Categorize 22 major arcana into three groups. Alignment Law, Neutral and Chaos

[Thothdan]

Hello. I needs help in my attemp to separate tarot arcana into three categories. For an example should be something like this.
Law : The Sun, The Justice
Neutral : The Fool
Chaos : The Moon, The Devil
But i have no idea. Which should go where. I don't know tarot card well enough to categorize them in the first place. Your oppinions could help me a lot. Thank you.

 

[TheoAllen]

• The Fool = Neutral
• The Magician = Lawful
• The High Priestess = Lawful
• The Empress = Lawful
• The Emperor = Lawful
• The Lover = Lawful
• Strength = Neutral
• The Hierophant = Lawful
  
• The Hermit = Neutral
• Wheel of Fortune = Neutral
• Justice = Neutral
• The Hanged Man = Neutral
• Death = Chaos
• Temperance = Neutral/Chaos
• The Devil = Chaos
• The Sun = Chaos
• The Tower = Neutral
• The Star = Neutral/Chaos
• The Moon = Neutral/Chaos
• Judgment = Neutral
• Za Warudo The World = Neutral

Disclaimer: I'm not knowledgeable about major arcana (or tarot cards in general)

 

[megumi014]

I think it really depends on your definition for Lawful/Chaos. If you mean Lawful = Good, Chaos = Bad, Neutral = In the middle, then it is easier. If you mean Chaos as something unstable (chaotic) it doesn't necessarily needs to be bad.

For example the Wheel of Fortune could either be good or bad, so you could say it is an unstable card but it could also be neutral since inherently is not either of those.

This is how I'd sort them if it was the good/bad version (@TheoAllen list is quite good but personally I would change a few of them).

• The Lover = Neutral
• The Chariot = Lawful.
• Strength = Neutral/Lawful.
• The Hierophant = Lawful/Neutral
• Death = Neutral
• Temperance = Neutral
• The Sun = Lawful
• The Tower = Chaos
• The Star = Lawful
• The Moon = Chaos

 

[Kes]

Is this a mechanic of a game, or is it a general question?

 

[Thothdan]

Is this a mechanic of a game, or is it a general question?

Yes this is a mechanic of the game. Each npc has their own arcana to represent their personality.

 

[Countyoungblood]

I would assign the alignments after making the npcs.

 

[megumi014]

I don't know tarot card well enough to categorize them in the first place.

If you want to use them for NPC then I suggest you to familiarize yourself a bit with each arcana, since they usually have some concepts associated to them. The Persona series do that and there is a reason for the Emperor always being a guy, or the Hierophant an adult/old person. Of course you could also take that and subvert the expectatives, or take into account the inverted meaning of the arcanas... there is a lot of potential.

 

[Finnuval]

I am somewhat familiar with tarot , still all I can say about it is this: Seeing as the meaning of every tarot card can shift based upon the way it's layed out and the question asked, plus the fact that when layed out for instance upside down or in a different spot the meaning changes it is near impossible to categorize them in something like law/neutral/chaos.

So do as you wish. Asign them acording to the role they play (or their respective character plays) in your game. There is no wrong answer here only A fitting one

 

[kairi_key]

Yeah, I really think you should try to make out what each alignment means to your game.
What is lawful? What does it even mean? What does it mean in the context of your game?
In the same manners, what does neutral and chaos means?

I'm also finding that strictly categorizing 22 major arcana into 3 group is very subjective. It really depends on your opinion or on your use of each category and each arcana.

Also, aren't alignments have 2 dimensions? like Good-Neutral-Evil on one axis and Lawful-Neutral-Chaos on another axis.

I also suggest you to think of how each arcana and each alignment feels and/or defined in your game. Some arcana can really fit into one of three alignments fine(like Justice and Devil is a given), but some are really on gray area and really depend on where you draw the line in your definition and distinction. For example, Fool arcana can be Chaos because it can mean "possibility" and "risk" but can also be Neutral if you look at it as "blank slate."

 

[Finnuval]

Devil is a given

Is it now? In tarot The Devil cards stand for giving in to your raw desires. If that is Evil is up for debate

I agree the subject is a bit to large and to open to interpretation to categorize them so easily

 

[kairi_key]

Is it now? In tarot The Devil cards stand for giving in to your raw desires. If that is Evil is up for debate

I agree the subject is a bit to large and to open to interpretation to categorize them so easily

What I meant is Devil is a given for Chaos Alignment since the OP said only Lawful-Chaos. "Giving in to your raw desire" is the prototypical characteristic of Chaos alignment whether it being Chaotic Good or Chaotic Evil.

