Change to People2 sprite

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mlogan

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Yes, the difference is that Arin was generalizing, you were specifically name calling. And no, I did not like his message where he called men disgusting, but one in which he was talking about respect.
 

Bellflowers

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@Bellflowers you explicitly calling names to some members here. It's an insult.
I don't think we should really be playing nice with people who deny women's humanity, but i dont want to break the rules.

Alright. I've looked at this thread, I debated on staying away from it because it's a hot mess, but I'll weigh my opinion in on this whole censorship ordeal.

As far as that particular sprite goes, who cares? the resolution most of these things are drawn at, it doesn't make that big of a difference. I almost feel like the point of this post was to bait an argument.

Personal opinion on that a side, Censorship is a messy ordeal. If you want a male/female character who by definition is a sultry character, and that gets censored for the fact of making it more friendly, that in a way is compromising the original works of said author and causing him to have to change parts of his story to rewrite the story to make this basically new character fit into the plot.

There is nothing wrong with sexualized characters in my opinion as long as it serves a purpose to the characters origin and story.

Now if the characters are just there to be objects for eye candy and have no depth and are just meant to be there to be sexy, that is a case where I feel censorship is needed.

This is too broad of a topic to jot down all my thoughts.

The post by @Touchfuzzy is actually a great example of senseless censorship.

Well, to cap off what I basically was getting to before getting tangled in the mess of cords that is censorship, Small res, pixels, slightly different shade that looks like it is to imply shadows. It's really not a good argument to have.

And especially when Censorship is based off of cultural sensitivities and looks something like this:

I don't agree. there's never a reason to do these "sexy" character designs, they don't have to have a character who it would "make sense" (as if that were possible) to be designed a sex object. There is definitely something wrong with sexualuzed characters.
 
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trouble time

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Im not going to do a full response to @Bellflowers because im tired, and i decided to wait to reply and while the bantz would ve legendary iy doesnt fit here, but i just wanna say, my character designs are fine, sexuality is fine, and im actually black.
 

Bellflowers

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Im not going to do a full response to @Bellflowers because im tired, and i decided to wait to reply and while the bantz would ve legendary iy doesnt fit here, but i just wanna say, my character designs are fine, sexuality is fine, and im actually black.
Uh huh. Yup. Sure. A POC with a skinhead as his profile pic. Totally. Im sure. Absolutely.
 

Adonael

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I don't think we should really be playing nice with people who deny women's humanity, but i dont want to break the rules.



I don't agree. there's never a reason to do these "sexy" character designs, they dont have to have a character who it would "make sense" (as if that were possible) to be designed a sex object. There is definitely somethibg wrong with sexualuzed characters.
You really didn't read my post or understand it did You?
 

trouble time

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Uh huh. Yup. Sure. A POC with a skinhead as his profile pic. Totally. Im sure. Absolutely.
But Lorgar's my guy.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Lorgar

I mean i guess i do like vulkan but the traitor ptimarchs are almost all cooler than the loyalists because theyre so flawed. I mean Lorgar's quest yo find something to believe in eventually leafing him to daemonology and corruption is powerful stuff.
 

Bellflowers

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You really didn't read my post or understand it did You?
I understand your post. What I'm saying is that you don't have to create a character that is sexual based on their origin because as a writer you control their origin. Swap out your chain-thong amazon for a culture that values actual armor and you never need to make that kind of character. Swap out a succubus for literally any other lind of monster. Even if theres some in universe explaination or story to it, it doesnt have to be there."
 

mlogan

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It doesn't have to be, but if they choose to put it in there, they are free to do so.
 

Kyuukon

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@Bellflowers Why would he do that if he liked that? It's his work we're talking about, stop trying to censor it to fit your political views. You are free to write/draw whatever you wish on yours.
 

Vox Novus

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So I read through this thread and I gathered at some point it was a merging but I'm not even sure what we are trying to talk about here anymore (which is generally a sign that things have started getting toxic or the discussion is starting to run its course). It doesn't seem to be about the sprite change per se anymore. Which as far as I'm concerned is something I'm not going to take a real guess at. Maybe they decided to censor it to make it conform to a global market more and make it consistent for all people in their market, maybe it was simply some artistic choice like Cel said, literally maybe its just someone banking on a look from a popular game. I don't think assuming either way on something helps with this, its not going to get anyone closer to getting an answer and all its really doing is creating some sort of division in our forum that I don't think it really needs.

It seems the discussion is moving towards more being about sexuality in characters and how that's shown and if that's okay? I'm not particularly for all the goofy way female characters tend to be overly sexualized; like unrealistic armors and what have you mostly because it ruins the sense of immersion and realism which many games strive to obtain; It happens to men in games as well, although less so and in different ways often.
I'm not going to say its wrong though, if people enjoy something in particular like that in their games then that's fine by me. Games are meant to appeal to different types of people from the get go. If people enjoy their muscle bound guys/over masculine warriors, etc... or scantily clad women, etc...in their games then there is a gametype for them. For other people there are other games, I'm not also going to try and fathom all the reasons why a company might choose to censor something but one reason might legitimately be to make their product more appealing to more people, which is frankly just good business sense a lot of the time.

