG Maker engine by plugin, but as most of the editing will be done by the editor which is I cannot modify then the only way to extend the editor capability is by asking the author to support it in future patch. If there is no answer for this, then I can just did my previous approach by renaming the extension of unsupported format to extension which supported by MV.

Regards,

Ryan
 
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