Can the games industry ban just full game walkthrough Youtube videos?

Discussion in 'Video Games' started by Nivlacart, Nov 21, 2018.

  1. Sleepy Kitten Games

    Sleepy Kitten Games Veteran Veteran

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    Yeah, Kotaku isn't well-known for being the most reliable source. They have a couple writers known for being more reliable, but the website as a whole is usually less credible.
    The way I see it, YouTube counts as free advertising. You have someone reacting in real-time to your game. If they love it, their viewership will probably like it too. Will 100% of that viewership buy that game? No. Some of them might get enough enjoyment out of watching the YouTuber play the game. Some might be young children or people who don't have jobs - i.e. people who can't afford to buy the game. Some of them might not have the console that the game was released for, and they don't want to go out to buy a new console just to play one game.
    However, say the game gets ported to a console they do have, or say the person gets a job and can afford to buy games. They might decide to buy that game despite already seeing a playthrough, or they might decide to buy another game from that same developer.
    Is it guaranteed to make more people buy games from you? No. Is it guaranteed to make more people not buy games from you? Also no.
     
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  2. Helladen

    Helladen Deviant Designer Veteran

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    #42
  3. mlogan

    mlogan Global Moderators Global Mod

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    They essentially did. They cut all but 25 employees, and kept only those to fulfill the Walking Dead obligation they were under, and my understanding is that once that is done, those employees will be let go as well. You can google it, there are tons of articles on it.

    edit: There’s even a post about it on that Facebook page.
     
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  4. Tai_MT

    Tai_MT Veteran Veteran

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    The problem we keep coming back to is thus:

    "Let's Plays and full game walkthroughs hurt games because you're getting access to the product!"

    Except... no, you aren't.

    As mentioned earlier, by me, and by others... A video game is meant to be played. If you have created a game in which it does not actually need to be played at all... You've created a movie. Not a game. At this point, you have two options:

    1. Stop marketing your movie as a game so that you can actually regulate full playthroughs on YouTube on the grounds that they're just watching a movie and you want paid for those views.
    2. Stop designing games that are movies.

    "Inside" is a movie. It has but a single solution to every puzzle. It has but a single way the game plays out. There is no player skill, only trial and error. It markets itself as a game, but it is, in fact, a movie. A smart person will take the stupid person for a ride here. Namely, the consumer will exploit the idiocy of the developer and get the full experience of this movie for free, because the developer decided to market it as a "game" instead. The "Tell Tale" games are also movies.

    They are not "games". They provide the illusion of being a game well, but they are not games. As such, a smart consumer will watch them on YouTube and not pay the money to buy them, because the developer wasn't very smart. Honestly, with the material they had, I'd have just made a 12 episode anime with it and charged people money for DVD's. I wouldn't have been stupid and went, "pay me $50 for the whole game" and then been upset when people watched it for free on YouTube. I'd have charged the $20 for the full 12 episode anime, got Crunchyroll to pay me royalties for hosting it... spent a little money advertising it... And made Bank. I'd have done the same thing with every property they picked up. Because it makes a lot more business sense.

    "The Last of Us" is a strange case. It's a subpar game that's 100% on rails... but it does have player skill... and actual gameplay... And yet... It is still designed like a movie. It is a linear narrative experience broken up by the gameplay. It isn't a linear gameplay experience broken up by narrative.

    See, I love making games about the story. I love writing. I write pretty constantly. I want to tell stories. However, I'm not dumb enough to do what "The Last of Us" did. Or Tell Tale Games... or weird indie games like "Gone Home", "Dear Ester", "What Remains of Edith Finch", or "Inside". I'm not dumb enough to write a story and try to market it as a video game. Why? Because, I could make more money and have more control over my product if I just wrote and published a book instead.

    You see, I am not silly enough to try to sell Apples while calling them Oranges and then get upset when I have to follow regulations on Selling Oranges instead of Apples just because people believe me when I tell them I'm selling Oranges... that are actually Apples.

