Bullet-proof heroes, swords and rocket launchers.

Kyutaru

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I call shenanigans.  How do you know this?
The advantage of having a police officer for a brother is knowledge of gun shot wounds.  You and Alexander both mistake the claims made as well when it comes to dropping power versus a sword.  A katana can slice a man from shoulder to stomach in a single swing, no bullet at any velocity is going to match that.  I didn't say a swordsman had any kind of advantage over bullets, just that swords literally do more lethal damage.  Most swords are not designed for stabbing but slashing, potentially inflicting critical damage to not just one vital organ.  Chance of bleeding out is also more significant when the wound spans two feet.

If you read my closing statement in the last post, all I stated was that swords are deadlier.  Modern military STILL trains its warriors in hand to hand combat and hands out combat knives capable of inflicting more damage than any dagger.  For clip size, I was actually only considering pistols because those are the types of firearms I have direct experience with.  Anyone who owns a handgun and has been trained its in use has been warned that it is not a foolproof weapon for personal defense.  If you don't place those shots in the right areas, your attacker will NOT stop and your life will remain in danger.
 

Eschaton

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Look, if your attacker is a hardened criminal, a trained combatant, or a guy high on meth/pcp/bath salts and you manage to only graze them then sure, it's just going to p*ss them off.  But even a graze is going to put down your average mugger, assuming things have escalated to the point where you have to pull the trigger.

And as for the samurai sword, yes:  a samurai could surely cleave me in two.  *You* couldn't.  I need to re-emphasize training, here.

Unless your typical Final Fantasy mook is a Stormtrooper, they should be well trained in the use of their service weapons and if they are, they should be dropping Spiky-Hair McPhallicsword like he was a microphone.

Speaking of which:  *drops mic.*
 

Blindga

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In additon to the force of a bullet, you also have to take into account the terminal ballistics.  Not only is all that energy being concentrated into the point of impact, but that bullet is shattering inside you.  It is littering your body with shrapnel.  Rarely does a bullet exit its target.  (Edit:  a bullet designed to kill people)
That's part of the other reason why civil war field physicians thought Indian arrows were deadlier than a musket bullet in that documentary I read. A deeply penetrated arrow would either have to be dug up with a knife or broken and then picked out; both caused catastrophic wounding and usually forced amputation.

I suppose I should correct myself then.

That the larger the projectile or weapon the worse the wound; barring shock/impact damage. A high-energy gunshot has more immediate stopping power and a greater capacity to bring down someone instantly. And again, considering range and efficiency there is no realistic reason why a blade could outdo a firearm in a real world circumstance. Ranged wins every time.

A sword slash would cause immense wounding and tearing, but that note alone doesn't make it deadlier than a gun realistically, since damage from either one would surely result in death.

But that's just what I think anyways.
 
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Probotector 200X

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How is this relevant to RPGs now? Even First Person Shooters don't go into this much detail about what bullets can do, so what does it matter for RPGs?

Sure, maybe someone could make an RPG, with RPG Maker even, where you fight enemies with guns and your aim affects what happens, and all the physics involved...but...it's so far off from 99% of RPGs that...it's irrelevant.

If an RPG hero can take 10 sword slashes to go down, then 1 bullet isn't going to stop them either.

Not trying to ruin anyone's fun or anything...

But for the Final Fantasy VII example. Yeah, you fight robots and tanks and stuff and beat them with your sword. Later, you can get beat up by large squirrels and stuff. Realism is boring.
 

BlissAuthority

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I opened a tab for this forum just to make this thread, but it was ninja'd.

Okay, firearms in fantasy RPGs...

Well, let's start with firearms in real life compared to melee weapons.  First off, nobody in their right mind takes a sword to a firefight.  Firarms have more range and lethality compared to swinging a sword.  True a sword could cleave you in two, but only if you can get close enough to the other guy to do so.  Meanwhile, you're shooting him.  Gun beats sword just about every time.  J.K. Rowling herself said gun beats magic, too.

Now back to RPGs.  I was always bothered by the "ranged isn't as effective as melee" trope, but it's something of a necessary weasel.  It's a balancing issue.

If swords hit as hard as bullets, then bullets still have an advantage.