As developers we can create our worlds and games how we see fit and we can try to make them how we desire them and for whom we desire them. If you want your game to have that sense of sexuality have it, if you don't that's fine to in my opinion. I also think one thing gets overlooked with sexuality in characters; the discussion is often it doesn't have to be there or its okay but I think often it gets ignored on whether its right for the world, the audience you are presenting to and if its right for the character. If you are trying to build a realistic world with your game, sexuality is one aspect of that as its part of real life and real people. Some people display their sexuality more than others, some people don't. Often times I think it gets overlooked that sexuality can be an actual trait of some specific individuals. For some of those individuals they might have a multitude of reasons, maybe it empowers them, maybe they use their sexuality to their advantage, or maybe they've become caught up in their own appearance and ego, maybe its how they feel comfortable.
 

Bellflowers

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It doesn't have to be, but if they choose to put it in there, they are free to do so.
Yes they can do that but they really shouldn't. Its like @Celianna said "Hooray for people minding what they say and show to the world.


@Bellflowers Why would he do that if he liked that? It's his work we're talking about, stop trying to censor it to fit your political views. You are free to write/draw whatever you wish on yours.
How is this censorship, suggesting that it is is basically saying that any criticism of anything is censorship. For one he wasn't talking about a game, I mean I mentioned someone else shouldn't have done their art the way they did earlier (and I stand by that, I don't think you'd disagree if you saw it) but not to Adonael. Its been established that when a creator chooses to change their work that its not really censorship its just someone choosing to do the right thing.


So I read through this thread and I gathered at some point it was a merging but I'm not even sure what we are trying to talk about here anymore (which is generally a sign that things have started getting toxic or the discussion is starting to run its course). It doesn't seem to be about the sprite change per se anymore. Which as far as I'm concerned is something I'm not going to take a real guess at. Maybe they decided to censor it to make it conform to a global market more and make it consistent for all people in their market, maybe it was simply some artistic choice like Cel said, literally maybe its just someone banking on a look from a popular game. I don't think assuming either way on something helps with this, its not going to get anyone closer to getting an answer and all its really doing is creating some sort of division in our forum that I don't think it really needs.

It seems the discussion is moving towards more being about sexuality in characters and how that's shown and if that's okay? I'm not particularly for all the goofy way female characters tend to be overly sexualized; like unrealistic armors and what have you mostly because it ruins the sense of immersion and realism which many games strive to obtain; It happens to men in games as well, although less so and in different ways often.
I'm not going to say its wrong though, if people enjoy something in particular like that in their games then that's fine by me. Games are meant to appeal to different types of people from the get go. If people enjoy their muscle bound guys/over masculine warriors, etc... or scantily clad women, etc...in their games then there is a gametype for them. For other people there are other games, I'm not also going to try and fathom all the reasons why a company might choose to censor something but one reason might legitimately be to make their product more appealing to more people, which is frankly just good business sense a lot of the time.

As developers we can create our worlds and games how we see fit and we can try to make them how we desire them and for whom we desire them. If you want your game to have that sense of sexuality have it, if you don't that's fine to in my opinion. I also think one thing gets overlooked with sexuality in characters; the discussion is often it doesn't have to be there or its okay but I think often it gets ignored on whether its right for the world, the audience you are presenting to and if its right for the character. If you are trying to build a realistic world with your game, sexuality is one aspect of that as its part of real life and real people. Some people display their sexuality more than others, some people don't. Often times I think it gets overlooked that sexuality can be an actual trait of some specific individuals. For some of those individuals they might have a multitude of reasons, maybe it empowers them, maybe they use their sexuality to their advantage, or maybe they've become caught up in their own appearance and ego, maybe its how they feel comfortable.
its not just some simple thing though, I'm saying that the way things are over-sexualized is hurting people, it leads to the victimization of women. Sure some people like those games, but some people also like to murder small animals and that's wrong just like this is
 

Vox Novus

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@Bellflowers That's a generalization and being exposed to some sexualized characters in a video game is not going to make any reasonable moral person into someone who wants to harm women. Also making the assumption you aren't referring to things like hunting either with your ending statement, comparing people who like sexy characters with someone who kills small animals for pleasure is an extreme and inaccurate comparison.
 

Bellflowers

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@Bellflowers That's a generalization and being exposed to some sexualized characters in a video game is not going to make any reasonable moral person into someone who wants to harm women. Also making the assumption you aren't referring to things like hunting either with your ending statement, comparing people who like sexy characters with someone who kills small animals for pleasure is an extreme and inaccurate comparison.
just cause something is a generalization doesn't mean its innaccurate. and my comparison wasn't the best (its late where I am), but I stand by my statement. Its not about "reasonable moral people" cause reasonable moral people can see the kind of harm that's done. If it really didn't affect people then nothing would ever need to be changed anyway.
 