    The only reason this topic is even an issue right now in the Video Games industry is because you have a bunch of people trying to change the definition of a "game" in order to charge more for their products than they normally could get away with... provided they put them into their proper medium.

    In other words... the problem only exists because some game devs… AAA and Indie alike... are trying to run a scam to get your money.

    Nothing more. Nothing less.

    I, for one, do not feel bad about taking money out of the pockets of people trying to scam me. They should just make their product a movie instead and I'll pay them their $15 for it. Unfortunately for them, I am too smart to pay $60 for a movie.

    Let the scammers move along to their next idiocy and try to make their money somewhere else. I play video games to play video games. I do not play video games to have an interactive 12 hour movie... which I could watch on YouTube in less than 2 hours and miss nothing.

    LP's only hurt games that are Scams and not Games.
     
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  5. Kupotepo

    Kupotepo Fantasy realist Veteran

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    @Nivlacart, let just say if you want your game to not broadcast on the YouTube, then you do not have to.
    Remember that we live in the age of globalization. You can get new customers from four directions of the world. I do not remember how many people around the world. I guess many. Your competition is every game that is not your game. The important point for marketing what game does grab the attention of customer first. That is Why people here keep insisting to you that spared awareness of the game is very important. You do not want to listen to us, then you want to do whatever you wish to.

    If you think from the perspective of the local market like your country, it feels like you will not make any money from showing the full walkthrough videoes on youtube. However, from the perspective of the global market, it is important to get into the news as fast as possible. The reason is everyone who has internet and enough money can buy your game instantly. So many people live on Earth.

    I think to want to discuss the free-rider problem in the game industry. The problem is not everybody is rich and can afford the game. However, those poor people tell other fortunate people to buy your game. As sellers of game, you cannot fault people for being poor, right? I think people do not should live in poverty or losing a job intentionally.

    However, the business has a choice to become successful or go bankrupt. The key to success is to listen to customers or your teammates. The game business is going bankrupt because they do not listen to their customers and improve according to customers request. If you make a game with a group, you have to listen and understand their point of view because they might catch your mistakes, reminding your, or the idea that you already know. If the game is full of bugs, a person who played a game in youtube exposes the bugs in a game. As a developer, do you get angry if someone exposed your game bugs? The people play a game on Youtube is only suggest that he or she like it. They do not have a brain controlling technology yet, to influence a viewer decision.

    As you said that game developers work very hard for their games and should get pay. If that is what you think, all of the people here post their game on game section should get pay. However who pay them? you? government? me? All of the people who post game for free because they are humble enough. They said to themselves that their skills are not perfect enough, so they need to learn more and keep practicing. If you want to blame RPG maker games which for lack of sale, you might need to blame the commercially RPG maker game that full of bugs and lack of creativity for creating a stigma.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
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  6. Benny Jackdaw

    Benny Jackdaw Ratty! Veteran

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    [QUOTE="Tai_MT, post: 917256]You can watch a "Let's Play" of a Pokémon game, but nobody really plays exactly how that person is going to play. Why? Because the game caters to lots of different styles.[/QUOTE]

    I'll admit, you've made some very good points, but I have to say that lately it feels like Game Freak is catering purely to people who you with certain type of Pokemon, where people who like other types are either ignored or outright insulted. I'm really hoping generation 8 fixes that, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
     
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  7. Nivlacart

    Nivlacart Glue my hand to the tablet pen. Veteran

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    Sorry to revive a thread on its way to dying, but it's been a busy last crunch of the semester in Uni and I had been occupied. I wanted to have closure on this, at least.
    I still did think of how to respond to this thread from time to time.