What I've noticed are two usual methods of balance:

1.  Make guns weak, which makes them useless compared to melee

2.  Make guns rare, which makes them too awesome to use

As for the range issue in turn-based RPGs... I got nothing.  In games like Final Fantasy, in which range isn't an issue, swords hit harder than bullets because Japan.
Honestly?  I'd represent the advantages of guns like this:

  • Guns give evasion bonuses and lower aggro, to represent range.
  • Guns have absurd crit chances.
  • Guns deal less damage.
  • Guns ignore a portion of enemy armor; if a sword does (atk x 4)-(def x 2), guns do (atk x 3)-(def).
Because contrary to popular belief, they DID have and use guns in the middle ages; there was a period when they were as useful as, but had different roles than, bows and melee weapons.
 
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Alexander Amnell

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Because contrary to popular belief, they DID have and use guns in the middle ages; there was a period when they were as useful as, but had different roles than, bows and melee weapons.
What time period in the Middle Ages? Unless we are referring to the Chinese 'fire lance' as a firearm (which some do, but I view as more of a mini canon) then the earliest I've heard of firearms being used is in the 16th century, well into the renaissance. (Though there were canons around in the Middle Ages, but I wouldn't call a canon a gun necessarily as it has it's own set of uses and drawbacks separate from a discussion on small arms such as this.)
 

Probotector 200X

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What time period in the Middle Ages? Unless we are referring to the Chinese 'fire lance' as a firearm (which some do, but I view as more of a mini canon) then the earliest I've heard of firearms being used is in the 16th century, well into the renaissance. (Though there were canons around in the Middle Ages, but I wouldn't call a canon a gun necessarily as it has it's own set of uses and drawbacks separate from a discussion on small arms such as this.)
You know, I'd like to see more RPGs where you can use cannons. Like one of your characters "equips" cannons, and just lobs around a cannon.

They'd be slow, but hit HARD. A "glass cannon" maybe??
 

Milennin

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It's just as stupid as level 99 characters with the best equipment being able to roflstomp even the most powerful creatures in the world. Or a party of 4 people fighting their way through the entire army of the dark lord. Or surviving a multitude of spells that drop meteors and giant icicles onto the party.

If people can be OK with these things in their fantasy RPGs, then I don't see why a character with a magic sword beating guys with guns would be considered so strange.
 

hian

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A lot of uneducated nonsense here.

Can bladed weapons be a real threat to a person armed with a firearm? Yes. Police procedure dictates that the minimum safe distance for optimal safety against a potential attacker armed with a blade is +4 meters.

This is especially the case with blades like knives that are concealed.

The reason this is the case, is because an attacker that preempts and runs at you with a blade, is very likely to reach you and cut you before you get to draw your weapon, much less discharge it, due to what is called the "reactional gap".

Unless you hit a viral organ like the brain or the heart, an attacker might very well keep on coming even when hit several times by an ordinary firearm, like a 9mm handgun, or submachinegun, depending of course on size, level of aggression, and drug or alcohol influence.

Of course, if a person is standing at a ready, with weapon drawn at +6 meters, it is very unlikely that a blade wielding attacker will be able to reach attack distance before being shot down, which is why modern armies and law enforcement use guns, not blades.

Hand to hand combat and knife combat only makes up a tiny fraction of modern combative training, and any professional career "warrior" would consider it a severe breach of protocol to get into close-quarter combat, as it would mean that they've neglected not only their primary weapon, but also their side-arms and are presumably working without backup from partner or squad.

As for guns versus swords in a game setting :

It's not really a very relevant discussion. Most RPG combat is symbolic - an abstraction that uses numbers and statistics to make action sequences doable in a game context. They aren't relevant in terms of the narrative.

For example in FF7 -

Cloud isn't really getting hit by tons of machinegun bullets. Cloud is a ridiculously strong and fast, genetically altered person. Presumably, he's dodging the gunshots and using his super strength and materias to best armed opponents. However, due to hardware constraints and the traditions of the genre, we're left to imagine this, as the battlesystem uses a numerical system to make the battle sequences feasible from a gameplay perspective.

How else would you demonstrate Cloud's strength in gameplay while heeding narrative realism by making him weak to bullets?

The same is true for pretty much all games.

I would imagine that in pretty much any universe where guns and swords co-exist, we're supposed to accept that on the same premises like light-sabers in star-wars, namely that certain people are just so kick-ass that they can make it work.

In real life though? No. Unless you're going to jump people when they're not prepared, within a 4 meter radius, you're never going to be better off with a blade than with a firearm.
 

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