Change to People2 sprite

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Little Paw, Jun 22, 2018.

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  1. mlogan

    mlogan Global Moderators Global Mod

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    See, here’s the problem and I’ve told you this before in other threads. You sometimes have legitimate complaints or concerns. But instead of attempting rational discussion you come into these threads throwing a temper tantrum and demanding you get your way and get answers. Nobody wants to deal with that sort of attitude. Had you started a calm discussion asking why, rather than throwing a fit and insisting it’s some horrible evil cover up, you would have gotten a different response.

    Even you waffle back forth between DEMANDING that it’s censorship and the rational thought that there might be some logical reason for the change.

    I can guarantee if the change had been the other way around you would not have a care in the world, because boobs!

    All I can suggest to you is to fill out a support ticket or do some internet searching to figure how to demand answers from Kadokawa, but stop throwing your fits here. If you want a reasonable discussion then by all means have at it.
     
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  2. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    And before you say anything, I searched your history on these forums (anyone can do it by search by member), and it isn't flattering. In fact, if anything it leads support to what she just said.
     
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  3. ??????

    ?????? Diabolical Codemaster Veteran

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    lulz

    Reminds me of when i complained about the assets supplied within the pre-order bonuses for mv...
     
    #23
  4. Little Paw

    Little Paw Veteran Veteran

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    Please refer to my very first post in this thread. Literally nothing I said in that post was "throwing a temper tantrum". I did in fact start a calm discussion asking why. I however did not find it very nice to have a bunch of censorship-apologists dogpile on me and tell me it was nothing to worry about when it ABSOLUTELY IS SOMETHING TO WORRY ABOUT. The entire thing creates a slippery slope and it will only lead to more, even worse censorship.

    I also *did* in fact clearly ask in a previous message how I might go about contacting the people responsible. What sort of support ticket do I need to file? Nobody answered that question.

    All I have done here is ask *why* this was censored. I even plainly stated that if there was some sort of legitimately good reason for it, like a change in content requirements from CERO/ESRB/etc, then I would understand. However, based on the response that I am receiving, I don't think that's likely to be the case at all. I think it's much more likely that there are just far too many SJWs around here, pushing their insane ideologies on people by removing content that they find "offensive". But I cannot be sure, as nobody has yet actually answered my question.

    And for the record, no, I wouldn't complain that it was censorship if she had pants to begin with and was changed to her original outfit, because that would not fit the qualifications for the term censorship. I would *still* however be questioning WHY the change was made. It has nothing to do with boobs, it has to do with a completely nonsensical change that was made long after the product's launch for no apparent reason and no excuse given other than it being a "fix" to a problem that did not exist.
     
    #24
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  5. hiddenone

    hiddenone Lurker Extraordinaire Moderator

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    @Little Paw There's an option for 'other' in the support ticket subject, which would probably fit your inquiry. I don't know if anyone will be able to answer it though, since it's entirely possible the change was made just because the artist thought the pants look better or perhaps meant to have them from the beginning and forgot to add them until they looked at the sprite recently, and they didn't tell anyone the reason beyond that they 'fixed it'. If this was really about censorship, then I'd think some of the battlers would've been changed as well and I don't think that's the case.

    Personally I dig the purple pants, so I'm happy with the change, but if I wanted the skin-colored legs it's like a five-minute adjustment doing it by hand so no biggie.
     
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  6. Kyuukon

    Kyuukon 主人公 Veteran

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    Censorship of any kind is never good. It's important to let the company know how displeased the users are about it if that happened to be the case (like @Little Paw said, most of those who protest against "offensive content" (aka SJWs lol) are not even interested in the product anyway). It's not particular to this case but a general problem in the industry as of lately.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
    #26
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  7. mlogan

    mlogan Global Moderators Global Mod

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    No, that’s not a calm question, it’s a confrontational one. You didn’t ask why it was changed, but why it was “censored”, already accusing when you don’t know the reason.

    Second post on it, again confrontational.
     