    I made this thread with the intention to question specifically the usefulness of full game walkthroughs and
    only full game walkthroughs

    when it comes to promoting a game, and was hoping to exchange some opinions on that.
    However, the replies to the conversation kept diverging from the initial topic, into
    false
    assertions that I was trying to proclaim that all Let's Play videos are bad for game marketing,
    or pushing their beliefs on what should constitute a game and what shouldn't.
    (those are valid topics for debate too, but those simply weren't the topic of this thread)

    On hindsight, I shouldn't have kept trying to address each reply's points, because the topic had long swerved. I should have reiterated earlier and made things clear.

    ----

    In conclusion, to make things clear, I'd like to say that this thread:

    1. Does not advocate banning Let's Plays or says Let's Plays/Game Youtubers are bad for games.

    2. Questions what benefits, in terms of promoting games, does full game walkthroughs have over reviews or content-planned videos.

    3. proposed that full-game walkthroughs have more cons than pros because they show more content than is needed to drum up interest in the game.

    4. optionally proposed that if there was an embargo on making full game walkthroughs for a period of time (like 3 months etc) it could possibly address point 3.

    ---

    Anyway, it seems that because most would unintentionally connect the topics of Game walkthroughs and Let's Plays as a whole, I think it would be quite hard to continue a discussion about this without hitting a dead end again.
    I would like to thank mlogan, Aoi Ninami and Mr. Detective for addressing the topic at least.

    If moderators feel that this thread probably won't contribute to any more constructive discussion, please feel free to close it.
     
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  8. TheoAllen

    TheoAllen Self-proclaimed jack of all trades Veteran

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    In my opinion, it does not necessarily need to be closed. Everyone can have their opinion and everyone shall respect each other opinion and possibly accept it as an open mind. For those who read the thread can also pick whoever replies that makes more sense to them and/or throw another opinion on this subject

    It can only hit a dead end if we're trying to achieve a general agreement. Without supporting facts, we may not reach a general agreement.
     
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  9. Tai_MT

    Tai_MT Veteran Veteran

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    @Nivlacart

    Let me address your points here..

    1. You actually do. Page 2 of this discussion you say:

    This is not the first instance of you taking this stance, and it is the reason people are responding in that way. If you are simply playing "Devil's Advocate", you should be clear about that and not phrase things every single time as your personal opinion.

    2. Most of the initial posts you got here covered exactly this. But, the shorthand is "exposure" and "more sales". At least, if the game is an "unknown" to players of the audience. But, if you're just talking about "Walkthroughs", then it serves no benefit. Why? Because the only players using a Walkthrough are those who already own your game. This means, all your points have no legs to stand on as you're essentially asking people who already own your game to buy it again just because they're using a Walkthrough. If you want to talk about "Let's Plays", however, you have a discussion. People who don't own your game already don't use "Walkthroughs". They watch a "Let's Play" or they watch a "Full story" video. This is what my posts were about, because this is obviously what you were talking about.

    3. They do not have more cons than pros. Only people who already own your game will watch a Full Walkthrough of it. It is you who are using "Walkthrough" and "Let's Play" interchangeably. It's why people are responding more to the "Let's Play" aspect. Because "Walkthroughs" are completely different, hit a different audience (the people who already own your game), and work differently than a "Let's Play". If you stopped using them as if they meant the same thing, other people would as well.

    4. An embargo on reviews of games has proven that it's a good way to lose money in the games industry. Do you think it would really go down any differently if you tried it on a "Walkthrough" of a game? REALLY? What about Written Walkthroughs? Are those different? If so, how? What if a review spoils the whole story of a game, is it just as bad? Worse? How do you deal with that?

    See, you're kind of vague in what you're asking people for. The solution isn't to punish the consumers. The solution is to fix the way game devs design games and do business. Namely, stop making games that can be ruined with a simple Walkthrough.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
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  10. Kupotepo

    Kupotepo Fantasy realist Veteran

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    In my opinion, customers have the right to spoiler if they want to. Why do people watch full game walkthroughs? People I talked to tell me they do not have the money right now. In the future, they will plan to buy. Please feel free to disagree because I am just one person with one mind.
    In my opinion, benefits:
    1.Provides transparency of game business practice (customers hate to buy a broken game)
    2.Reduce bad reviews ( people like different things; it is beyond your control)
    3. Give answers to puzzles and secret passages (You cannot control people how finding answers. You would like to respond to every question about your game? By watching your walkthrough might enough find answers)
    4. Unpredictable in term of how much your game sell (a very competitive market with many choices)
    5. promoting games by exposing potential buyers that your game exists and interest them.

