Bullet-proof heroes, swords and rocket launchers.

Lars Ulrika

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So , here it is. I guess everyone remembers the first fight in FF7 where you take machinegun bullets in the face and the party almost goes like "oh it tickles!". 

Personally I don't mind it as I don't expect rpgs to be realistic but I would like to know what you think about those "hybrid" settings where swords can beat heavy tanks with incredible firepower? 

Do the fact that usually magic enters the equation explains it fair enough? 
 

ThatMaestroGuy

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I like my tech over I like my magic...especially in the case of magic weapons. Can magic beat a tank? Yes. Can a magical sword slice through a tank? Yes, but it had better be a ridiculous end-game kind of sword. Having a sword towards the beginning of the game that can slash through a tank in one strike is kinda bogus to me.
 

Mouser

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If you're going to have tanks in your game, the player has to be able to defeat them (unless it's some plot moving battle).

Realistically, you get shot; you die. Game Over. That doesn't make for very entertaining RPG's though...
 

ShadowLurk

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If a magic sword can defeat a tank, a magic tank would be far more deadly....

I personally does not like the those moments, especially when it is just for "coolness". It is fine if they can explain it well, like for example when magic is exclusive to those who knows, it is bad when they left nothing for the player to make sense of it.

If they can enchant a sword to such degree, why not enchant a tank? Especially in a magic-rich setting like Final Fantasy....
 

Dalph

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The answer to your question is simple: Wild Arms

Best Rpg series ever, those games mix perfectly a medieval\wild west\sci-fi setting...you have villages, swords, metal demons, golems, machine guns and bazookas, technologically advanced colonies (like Malduke), ecc...

The series is absolutely brillant and can vaunt a perfect Hybrid Rpg setting.

I say to go for it!

If you know how to implement well all the ideas, you'll have nothing to worry.
 
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Probotector 200X

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Nowadays in video games and anime especially, when I see someone with a sword vs someone with a gun or a tank, I realize who has the advantage. The person with the sword.

I try and mix stuff, it's fun!

I usually don't make magic and technology working together too much. Like, I want robots to stand out, so they can't use magic. But...oh, magic using robots are cool! An enchanted tank that fires magic rounds would be kinda rad.
 

Kyutaru

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The generic response here is that heroes have a forcefield.  Whether it's called chakra, spirit force, nen, or magic, it's as bulletproof as they come until they get tired.  So they can survive impacts that would devastate mountains, sword swings that can cut through planets, explosions equivalent to atom bombs, and you think a machine gun is going to do more than tickle them?
 

Alexander Amnell

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I don't mind magic or scifi but I really don't like to mix both that often for one simple reason. Say magic does exist, and we have the ability to blow **** up with our minds that has the potential to greatly exceed that of a tank gun with control to exceed a guided missile by doing nothing but strenuously training our minds then why the hell would technology evolve along the same lines as it has in real life to begin with? It would stand to reason that from the point said magic is introduced, the development of the world would become quickly and vastly different than that of ours and the pursuit of modern warfare methods would be mostly obsolete due to the cheaper and already known weapon of magic to create a devastating weapon out of nothing. It's ok for techs and magic to intersect but I feel that there should be at least a little thought put into the purpose behind the existance of such technology in a world where magic is clearly superior in the first place. If a sword can be imbued by mental powers by the wielder to compete with and overpower a tank then what purpose does the invention of the tank serve in the first place?
 
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Deep Thought

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I might be in the minority here, but I'm skeptical of genre fusions. High fantasy and science fiction, in my mind, don't mix well without one degrading the other. Too much science, and the magic loses its charm; too much fantasy, and science makes no sense or is completely irrelevant. It can be done (cf. Dungeons and Dragons' Eberron setting), but it's difficult to do well.

Of course, this only covers the mixing of two types of speculative fiction (fantasy and science fiction); some genre fusions are easier than others. Horror works well with just about anything.
 