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  8. OmnislashXX

    OmnislashXX Veteran Veteran

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    Y'know, I'm all for getting rid of censorship, in all honesty. I feel that it isn't even about covering skin, but really it's a violation of the artist's intended artwork. And he is correct in that there is nothing stopping Kodakawa from censoring more sprites.

    The difference here of course is that you can by all rights take the old Sprite and save it, there by keeping the original. If you couldn't do that, then I would have an issue with it.

    So you have a legitimate argument. You have people that agree with you. The problem is that this isn't the thread for you to raise your concerns.

    I suggest then, if want to continue to discuss the issue, (in a civil manner), you create a new thread for it there.
     
    #28
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  9. Tuomo L

    Tuomo L Oldbie Veteran

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    Since when are legs too mature to be shown? This isn't the 50's where showing a leg was considered taboo and skinny. The belly dancer's sprite was totally fine before, this change was just plain silly.

    Man, anyone who thinks the original was too risque will probably have a heartattack if they ever go into the beach sometimes, since there's women with even less clothing.
     
    #29
  10. Kes

    Kes Global Moderators Global Mod

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    Many of the answers here assume 2 things, both of which are unproven.

    First, that this is censorship. That has been an assumption from the get go. It was not a question but an assertion. There is no proof either way. Alternative possibilities have been suggested but they are immediately discounted even though they are just as, if not more, plausible than the accusation. That suggests that this argument is ideological with no intention of arriving at the truth, but simply in getting one's own way. Repeating something multiple times does not turn it into a fact.

    Second assumption, again based on an unsubstantiated assertion, is that this change came about due to lobbying by SJWs. No proof is offered, it is simply claimed to be true. I personally have seen no one, SJW or otherwise, demanding this change be made. Claiming that this is the cause without a shred of evidence does not make for rational discussion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
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  11. taarna23

    taarna23 Marshmallow Princess Global Mod

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    There's no censorship here. None whatsoever.

    If a company decides to change their own content, that's not censorship. If Blizzard decides to take all of the metal bikinis away from warriors in World of Warcraft, that's not censorship. If <company here> decides to change/remove <content here>, that's not censorship. If I decide to take something out of my own game because I don't like it, and heck if anyone else does like it, that's not censorship. That's owner's prerogative. It's their stuff and they can do what they like with it, and I can do what I like with mine.

    If I go into your posts and start changing/removing things you've (in a generic sense; not directed at anyone in particular) said because I don't like what you've said... that's censorship. If I disallow posts because I don't like you... that's censorship. If I delete your posts because I don't think you should be here... that's censorship.

    Changing a product: not censorship.
    Stifling someone's expression for arbitrary, non-rule-related reasons: censorship.

    So, changing those pixels? Not censorship, especially given that you can, at any time of your choosing and with only mild inconvenience, retrieve the version you prefer. So put in the effort and go get and use the one you like. If you can't spend the time and effort to do that, but can spend the time and effort to sit here and go ZOMG CENSORSHIP, it may be time to re-evaluate your priorities.
     
    #31
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  12. Touchfuzzy

    Touchfuzzy Rantagonist Staff Member Lead Eagle

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    All I know was that it wasn't changed because of any complaints made by the public, at least not in the EN community (and culturally I would not expect it to happen in the JP community), as if it did I would have been the one to receive it.

    And we sell stuff that is racier than the belly dancer (look at Heroine Character Pack 3).

    Why it was changed? I don't know. But it was an internal decision by KDKW, and they are allowed to do that.
     
    #32
  13. masterlobo

    masterlobo Veteran Veteran

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    MRW I opened the thread to post my thanks for this release...

    [​IMG]
     
    #33
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  14. Tuomo L

    Tuomo L Oldbie Veteran

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    Oh, I don't care what the excuse or reason really is. Censorship, change in policy, whatever. That's irrelevant.


    I just think that the original belly dancer sprite looks far better. Personally, I think original was just fine and this change was just silly and not needed, because we're talking about showing just leg and unless we now have a policy where legs are considered taboo to be shown.

    If however, you consider legs taboo, what about people 2-7? The bunny girl shows her legs too. In fact, nearly every female character shows their legs, like the nurse in SF_People 3 for example, you can totally see her knees.