    If you said so. If you believe so.

    If you want to do that to your game, why not, right? After all, you are the copyright holder of your product. You can try to experiment with that. It might work who knows.

    If you are learning from this discussion about other people perspective and their opinions, it is a constructive discussion. If you are already decided your decision, I do not see why the discussion needs to continue.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
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  11. dulsi

    dulsi Veteran Veteran

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    Game developers are not necessarily losing money from these. The movie and music industries love to trot out how much money they are losing to piracy but that is not true. Sure people might pay for some more movies or music if they couldn't get it for free but in a lot of cases they would just go without. That's not to say it didn't hurt some companies.
     
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  12. CmdrShep456

    CmdrShep456 Villager Member

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    I don't know about other people but this video made me decide I would go to Gamestop and pick up a copy of Mass Effect!
     
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  13. Fungii

    Fungii Veteran Veteran

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    Personally, I only ever watched LPs of games I already had no intention of buying; I've dropped ones that made me want to play, and specifically for TellTale games I would avoid bc I wanted to find out what my choices would be.

    Obviously it's a different impact for AAA vs indie devs, so I understand the frustration and worries. There are multiple patreon-scraper websites out there that hurt a lot of artists trying to make a living on their own terms, whereas who really cares if someone wants to sell a bootleg canvas of a Monet painting.

    Though there was the case where ATLUS straight up prohibited streaming of Persona 5, and there's Nintendo's rampant content claiming, so it's not like there haven't been attempts at stopping it. But none of them have been received well. I've seen some indie games have a "please do not stream/record this game" screen at start up, but that's not really going to deter those who don't care. Not even Toby Fox could get people to not talk about Deltarune for a day.

    As for the movie point, there's the arguement that LPs and even silent walkthroughs count as "transformative works", because no one can play a game the exact same way (Plus, just because a movie isn't on youtube doesn't mean its not out there in the wild anyway, come on).
     
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  14. Helladen

    Helladen Deviant Designer Veteran

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    Most games are only played up to the first 20% mark, then most players get bored and quit. Let's Plays allow these players to see if they enjoy the game or not, similar to a demo. Remember, that demos give you a lot of the game for free: the mechanics, the game design and all those factors. There's a reason games without a dynamic or sandbox world do not survive Let's Plays.
     
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  15. Seacliff

    Seacliff RPG Maker Mastermind Veteran

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    Edit: Whoops, should have just skipped to page 3.
    I have bought games I have seen most of/all of a let's play of. What's more, I have seen let's plays of games I have already play.

    Full game walkthrough normally exists for the sake of being a visual guide, rather than being watched from beginning to end. These rarely exist for games with light gameplay elements. Even in the case of Telltale's story-focus 'games', the reactions to multiple choices does not spoil 100% of the game.

    Let's Plays, or full walkthroughs with commentary, normally exist for the sake of the commentator. People watch those to see a personality's reactions, and they like them either because they like the person playing the game, or the game itself (which they would have to play first to know).
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
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  16. Sleepy Kitten Games

    Sleepy Kitten Games Veteran Veteran

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    If I may play devil's advocate for a moment.
    What would you say in cases of games that just aren't available in your region, or aren't available in your language? What if the game is only available in Japanese/available in Japan, but there's a full playthrough on YouTube that has captions translating it into English?
    Or what about games that came out years ago, on a console that isn't sold anymore (and that you don't have yourself)? Sure, there's the classic editions, but they don't have all of the games. Just the most popular ones. And sure, there's the possibility of buying the console and game online. But one, those might not be legitimate, two, they might be in poor enough condition to need repairs (and what if the places closest to you don't offer repairs for those consoles), and three, even if one and two aren't the case, there's also the chance that they'd be more expensive.
     