Lars Ulrika

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I don't mind magic or scifi but I really don't like to mix both that often for one simple reason. Say magic does exist, and we have the ability to blow **** up with our minds that has the potential to greatly exceed that of a tank gun with control to exceed a guided missile by doing nothing but strenuously training our minds then why the hell would technology evolve along the same lines as it has in real life to begin with? It would stand to reason that from the point said magic is introduced, the development of the world would become quickly and vastly different than that of ours and the pursuit of modern warfare methods would be mostly obsolete due to the cheaper and already known weapon of magic to create a devastating weapon out of nothing. It's ok for techs and magic to intersect but I feel that there should be at least a little thought put into the purpose behind the existance of such technology in a world where magic is clearly superior in the first place. If a sword can be imbued by mental powers by the wielder to compete with and overpower a tank then what purpose does the invention of the tank serve in the first place?
That is quite simple : mastering a martial art to make it deadly requires lots of effort and here the same goes for magic. Between waiting to train 10 years to master the ultimate flaring blaze of doom and buying a napalm canon, many governments (and gangs, mercenaries etc) have made their choice, mainly due to the lack of soldiers mastering magic well enough to become a threat to another army full of tanks, bombers etc. Also , magic power can be depleted quick while getting a full supply of ammunition is much less difficult if you have the right budget. 

Also, in my settings ,scientists recently discovered a way to create "synthetic magic" through an implant that you connect to specially designed weapons, allowing you to create special magic bullet types without any kind of training. Though this is not yet applied on heavy weaponry...not yet. 

It will be quite common to meet people with weak magic power but usually if they're rich, they will rely on technology rather than going through the hassle of tough training and battles to be able to master telepathy instead of using a cell phone. Magic is something that is around since the beginning of this world so in this place it's the recent quick technological development that is considered extraordinary and "magic" in some way. Magic is feared still but people will consider you "uncool" if you rely on magic when you can buy the latest house equipment and weaponry. 

Regarding what is superior to what I would say : megaton nuclear bomb = best destructive magic spell. For the rest it's pretty much at the same dangerosity level, especially since this "synthetic magic" technology has been discovered. 
 
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SLEEP

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Bullets are tiny. The buster sword is small-phallis-compensatingly hueg. Obviously the bigger thing is stronger. :rock-right:
 

Eschaton

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I opened a tab for this forum just to make this thread, but it was ninja'd.

Okay, firearms in fantasy RPGs...

Well, let's start with firearms in real life compared to melee weapons.  First off, nobody in their right mind takes a sword to a firefight.  Firarms have more range and lethality compared to swinging a sword.  True a sword could cleave you in two, but only if you can get close enough to the other guy to do so.  Meanwhile, you're shooting him.  Gun beats sword just about every time.  J.K. Rowling herself said gun beats magic, too.

Now back to RPGs.  I was always bothered by the "ranged isn't as effective as melee" trope, but it's something of a necessary weasel.  It's a balancing issue.

If swords hit as hard as bullets, then bullets still have an advantage.

What I've noticed are two usual methods of balance:

1.  Make guns weak, which makes them useless compared to melee

2.  Make guns rare, which makes them too awesome to use

As for the range issue in turn-based RPGs... I got nothing.  In games like Final Fantasy, in which range isn't an issue, swords hit harder than bullets because Japan.
 

Kyutaru

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Bullets have initiative and critical bonuses while relying on Agility for damage calculation.  Swords are slower, hit for more normal damage and rely on Strength.  You can potentially crit for more damage with a sword but crits are rarer.  Truly, a sword does more lethal damage than a bullet can, bullets are just easier to hit with.

People overestimate the lethality of bullets.  Most guns don't have enough stopping power to keep a seasoned warrior trained in sword combat from advancing on you.  Hence why guns have 14+ clip sizes.  So you can keep unloading ammo into him hoping he goes down.

Very few guns actually hit with the force of a sword, and they have significant kickback to them.  Most guns kill their opponents through pain and bleeding damage unless you happen to be trained in their use and hit a vital organ, perforating their lungs or heart or brain with your shots.  But liver damage?  You're not killing anyone with that, you're just fatally wounding them so they can run off and die in a corner somewhere.

In short, swords ARE deadlier than guns, guns just happen to be easier to use and capable of firing out from cover without needing to close a gap.
 

Blindga

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I ultimately go with 'Magic' as my fantastic reasoning behind why ranged weapons and melee weapons are used in equal measure, and why characters can essentially wear whatever they want into combat without consequence.

"When dealing with mundane individuals, something like a firearm or a bow would have clear advantage over a knife or sword. But as one becomes more powerful through training or means of magic, they gain more and more resistance to mortal attacks, and they're enhanced skills can allow a user to push a weapon past it's natural limits to perform impossible feats. A gun may have advantage over normal users with swords, but a gifted sword user could easily outdo a good marksman with magic attacks. A powerful individual can use a single gun to fend off dozens of knights, while a whole firing squad could fail to stop a magical swordsman. And the more powerful one becomes, the more resistant they are to nonmagic attacks and the more powerful the attacker must be in order to deal damage.. So while normal warfare still applies to us regular humans, magic combat ultimately come down to the skill and power of the combatants, with the weapon being only a medium of delivery."