    The original outfit was a lot more authentic to actual belly dancer performance outfit. Legs play an important part in the dance, you need to show them!

     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
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  15. Dankovsky

    Dankovsky Veteran Veteran

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    Regarding the whole censorship issue...

    I can agree that the complaint was taken a bit too far and was too vocal.
    Personally I think that in the world of business and politics you should just expect shitty stuff like this happening outside of your control, and nobody really owes anyone any explaination except for 'we don't care what you think, deal with it'. Probably some crappy lawyer or government entity or age rating agency raised this 'concern' and put down some demands. sheep happens.

    However I don't really like the reactions for this that were posted:
    - you're the only one who cares
    - some guys decided new ones look better
    - it's not censorship maybe it was artistic choice
    - nobody owes you any explaination, and you're just weird and overreacting

    Now, even if you don't represet publisher directly, I think replies like this from moderators and community staff are unprofessional.

    Therefore I'd like to state that:
    - it is indeed an issue that should not be taken lightly even if this situation is not nearly as dramatic as it could have been
    - there is no other plausible explaination for this change except for censorship. Subtle image changes like this are very widespread unfortunately, and I think anyone claiming otherwise is wearing rose-tinted glasses
    - Little Paw is NOT the only one who cares. just the most loud one. I for one also hate when things like this happen, and you can be sure if this was more public you'd have much more complaints
    - I hope publishers will take this issue in the account the next time they're pushed to make this choice, and think twice, because this behavior is very consumer unfriendly to say the least (even if you're legally allowed to do so), and I'd like very much if you avoided it completely in the future

    Thank you for the only reasonable answer in this thread. Keep up the good work.
    It is however just a little sad that even the official staff is cut off from communicating to the dev/publisher and can't neither obtain or provide official comments.
     
    #35
  16. Kes

    Kes Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @Dankovsky If you won't take the word of touchfuzzy (a senior Degica employee) that this was not censorship caused by an external complaint, I'm not sure what proof you would consider adequate.
     
    #36
  17. Dankovsky

    Dankovsky Veteran Veteran

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    I understand that it was not censorship caused by an external (public) complaint. But there are many forms of censorship.
    For example:
    Self-censorship is the act of censoring or classifying one's own discourse. This is done out of fear of, or deference to, the sensibilities or preferences (actual or perceived) of others and without overt pressure from any specific party or institution of authority.
    Likewise, when a company or artist changes their work to comply with real or likely threats or risks from government or non-government public bodies or even just public morals, to avoid possible loss of profits (which is probably the case here) it is also technically censorship. Your mileage might wary, of course, I don't want to get legal here with definitions.
    There are many, many cases of video game censorship: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regionally_censored_video_games
    Shadowverse is probably the most recent example.
    Anyway I don't think it would be productive to continue this discussion since clearly there are some very different views at work here.
     
    #37
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  18. Tuomo L

    Tuomo L Oldbie Veteran

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    ...What? He said it was unfortunate that not even touchfuzzy knew the answer? Did you just misread his reply?
     
    #38
  19. Kes

    Kes Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @Tuomo L
    He explicitly said that if a complaint had been made, it would have been received by him. No such complaint was made. So no, I do not believe that I have misread his post. I am chosing to read the whole of it, which not everyone seems to have done.

    If it were censorship, this sprite would have been changed as well. It was not.
    How do you explain a 'racier' sprite being allowed to stay if the other one was changed because of censorship. Your postion lacks logic.
     
    #39
  20. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @Tuomo L : It might have been more accurate before but it's hard at 48 x 48 pixels to make it look good and not garbage. Like I said, some of us showed the sprite and the old version to others and the 100% vote was sprite 2 is better. Granted, we had a small sample size, but still it seems more like sprite 2 in general. Maybe if the artists had more pixels to work with something like what you posted could turn out good still?

    Also one thing to remember everyone is @taarna23 is actually correct in that companies can change what they want when they want. If tomorrow they decide Harold has to be wearing a metal bikini bottom and Marsha is now a pink blob, then that is what we get going forward. And now that I said that, how long before we get a game where Marsha is a pink blob? :)
     
    #40
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