Challenging Combat

[atasuke10]

Tell me what is the good kind of challenging combat? What makes it challenging but not cheap (as in just huge chunks of damage that you have to grind to mitigate.) 
I need to know and live by it

 

[shockra]

I would create enemies that use different mechanics.  For example, for the game I'm currently planning, the first boss can create a shield over itself that negates ranged attacks and magic, but melee attacks destroy the shield.  That sort of puzzle interaction in battles can force the player to think out their move rather than simply throw raw damage at it.

 

[KayZaman]

I like to make battle where hostage is include, inspired from Counter Strike. Defeat enemies but don't kill the hostage

 

[The Art of Gaming]

The game should keep changing as the player progresses, nothing crazy and completely foreign to the player but enough to keep them from getting bored. Also eventually the enemies should start doing things players would do (using row formations to minimize damage taken, trying to use super effective hits, etc) and otherwise show some sort of intelligence.

 

[trouble time]

Enemies that are very different from one another and require different tactics to defeat, organized in troops in a way that makes battling the individual troops a different expirence. In addition the player characters skills and basic attacks need to be a bit situational in their use so that the player has to think of which tool to use for the job. This is also why I tend to prefer games with more specialist characters rather than generalist characters. A note specifically for job systems, even if classes do something similar make sure they have a different way of doing it that makes the tactical descisions different. A tank that relies on stealing health should be functionally very different from a tank who just has a ton of HP and Defense. I could be more specific, but it really depends how you're designing your game. There is also elements of unpredictability to consider which usually results from giving the enemy a little variety in their skills. Ideally most of this should not be gimmicky, like a skill that is only useful for one dungeon and then it is no longer useable at all, I don't discourage the use of gimmicks, but it should be something done in addition to other things. I'd also avoid elementally themed dungeons, because if I have a variety of similar spells I do get tired of using the same element on every enemy I encounter, I actually like it when elements are defined by something other than an element modifer. There is also value in having mechanics unique to your game, for example I was playing altier rorona or something like that and it had a system where elemental magic got stronger for both sides the more elements of a single type were cast but casting another element reset the scaling (or something like that I was real sleepy going though the tutorial, from here on I'm speaking of the system as I remember it, even if that may be wrong, sorry) and I see how that could add a lot of depth with enemy parties of mixed elements, it also adds a situational nature to spells since they could be more or less useful depending on which element is strong at the time, or even detrimental if you power up your enemies magic too much. I'm actually a big fan of symetrical buffs and debuffs and could go on and on about them, but I think I'm done for now.


Anyway, this is my personal opinion on the matter.

 

[Doktor_Q]

Some of my thoughts, in no particular order before I sleep:


As a general rule, no matter what the details of your system, the player should have to make choices during combat, under threat of losing*. Is now the right time to use my shield? Should I try to seal the enemy's magic, or heal my damage first? Can I afford to burn through my MP to try and take him out earlier? It's strategy, it's gambling, it's resource management, it's the meat of a turn based RPG.


In addition to MP cost and consumable items, 'time' is a resource, be it turns or ATB ticks. Maybe a skill has a literal cooldown, or maybe the enemy is immune to a status for a while after they recover. This is a reason the basic attack can be hard to pin down, because it's designed to use no resources and have no consequences: It's easy to over-balance and make it too weak, or to make it too strong and therefor the most efficient action.


A touch of random is good- you don't want the player to be completely at the mercy of the RNG (presumably), but you don't want them to just memorize a turn-by-turn formula to win. Personally, I prefer critical hits and "critical defense" over outright dodge/hit formulas, but you can experiment and pick your own favorite. All-or-nothing abilities are a form of difficulty, but are probably the most frustrating kind, rather than what you'd call "challenging."


If your healers are too competent, it takes a lot of tension out of the fight. If you can remove any damage within a turn of taking it, what threat is there? And when the healer dies, you're probably boned. Limit your healer a bit, either by time, attention, or resources, and supplement them with ways to mitigate or prevent damage in the first place- blind, paralyze, attack debuffs, defense buffs, tanks with taunt or substitute- there's a plethora of ways to do it, just make sure to restrict them as well. They're supposed to supplement the healer, not permanently neuter the enemy.


Depending on the amount of customization and preparation a player can do, and how much you telegraph ahead of time, a part of the difficulty can be offloaded to the player's build choices. It also gives more options for the player to strengthen themselves beyond just grinding for more stats- they can also hunt down a new weapon that lets them steal enemy HP, reducing the burden on the healer without sacrificing too much damage output, for example.


Of course, you can also go in a slightly different direction by adding action commands or timed hits or the like, both to increase your own damage as well as reducing the enemy's. A boss's attack can be much more engaging if rather than simply suffering more damage, the player has to frantically act to avoid being annihilated, and wonders how many more times they can defend it.

 

[Wavelength]

Enemies - Enemies that can deal more damage than your party can heal over the long run.  Enemies with unique moves that differentiate them from other enemies.  Enemies that tend toward higher ATK and MAG and lower DEF and HP.  Enemies that make intelligent selections about what skills to use, when to use them, and which party members to target.


Troops - Troops where the different enemies have differing levels of "threat" (power, deadliness).  Troops where the enemies synergize with each other well (e.g. a tank-type enemy that can taunt you and an assassin-type enemy that can deal lots of damage).  Troop eventing in general that affects the battle, keeping the player on his toes.


Skills - Skill Cooldowns, which force the player to rely on using more than one skill.  Reasonably weak basic attacks.  Tightly and cohesively themed skillsets for actors so that a single actor can't do everything on her own.  Highly situational skills.


Stats - Having an actual use for the AGI and LUK stats.  Also, making sure the enemies you find in ordinary encounters have high enough stats to actually be threatening.


Low RNG Influence - Avoid things like Misses, Evasion, and skills that have a percentage chance to accomplish nothing (e.g. a Blind that only works 40% of the time), unless you have a really good reason to include these things.


Healing - Should be expensive, situational, costly, weak, or limited, during battle, in order to avoid allowing it to simply erase all mistakes the player makes.  Healing outside of battle can be easy or even automatic, however - this allows you to make the challenge within battle even higher.


Extra Mechanics - Changes to how battlers take turns.  Row, Position, or Area of Effect mechanics.  Aggro systems.  Real-time ATB systems.  Combo attacks.  Limit Break-type mechanics.  Environmental effects.  "Favor" systems.  Pretty much any twist that you can add to your battle system will help encourage the player to think about how they can best use it, which is absolutely a form of challenge.  Just be careful your mechanics aren't too abusable.

 

[atasuke10]

Thank you for all the good advice, it actually reinforced a lot of things
have to say that rng ticks me off too, i absolutely hate any aspect of it so its minimized to its minimum