Change to People2 sprite

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Little Paw, Jun 22, 2018.

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  1. Touchfuzzy

    Touchfuzzy Rantagonist Staff Member Lead Eagle

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    Actual Translation: There are people on both sides who have good points, but too many people take things to places that are so extreme it becomes about finding enemies than finding solutions.

    I mean, the thing I wrote about writing diverse characters for the blog was that: If you write diverse characters, even if you don't mess it up, you will probably get attacked by people on both sides. Even if you write a perfectly realistic character, someone somewhere, either someone who insists it doesn't match their experience or someone who wants to call you an SJW ruining gaming will attack you. And probably both.

    But maybe you are so far to one side you can't tell a moderate from an extremist.

    (Also, I'm still annoyed about some of the changes made in Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE in the US release because they are a combination of nonsensical and make some scenes make less sense than they would otherwise. (changing the Gravure modeling section to just being about general photography made Tsubasa's reaction make very little sense, and the changes to the white dress she wears in one scene are both nonsensical and look terrible))

    LIKE SERIOUSLY THE CHANGES TO THE DRESS MAKE IT GO FROM LOOKING CUTE TO LOOKING LIKE A HORRENDOUS WHITE BLOB!

    Dress-JP.jpg
    Dress-EN.jpg

    The total lack of contrast is horrid. Also the edit is really really really lazy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
    #61
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  2. Little Paw

    Little Paw Veteran Veteran

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    Wait, woah woah. What? What in blazes are you even talking about? Totally aside from the discussion of the censorship of the sprite... I want to know what you even mean here? When did I ever do such a thing?
     
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  3. bgillisp

    bgillisp Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @Little Paw : It was pretty far in the past, but it shows up in your post history (I checked earlier this week). You got into a huge argument with Yanfly and as a result of that (and others who did the same) we no longer have a CTB script for MV which works with version 1.5 onward (that I know of).

    Granted, it was over 2 years ago, and people change, but it would be nice to not see a repeat here if possible in terms of how this change is dealt with.

    Edit: Side note: You know, this whole debate has made me realize one thing. One, I never use that sprite in my game, and two I don't know many who do as a playable character. Might be time to make one with this character as a main character?
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
    #63
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  4. shadefoundry

    shadefoundry Is Sinistar Veteran

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    So since my thoughts on this issue weren't moved by the mods, likely because it was easy to miss since the wall of irrelevant text was in a spoiler, I'm going to cut that part out of my initial post and move it here unedited:

    [​IMG]
    It's funny, I took a class on censorship a few years back and found that the people who complain the most about it are generally pretty ok with it when it suits them. The analogy used in our class discussions was that if you would refuse to show an r-18 horror film to a 6-year old then you're absolutely pro-censorship, at least on some base level, as you are in that situation absolutely denying that child the opportunity to access that work, which is indeed censorship. I would argue that it's impossible to not be pro-censorship at least to some extent, as censorship can be as simple as not showing something to somebody, therefore denying them access to it. If anything, I would argue that this change isn't censorship at all since it still remains readily available to the user assuming they're alright with doing the legwork of going back to a previous version of the engine.

    I'd also like to add on to this that not having an updated CTB script for MV is a dayum shame, since I had that on my list of battle systems to mess around with and now that's just not going to happen on the most recent version. :(
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
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  5. hero_buddy

    hero_buddy artist and pro cat petter Veteran

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    this is absolutely the case. humans are very self-serving creatures, and at the core of our being, is sexuality. makes sense, right? we need to have those instincts to continue as a species, right? so of course, you'd be cool with shielding a kid from some super graphic movie, but covering up breasts a bit more gets a reaction like this.

    sex sells, just look at any successful video game, pretty much ever. there's bound to be a scantily-clad lady tossed in there somewhere. people are used to well endowed women bouncing around the industry, so add even a little bit more clothing to an RPG maker NPC, and we get folks like this guy getting all defensive about it.

    it's just a few extra blue pixels. it's not censorship, you can have a far more skimpy character made in the character generator. this is all a matter of someone just being very self-serving. this isn't thread-worthy, just use the old version of the character. that's all you need to do, case closed.
     