That's my excuse though. There are a dozen ways to handle this kind of thing. And I honestly don't think its a bad idea at all. As Dalph said: Wild Arms. So go for it.
 

Eschaton

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People overestimate the lethality of bullets.  Most guns don't have enough stopping power to keep a seasoned warrior trained in sword combat from advancing on you.  Hence why guns have 14+ clip sizes.  So you can keep unloading ammo into him hoping he goes down.
I call shenanigans.  How do you know this?
 
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Blindga

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Bullets have initiative and critical bonuses while relying on Agility for damage calculation. Swords are slower, hit for more normal damage and rely on Strength. You can potentially crit for more damage with a sword but crits are rarer. Truly, a sword does more lethal damage than a bullet can, bullets are just easier to hit with.

People overestimate the lethality of bullets. Most guns don't have enough stopping power to keep a seasoned warrior trained in sword combat from advancing on you. Hence why guns have 14+ clip sizes. So you can keep unloading ammo into him hoping he goes down.

Very few guns actually hit with the force of a sword, and they have significant kickback to them. Most guns kill their opponents through pain and bleeding damage unless you happen to be trained in their use and hit a vital organ, perforating their lungs or heart or brain with your shots. But liver damage? You're not killing anyone with that, you're just fatally wounding them so they can run off and die in a corner somewhere.

In short, swords ARE deadlier than guns, guns just happen to be easier to use and capable of firing out from cover without needing to close a gap.
On that note, I do not know about all that.

I do remember reading some history though that may support this idea

In the old world America, back in the civil war, field physicians noted that while a musket shot was quite damaging, it was at least treatable. arrow wounds were much much worse, and they often forced amputations

Large arrow heads simply cause more damage than bullets. Deep cuts are more damaging than holes, and a solid metal arrow head causes more organ disruption and bodily commotion than a bullet half the size

It's safe to assume on that note, that the bigger the weapon or projectile the more damage would be dealt. A sword would certainly have more 'stopping power' in that.

But it's not always about 'damage'. It doesn't take a lot to kill a human. Guns are faster and easier to use. A sword deals more damage, but a shot to the chest is still as lethal as a sword to the chest.

It's not about 'power' but 'efficiency'. At least as far as the real world is concerned.

Personally, I just make stuff up first.

*autocorrect is dumb. Edited
 
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Lars Ulrika

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When it goes to modern military guns this is not true. A famas shot for exemple. If it touches your little finger tip you still have 50 percent chances to die from heart stop because of the shockwave. If it touches a bone, the bullet breaks it and there are strong chances the bullet "rebounds" in you making more damage plus the shockwave effect. It's because of the way the canon is done, giving some particular rotation effect to the bullet and makes it deadly. Without adding that with a calibrated to your sight weapon you can "easily" get someone at 200/300 meters distance while crouching somewhere. In such a setting, a swordsman is basically f*cked if facing a guy with some training at handling a famas.at shorter distance though odds get much different. shooting someone quick and right without time to aim correctly is EXTREMELY tricky. You can't imagine how easy it is to miss a target at 20 / 10 meters from you. And i dont even speak about a moving target + the stress of having some blond emo with a huge sword coming to maim you while you're distracted by his brunette's'ches....wait i'm getting out of topic
 

Alexander Amnell

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People overestimate the lethality of bullets.  Most guns don't have enough stopping power to keep a seasoned warrior trained in sword combat from advancing on you.  Hence why guns have 14+ clip sizes.  So you can keep unloading ammo into him hoping he goes down.
It's safe to assume on that note, that the bigger the weapon or projectile the more damage would be dealt. A sword would certainly have more 'stopping power' in that.
   You two are missing an important element to your claims, if we are talking non-lethal wounds (wounds that you can be brought back from, not necessarily even wounds that cannot even kill you.) then the argument could be made that an arrow is more effective than a bullet, or a sword as well. The reason for this, however lies in the fact that the wound was 'nonlethal' in the first place. The arrow pierces you and rips your flesh, or the sword does likewise, causing various tissue damage. While a nonlethal bullet most likely passed right through your body without harming internal organs or anything like that. There is no question of which weapon is more powerful as even a .22lr is capable of leaving the chamber with a force of up to 24000 psi (this is 40x the amount of power that professional heavyweight fighters can average with their fists) imagine that force hitting your unprotected body and you'll quickly realize that best case scenario would be for the bullet to pass completely through you without hitting vital organs or bones. (a .22lr would be the ideal round to get shot with, as it is small and narrow with little powder behind it so the risk of it ricocheting around inside your body are relatively small, thus it has less stopping power than most firearms. That said, the 22lr is responsible for more deaths statistically than any other caliber.)