 

[Finnuval]

@kairi_key I agree. However I wanted to show how easy it is to get lost in the subject when looking for interpertations especially when the matter of categorizing changes (from the op's law chaos to the latter good/evil) and your post lend itself for that purpose

But yes, giving in to ones desires can be categorized as chaos, both good and evil,

If the categorizing was done in male/female I wouldve made the same point

 

[Thothdan]

@kairi_key
Pardon me for replying so late.

Spoiler

Law : Those who has obey the laws made by the ruling party. (most likely the royalties/nobles)
Chaos : Those who want the country to be govern by peoples. 'Everyones are equal' is the banner they has vigorously waving arounds.
Neutral : Those who don't care who the ruler is. They can do just fine in their works/business. (without depending on the government subsidies)

 

[Finnuval]

@Thothdan in that case you will also need to think on what each of these classes represent further. Is the ruling class/nobility noble and righteous or corrupt and decadent? Answering these questions for yourself will help you determine which card fits best .
This might work best for you : Think of each card as a character/NPC give them a personality you think goes with that card (you can look on google for the description of each card to give you a base idea) and then think: this character, which class would he be a part of?

Only the fool is a given : He is 0, the source of ALL possibilities so he should always be neutral

 

[kairi_key]

Okay, that's a good start.

Tho one thing I wonder is... how will these alignments and arcana fit into your game's mechanic? How does it work with your game? You also mention npc. How does that work as a mechanics? Is it just each person is a representative of each arcana or many npcs are grouped into one arcana? And why do they needed to be grouped into 3 alignments in the first place?

Bringing it back to be a thread worth being in a Game Mechanics forum a bit, lol.
Because, surprisingly, I also believe that thinking about how it works mechanically can really give you more information to work with in categorizing things. Some of the nuance area of arcana can benefit from the gameplay balancing aspect. Like, I can think of situation where Lover arcana can be in all 3 alignments. (Aristocrat lovers, a person who work through relationship and found that all are equal, or even a person who just love and don't care about these politics.) Think about how it work mechanically can draw limitation that help you choose what aspect you wanna represent in your game. Dealing with stuffs like arcana is already dealing archetype so you may also wanna look into that too (both personality archetype or even class archetype).

Also, start easy, lol.

 

[LaFlibuste]

It's indeed a cool idea to match characters with an arcana, one I've played with from time to time but never actually did anything with. They present great archetypes.

I really like the tarot arcanas, it is very well thought-out, the symbolic is very interesting.

I haven't read what everyone wrote but since you said you don't really know the arcanas that much I think what would help you the most is a brief description of the actual arcanas and what they symbolize. Mind you that in some practices, arcana can come out upside down too. This generally means an extreme of what that card represents, either too much or too little, an unbalance. It doesn't inherently means it is bad and it certainly doesn't convey the card's opposite.

It's been a while since I've dabbled into this, mind you, and I'm doing this out of memory so it might not be perfect. Also interpretations may vary.

I'll also try to place them on the Lawful/Chaotic, as per DnD standard (i.e. not the Good-Evil axis).

By the way, the cards are generally already separated in three categories of 7 cards but it's been too long and I'm not 100% percent sure what they stand for. I think it was something like I-VII is the self, VIII-XIV is the physical world, XV-XXI the metaphysical world, with the numberless Fool being the outsider, the reject, not belonging to any of these three.

So without further ado:

First Cycle:
I - Magician (Neutral or Chaotic)
- This card is the origin, the beginning, the protagonist. It represents one's innate skills and abilities, someone who's self-taught. It is about potential.
Archetype for a character: Male; A thief, a street urchin, someone of modest origin, a backwater village boy.

II - High Priestess (Neutral or Chaotic)
- Secret, intuition, confident wait, a female protagonist or a woman very important to the protagonist (lover, mother...). It is the matrix.
Archetype for a character: Female; A spy of sorts,

III - Empress (Lawful)
- Thought, Intelligence, studies, knowledge, culture, all things written.
Archetype for a character: Female; A scholar

IV - Emperor (Lawful)
- Matter & Reality, the bases, stability, work, a boss, accomplishments
Archetype for a character: Male; A boss or some sort, a military captain or something

V - Hierophant (Lawful)
- A counsellor, morality, duty, a specialist. Philosophy, an invisible force.
Archetype for a character: Male; A priest of sorts

VI - Lovers (Chaotic)
- Cross-roads, Youth, enthusiasm, beauty, desire, discussion & choices.
Archetype for a character: Either male or female; Someone young, in any event. A courtesan, maybe? Or a diplomat.