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  6. trouble time

    trouble time Victorious Veteran

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    I don't think those things are really comparable though. The thought process is a bit different. For one thing, children generally don't have the same rights as adults, and it doesn't alter the work in any way. The other does alter the work. In one case an individual is effected, in the other everyone has to be effected.

    I had to refine my definition a bit earlier, but what you're doing with this comparison is saying that say, military censorship that comes with a secret or top secret security clearence is the same thing, acheives the same goal, and has the same intent as art censorship, which is about as logical as saying green and orange are the same thing because both fit into the category of color.
     
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  7. Kes

    Kes Global Moderators Global Mod

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    @shadefoundry My apologies for not including your post when I did the transfers. You're right, I missed it because it was inside a spoiler.
     
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  8. TheoAllen

    TheoAllen Self-proclaimed jack of all trades Veteran

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    The topic title appears normal and kinda not interesting. Until I know it reached 4 pages which looks controversial, so apparently, it is.

    There was a similar 'accident' on a web game I was playing. It's a japanese web game, that has English version. Both has same server, just translated UI and original Japanese UI, that apparently they censored an image on English version. There was a blow up discussion about in on reddit why it happened and I read some of angry responses too.

    I get it while I didn't really mind if and just shrugged off. Because you're playing a game you have no control over it. If you want to play the uncensored ver, you have to switch to Japanese UI which it was not acceptable.

    Now I'm not sure if MV made a similar move with similar reason that I don't know what was their reason. However, this is a game engine. You have a total control over it! You can even strips all the characters to make a fully adult game because why you can not? While you have a right of questioning why it happened, but angry because of it doesn't feel right.

    Are you saying since now and later, people would use less skimpy sprite because they didn't know the previous version is not acceptable? They have a total control over their sprites. And if they notice that this dancer needs more exposure, they can edit it. And if we still have previous version, and a dev think they need to censor the sprite, they have a right for it. If majority doesn't even bother about it and not even notice the difference, it's really not a big deal.
     
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  9. Dankovsky

    Dankovsky Veteran Veteran

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    I really wanted to stop posting on this issue, but...
    I feel like this is the central argument for those who don't oppose the change, but it comes off as ignorant to me.

    If the assumed majority doesn't know or care about something, it does not automatically make it "not a big deal".
    And there's a big difference between "I personally don't mind censorship in this case" or "censorship is legal so they're free to do as they please" and saying "censorship is not a big deal" (or even sometimes "screw you disgusting pervs").
    Games and japanese games in particular suffer from censorship every day, perhaps even more often than other forms of art. So I just don't think it's healthy to create a community where random artistic censorship is accepted as "part of the experience" and "not a big deal".

    So even as a person who doesn't think it's "a big deal" and feels like the reaction of some of the commenters is out of proportion, I still feel I need to declare that this is not okay, and I would not like this happening to RPG Maker again. Because tolerating "a little censorship" sounds a lot like tolerating "a little slavery". Is it really okay if it's just "a little"?
     
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  10. TheoAllen

    TheoAllen Self-proclaimed jack of all trades Veteran

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    @Dankovsky Sure, that could work in different kind of censorship. But man, you're ignoring my whole points and just pick one minor point, then talk about it only. We sure can talk censorship in different matter, how censorship works in distributed games, and so on. Feel free to rage about a censored game to a developer when they decided to change their game asset or so.

    But we're talking about game resources and game engine. I don't understand why it's a big deal in this matter. Are you saying it's a big deal since people would began to use more censored RTP games made by this engine because they don't know the prior version of a sprite? tell me, why? Neither of your points answered this question. A RM dev hav power to change their asset if they find it's not appropriate.

    Again, I think you still have right questioning why it changed, but at the point of refusing to buy degica product just because of this is just silly. Unless they don't give you permission to edit their resources.

    And I have no idea what is the relation of censorship and slavery.
     
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  11. Celianna

    Celianna Tileset artist Global Mod

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    The first time I saw your post about the 'censorship' I rolled my eyes.

    I'm still rolling my eyes.

    If this were censorship, they'd adjust all sprites. Since they didn't, clearly it was the artist that thought "Hmm, I just played Breath of the Wild and Link looked super cute, so I'm going to add some pants on this sprite!"