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  17. Lornsteyn

    Lornsteyn Sleepy Dragon Veteran

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    I watch Lets Plays mostly if I want more insight on a game before I decide to buy it.
    I dont really care for them normally that much, but Im totally against removing them.
    Beliving that removing and forbid Lets Plays would solve anything is really naive and could result in a huge backlash.
    They have already established themselves too much for that anyway.
    The gamecommunity is waking up and many just hate the greed of some companies nowadays.
    Im sure most people will not accept such actions anymore and I think that is good.
    Also you should not underestimate the influence of some Lets Players on their fans.
     
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  18. Mr. Detective

    Mr. Detective NATO Special Operative Veteran

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    Agreed. I like watching Mortal Kombat cutscenes because I like its story. But I don't like its fighting mechanic, so I don't buy the game. I don't watch any Yakuza videos because I want to play the game. :cool:

    Indie game or not, they don't get a pass for trying to sell an interactive movie as a video game. Visual Novels are basically just, well, novels that give you some choices, aka interactive novels. The writers/developers make no attempt to hide it. But a game that is just cutscene and cutscene with very little gameplay should be called exactly what it is: interactive movie. I can just Youtube a VN and know everything. How come VNs are selling? :rolleyes:

    I remember the backlash back when that happened. I don't know to what extent was Atlus losing money over contents being streamed. I doubt there was any. I understand some idiots would love to post spoilers on their channel to get views (saw this too often with Dragon Ball Super). But they can just ask the streamers to not display spoiler-ish title. Nintendo is just being greedy, just like how they go after Rom sites. Now, I don't know if it's their incompetence or cultural ignorance. But they are Japanese companies, and Youtube and Twitch are American sites, used mostly by Americans, made by Americans. Telling them that they cannot do X thing is like issuing them a dare. :confused:

    X company: Thou shall not do XXX.
    Americans: Challenge accepted. Hold my beer.

    Well, but to be fair, OP argues that they can just watch short gameplay videos, instead of full game walkthrough.

    But then the OP has yet to address my question: what if someone else posts the beginning of the game, I post the middle, and someone else posts the end. What then? Technically, we don't post the entire game, so we should be fine, right? :rolleyes:

    I guess OP would call that piracy or condemn people for watching or using emulator. :oops: Personally, if I am in this situation, I'd just resort to Youtube or emulator. Hey, if the developers never expected a sale from a foreigner like me, they wouldn't lose anything, right? o_O

    Recently, I found myself in a similar situation. I bought The Evil Within for 10 bucks, but the DLCs were on sale as well for 5 more dollars. Now, the DLCs are mostly focused on stealth or puzzles, so I can just YT the whole thing and save myself $5. I bit the bullet and bought them anyway, since many folks I talked to recommended me to just buy them. I also bought The Order 1886, just to see what it's like for myself. Hope I don't end up regretting my purchases. :confused:
     
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  19. Helladen

    Helladen Deviant Designer Veteran

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    Let's Plays are garbage. They should be banned in all of media. Nintendo has been in the gaming industry for a long time and are actually the best gaming company ever. They have the most innovative titles going back to the SNES era. Having your property put on YouTube to watch someone else play it, actually makes you never want to play the game.

    Why is this? I watched To the Moon from Pewdiepie, because I wasn't inclined to play a visual novel like what To the Moon is mostly. Honestly, I bought the game still on sale, but I never wanted to play the game.
     
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  20. CleanWater

    CleanWater Independent Developer Veteran

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    Everyone have their bills to pay. Otherwise, everyone will starve to death on the streets. What's the problem on wanting to get paid for our work?

    People really should change this mindset about games and any other kind of media.
     
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