VII - Chariot (Neutral maybe?)
- Independance, mastery, victory, merit, progress
Archetype for a character: Male; Could be a lot of stuff. A martial artist?

Second Cycle:
VIII - Justice (Lawful)
- Logic, organisation, structure, balance, justice, law, order, government
Archetype for a character: Either male or female but would be interesting as the latter; A judge, a military person

IX - Hermit (Neutral)
- Thought, Wisdom, Experience, a loner, chastity, taking things slow, a warning
Archetype for a character: Male; An old mage

X - Wheel of Fortune (Chaos)
- Joy, opportunity, resourcefulness, luck, movement & change, instability, adventure. The cycle, what goes around comes around, alternatives.
Archetype for a character: Male; A gambler, an adventurer

XI - Strength (Could be any)
- Intensity, Courage, Energy, Confidence, entrepreneurship, sex, sport, being one's own boss
Archetype for a character: Female; Someone tough, a warrior

XII - Hanged Man (Probably Neutral)
- This one is always seen as negative but it is not really. It is about relationships, self-sacrifice, wishes, oaths, volunteering
Archetype for a character: Male; A former slave, a knight with an oath?

XIII - nameless arcana (a.k.a Death) (Hard to say, probably Neutral?)
- This one is also seen as negative but it is not necessarily. It really is about change. To begin new things, you have to end/finish others. It is about making decision, reaping the harvest, turning a page. Transmutation & Finality.
Archetype for a character: Male; An assassin would fit the stereotypical depiction... Or a necromancer maybe?

XIV - Temperance (Also probably Neutral)
- Conciliation, Compromise, the return of someone/thing from one's past and/or a new start, to begin anew, a renewal, regeneration, leisure, vacations, communications, possibly even a miracle.
Archetype for a character: Female; Maybe a paladin, a healer or something?

Third Cycle:
XV - Devil (Chaos)
- This card isn't bad in itself either. It is about passion and all earthly pleasures: sex, money, food, sport, ownership. It is about vitality, the joy of being alive & enjoyment (all things considered bad by the church hence making it the devil)
Archetype for a character: Female; A barbarian or berzerker of sorts?

XVI - Tower (Chaos)
- Mistrust & defiance, power, plot twists, success beyond expectations... but beware! Danger is never too far away with this one, it's balance is fragile.
Archetype for a character: Either Male or Female; A dark knight would fit.

XVII - Star (Neutral)
- The future, occult protection, nature. Sweetness, friendship, hope, dreams, an artist, a helper. Achievement, but later.
Archetype for a character: Female; A ranger, an elf, an archer & woodswoman.

XVIII - Moon (Neutral or maybe Chaotic, depending on how you spin it)
- Creation, Family, Home. It is about the past, tradition but also about the night, imagination, illusions & appearances. It is also about gestation. This is a very feminine card.
Archetype for a character: Female; an illusionist

XIX - Sun (Lawful)
- Feelings, Light, Children. Generosity, peace, happiness, love, riches, art & warmth.
Archetype for a character: Male; A knight in golden armor, a paladin

XX - Judgement (Could be any)
- Spontaneity, the public, renown, genius & invention, success, speed
Archetype for a character: Male; An inventor

XXI - World (Lawful)
- The whole, the crowning. Manners & politeness. Legitimate success, apotheosis.
Archetype for a character: Possibly Female; A noble, a fencer maybe?

Outside the cycle:
Technically it has no number, but some people brand it as either 0 or 22. Personally I like it being numberless, it really stresses that it is not a part of this - Fool (Would be great if you didn't put him in any of your 3 categories, but if you have to he probably is Chaotic)
- The end of the cycles. An original or marginal fellow, a loner/independant, a stranger, someone weird. Travels, evolution, the unknown.
Archetype for a character: Male; A bard, a traveller. Maybe a character that joins & leaves the party periodically, kinda like Shadow in FF6? Someone that does not really fit in or belong...

Well anyway, hopes this gives you tons of ideas and good luck with your project

 

[Lady-J]

@LaFlibuste wow that was a great post. Its got me all kinds of inspired.

 

[Finnuval]

@LaFlibuste That's a rather nice short version of each card (except the male/female part in this context unless you mean to say it in a more yin-yang kinda way)

 

[LaFlibuste]

The Male/Female thing was more a general idea for the character they could represent. The cards themselves (most of them at least) represent characters, which are gendered, but yeah you don't have to get married with these.

Glad you like it, hope it helps

 

[mlogan]

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