    Even if it were... it's their product. I'm totally for 'censorship' on a person's own work, forum, website etc. Hooray for people minding what they say and show to the world.
     
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  12. trouble time

    trouble time Victorious Veteran

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    I know right, its was so great when they censored the homosexual (sort of) relationships in steven universe. Clearly it was to make a Sailor Moon refrence.
     
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  13. Celianna

    Celianna Tileset artist Global Mod

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    It's also super great people don't find out where you live and send you death threats, because we enforce people here to be kind and ban people who break our rules. Thank god this place isn't like 4chan.

    See, I can come up with scenarios as well.
     
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  14. trouble time

    trouble time Victorious Veteran

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    Sorry i dont actually see how these things connect. Did i break the rules somehow?
     
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  15. Celianna

    Celianna Tileset artist Global Mod

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    No, it was an example. Just like you mentioning an example to prove your case why censorship is bad, I showed you an example where censorship makes your life that much more tolerable on this forum.

    Censorship doesn't have to mean hide your minorities, cover up your brutal history, or take away your right to exercise your free speech. It's also the way laws work; you can't yell fire in a movie theater without getting fined for it. It's why you can't send someone harassing messages over and over, telling them to kill themselves.

    Without minding what we say and where we say it, the world becomes a terrible place. You do not want people to have free reign and let them trample on others, all under the guise of "muh free speech" and "censorship is bad!"

    In this instance, OP thinks a sprite now wearing pants and having more detail around the neck is censorship. OP is seeing his own enemies where there are none, chasing ghosts. This has absolutely nothing to do with censorship, it is literally an artistic decision because the artist probably thought it looked better like that.
     
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  16. trouble time

    trouble time Victorious Veteran

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    I menyioned this earleir, bit i dont think all forms of censorship are equivelent, i personally dont like art censorship but in this case A. I choose to believe touchfuzzy and B. This is a game engine not a game. However, i do disagree on the point that free speech is a bad thing. Though that might not actually be what you're saying. I do think people shouldnt harass or threaten others, as long as any policies about harassment are enforced impartially, but thats a discussion for another time, and better suited for another forum than this one.

    Also i can see why littlepaw thought it was censorship, or really why anyone could see it as an artist self cenoring, theres a constant push for people to cover up women in games, like the kotaku article on Ivy from soul caliber or the people pushing for Japanime games to change the artwork in Kamigami battles, they get a lot of harassment over that kind of stuff. Touchfuzzy said that wasnt the case here though.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
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  17. Arin

    Arin Tonight...we dine...in-oh a piece of candy! Veteran

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    Honestly, this is just petty.

    Not even worth the popcorn anymore, this is just straight up pitiful.

    I'm gonna be blunt here for a second, so pardon my language.

    I like boobs. You can let them hang out with massive amounts of cleavage in public, I don't care. You can also have them covered up and I'd be totally fine with it. Because that is what it means to be respectful in this day and age. Chasing a perverted fantasy over a sprite and then calling for heads to be rolling when they censored something as inscrutable as a few pixels is honestly derogatory to not only women, but the artist who actually made the sprite. You know some women DON'T want to be sexualized like that? Because some women actually respect their body enough to cover it up? Yet here you are disrespecting the artist's choice in making their sprite what they want it to look like.

    If a female artist actually made the sprite, that's fine. More power to them. If it was a male artist, that's fine, too. There could have been legal complications that we don't know about. Maybe it just looks better that way.

    Men in this age are pretty disgusting. I should know, I am one. But that doesn't excuse calling for blatant destruction and disrupting the forum behavior over something as minuscule as this.
     
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  18. trouble time

    trouble time Victorious Veteran

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    Whoa now, are you saying women that dont cover up don't respect themselves?
     
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  19. Kyuukon

    Kyuukon 主人公 Veteran

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    Did you just assume the sprite gender?!

    :troll:

    (srry)
     
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  20. hiddenone

    hiddenone Lurker Extraordinaire Moderator

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    @Kyuukon Welp, now I want to make a short game starring the trap belly dancer (along with the pink blob marsha mentioned earlier... this is gonna be a weird game). :guffaw:
     
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