Vox Novus

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@Bellflowers I think you and the discussion are getting far beyond the scope of game development now if you are going to go into what your definition of moral or reasonable people is (and granted I lead you into that). You are also choosing to look at and make inferences from bad cases without looking at the whole (you are generalizing the entirety of sexy characters in games, specifically the depiction of women and making a blanket statement about the people that play those games). Thinking you can reasonably label a large group of people like that is a gross misnomer.
 

Bellflowers

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@Vox Novus I already explained that as developers people can choose what to put in there games, any justification for sexy character designs is also made up and not a shield against criticism. They don't have to be that way. It flat out sends a harmful message when people portray women as sex objects and because whatever explanation some one comes up with is just as fictional as the boobs it doesn't matter the justification. The realism excuse doesn't fly either, i mean people don't have health bars or respawn in real life, and as far as i know the vast majority if video game armors don't bother with helmets and pauldrons are usually way too big. They used a similar excuse to exclude POC from Kingdom Come: Deliverance, and it doesn't work there either. Its a game, sacrifices to realism are made for fun, but that also shouldn't excuse harmful messages
 

Vox Novus

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@Bellflowers Just because games have functional unrealistic elements like a health bar doesn't mean they cant still evoke realism and immersion in other aspects. I answered you in my initial comment, I raised the thought if you are trying to portray a realistic world, a setting, a story; does not sexuality factor in to that (paraphrasing myself)? Can it not factor into that? Sexuality is a genuine real life trait some individuals show, simply choosing to not express it in a setting with characters that are meant to be life-like or based on real life is ignoring something about people that some people legitimately express. Should we ignore anger, hatred, sadness, pain, violence? Should we ignore every setting where those types of things would be expressed just because we as developers can, If you don't personally want to that's fine, if that's not your audience that's fine. That's not what you chose to respond to me about though, you chose to respond with a generalization for how you view the types of people who play sexy games and somehow came up with a comparison to people who have psychological issues and murder animals for pleasure. Notably to, I was not even specifically talking about sexuality and women but that's what you made it about.
 

Bellflowers

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@Vox Novus i already said the comparison wasn't the best, and realism doesn't hold any relevance. You addressed the health bars, but not things like lacking helmets or stupid armor 'designs like...well any armor in Warcraft really. In fact realism is often sacrificed to make games more fun. Its more consistency and relatability people look for in games but they say realism even if that's not the most accurate, its better you strive not to break suspension of disbelief, its why people can get immersed in completely bizarre settings because the world fits together. That's why people can accept giant swords and space ships. Displaying sexy characters is different than displaying hatred or violence, those can be displayed negatively without something like sexy villianess which is its own problem. Violence also isn't as complex a thing as sexuality, its why children's media can,be fairly violent but sex is basically kept out.
 

Kes

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To suggest that violence isn't as complex a thing as sexuality is to ignore the vast amount of research into the subject.

This thread has moved far from the OP's question about a particular sprite. If it continues to do so, I shall conclude that the original discussion has run its course and will close the thread.
 

Adonael

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I understand your post. What I'm saying is that you don't have to create a character that is sexual based on their origin because as a writer you control their origin. Swap out your chain-thong amazon for a culture that values actual armor and you never need to make that kind of character. Swap out a succubus for literally any other lind of monster. Even if theres some in universe explaination or story to it, it doesnt have to be there."
A waitress often dresses in tight close and a a revealing top and also, not always, flirts in way to get tips.

Males even do this. Wearing shirts to show off their arms or in some establishments wear nothing but speedos showing off their whole body to make tips and money.

What if you want to make something historically accurate? Brothels were comment place where both women and men, yeah men, are paid to act sexual and well, we all know what happens there.

What if it's a character by design flaunts their sexuality? I know plenty of women and men alike that do this.

God forbid having a woman in a bikini on a hot summer beach right?

The view you share @Bellflowers is not a mature one or a logical one. I know women are very competitive and I don't understand why so many have problems with women/ media they think are sexier than they are or what have you, but the real issue is the toxicity and animosity women have toward one another.

You can't realistically ignore sexuality whether or not it is in books, movies, games, etc. I would go into detail citing sources and why, but as the moderator already said, this post is on the verge of closing.

Also, just because someone is being portrayed as sexy does not automatically qualify as that person being treated as an object. Fem's have really skewed that word.

To be treated like an object is to be possessed and only there for the user's enjoyment when they want you. That's the end all be all of it.

So if the character is sexy and acts sexy, yet is portrayed with love and depth of character, they are treated as a character and not fan service or a way to see women/men as sexual objects as you implied.
 
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