   To talk about lack of stopping power in this way, as if a modern firearm wouldn't be capable of 'taking down a seasoned warrior before he advances on you' is a complete joke. In a fight where a swordsman has to advance on you I'd be willing to bet money that the most badass swordsman in the world would die in a fight with your typical 13 year old YSSP member with a .22 colt cadet. With a firearm shot placement is king, and a couple of rounds center mass from a .22lr will kill a man quite effectively. Combine this with the fact that the swordsman has to advance towards the shooter in order to harm him and the outcome becomes even more obvious. There is a range at which a gun becomes relatively useless both overfar or overclose (The far distance varies with the firearm, obviously, as for the close-distance, which is all that matters to this discussion, if you have to take 3-4 steps in order to reach the shooter then you aren't close enough for a melee weapon to have the advantage yet. In fact at that point you are in the worst part of a killzone to be at assuming the shooter has his weapon trained on you you won't stand a chance.) Now when you add self-defense or even military grade cartridges to this picture a swordsman doesn't stand any chance at all. (I guarantee you, no one is going to keep charging at you after you've double-tapped a couple of .40 s&w bullets into him center mass, in rare cases a man may keep shooting at you for all of 2 seconds before the pain hits him, but no one can shrug that off and continue a charge. This says nothing of the superior range and stopping power that a dmr would offer.) 

   Guns don't have large magazines because single shots don't kill, they have them because at mid-long range hitting targets that are moving, ducking and trying to hit you first becomes really fricking hard, and running out of ammo in the middle of a firefight = death or capture. Arguing that magic surpasses guns or that in the realm of a video game swords can beat out guns is one thing, claiming that a sword has any type of real advantage over a gun in most scenarios is just foolishness. If it were even remotely true then soldiers would still be being trained in the weapons use, they aren't and haven't been for over 150 years now because they wouldn't stand a chance. (even in the rare instance that a melee weapon can gain an advantage, it would be much better to have a smaller blade such as a dagger that can be thrust quickly into an opponent at no range.)
 
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Blindga

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To talk about lack of stopping power in this way, as if a modern firearm wouldn't be capable of 'taking down a seasoned warrior before he advances on you' is a complete joke. In a fight where a swordsman has to advance on you I'd be willing to bet money that the most badass swordsman in the world would die in a fight with your typical 13 year old YSSP member with a .22 colt cadet. With a firearm shot placement is king, and a couple of rounds center mass from a .22lr will kill a man quite effectively. Combine this with the fact that the swordsman has to advance towards the shooter in order to harm him and the outcome becomes even more obvious. There is a range at which a gun becomes relatively useless both overfar or overclose (The far distance varies with the firearm, obviously, as for the close-distance, which is all that matters to this discussion, if you have to take 3-4 steps in order to reach the shooter then you aren't close enough for a melee weapon to have the advantage yet. In fact at that point you are in the worst part of a killzone to be at assuming the shooter has his weapon trained on you you won't stand a chance.) Now when you add self-defense or even military grade cartridges to this picture a swordsman doesn't stand any chance at all. (I guarantee you, no one is going to keep charging at you after you've double-tapped a couple of .40 s&w bullets into him center mass, in rare cases a man may keep shooting at you for all of 2 seconds before the pain hits him, but no one can shrug that off and continue a charge. This says nothing of the superior range and stopping power that a dmr would offer.)
Right that's what I was saying. It's not the power, but the efficiency.
 
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Eschaton

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A bullet is moving at supersonic velocity.  A fast object has more energy, which means it has more force.  An arrowhead is going to tear you up more, and the arrow is indeed moving fast enough to cause some serious shock, it does not compare to the shock of a bullet.

In additon to the force of a bullet, you also have to take into account the terminal ballistics.  Not only is all that energy being concentrated into the point of impact, but that bullet is shattering inside you.  It is littering your body with shrapnel.  Rarely does a bullet exit its target.  (Edit:  a bullet designed to kill people)

Finally, take training into account.  Most marksmen are trained to perform "immediate action."  The standard immediate action when is to aim center mass and put a hammer pair (two immediate shots) into your target's chest.  If that doesn't put your target down, your next action is a "failure-to-stop" drill:  a prompt shot to the head or pelvis.

In the extremely highly-unlikely event that three shots doesn't put your target down, your target is obviously a dragon.
 
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