Changing "north" on a map

[Doktor_Q]

In most 2D RPGs, the camera angle is pretty constant- up is north, down is south, east right, and west left. This helps the player keep oriented, and helps maps feel congruent.


But what about times when that gets restrictive? What if there's a cliff to the south overlooking the ocean, and you want to show off the horizon in the background?


When does changing the camera's "orientation" work, and when does it just become needlessly confusing? If you DO go ahead and rotate it, should you provide some kind of indicator, like a compass rose?

 

[Andar]

First problem here is that the RMs cannot rotate a map, all maps have a fixed perspective. You can make different maps for different points of view, but since that is done by transfer is usually doesn't confuse anyone , they just consider that different maps.


That said, in general it depends on the question if the player has to know where north is. Most games (including non-RM-Games) usually have linear levels where the player has no need to know the direction.


If there is a need to know the direction (for example for finding the quest targets), then a compass might be helpfull - but please, no radar and no guidance arrows.


If I wanted to follow a fixed story, I'll watch a DVD - if I want to play, then I want to be the one who chooses the direction and not somw auto-guidance-arrow.

 

[Doktor_Q]

To give a better example, let's take something like pokemon with a nice, continuous map- now lets say for a stretch of that world, I wan the background to be looking to the west, so I make a map that is entered by going up, but moves the player from left to right ("up" is west), then the next map goes back to up as north. For the duration of that map, the camera is oriented differently, with respect to the world map as a whole.


An example I've seen more recently- the player enters a building through a door on the "top" face, but once inside the door is at the bottom of the map. The camera was 'rotated' when they entered.


Aside from the momentary confusion when you change maps and the directions change, I feel like it could make in-game directions move confusing- if the camera is 'rotated' to show the ocean to the west as above them, but they know the ocean is to the south, would that feel like a contradiction?

 

[Revival]

The inherent problem with this idea is rather simple.  RPG Maker is not 2D - it's more of a 2.5D because it does in fact use shading to try and represent the illusion of height, width and depth.  It's 2D that pretends to be 3D.  You are seeing it from a looking down+forward perspective versus a straight up down perspective.

True 2D would be something more like the old Grand Theft Auto Games (even though they are also technically 2.5, they more closely represent 2D games) and in a game like this map rotation would be fine, especially if the player had control - but in terms of games made in RPG Maker?  Not even worth the effort, you're really just better off making new maps for things like the ocean cliff, as Andar said.  I actually do this in my mapping, quite often, though the player may not even be aware they've been reoriented - I feel in the case of MY game, were I to add such a compass it may actually confuse the player's movements, but my game is also pretty linear.  And having the map change from S to N upon transfer could be confusing, making the player go back through the door they just came through.  I do my rotations on transfer, so just like Ander said, the player isn't even aware it happens.

But yes, the problem here is if you actually want them to be aware, and want to rotate the map then all of the graphics, walls, etc. will have to be re-mapped for every direction, due to the fact that RPG maker is 2.5D and not 2D.  If you have no problem mapping every single map 4 times from each angle, then you could do this, but it seems like it would take alot of effort for very little payoff.

EDIT: After looking at your comment I think you misunderstood what you saw, if they entered from the top and came from the bottom - it's not that the camera rotated, it was part of the transfer event - there is an option to make it so that on tranfer you face a certain direction, so even if you transfered from facing down, you could be facing up upon entering the next map.  Nothing is actually rotated but the player, in that instance.     

 

[eadgear]

But yes, the problem here is if you actually want them to be aware, and want to rotate the map then all of the graphics, walls, etc. will have to be re-mapped for every direction, due to the fact that RPG maker is 2.5D and not 2D.  If you have no problem mapping every single map 4 times from each angle, then you could do this, but it seems like it would take alot of effort for very little payoff.

I agree with @Revival. If you want something like rotating map, you have to remap everything.


Actually I just got idea no how it works but remapping, cut scenes and triggered events are necessary. It will be something like this, no compass needed and no direction to make the game more exciting. A player entered a city, an event triggered on his left side. Something like a trouble of shouting people not visible to scene. The player automatically look on his left. A cut scene of a people running and a monster behind them. When returned to the map. The map is already rotated where the player is looking upward.


that's how I think it would works that is what you might thought also.

 

[Doktor_Q]

I wasn't thinking about a single map being viewed from multiple angles, though now that you mention it that could be used to interesting effect if you're willing to put in the work.

 

[Dr. Delibird]

@Revival, I am sorry but where exactly are you getting half a dimension from? RM games ARE 2D and here is why, they have an X axis and a Y axis. 3D has the added Z axis. There is no such thing as half a Z axis because if Z exists at all then it is a whole dimension. So you would have to be creating a whole new dimension just to make up for the fact that Z cannot be halved. Besides that, that inclusion of shading in a 2D landscape does not make it something other than 2D. In addition, having multiple layers of graphics (ie shading tool in RM for example or a shading layer in photoshop) does not make it something other than 2D. The only thing that makes 2D not 2D is either the addition of the Z axis or the taking away of the Y axis (iirc, it might be the X axis or either). This wraps back to my point of, where are you getting the .5 from? 


OT: Having the map rotation change on map transfer has happened in more games than a lot of people might realise simply because most games do not have a way for you to check or change the current rotation. As long as the positioning of the maps makes sense overall then it doesn't matter too much which direction north is, whether the player can find north or not (though I would advise against it if your game has a compass that is readily accessable because it will be that that confuses players and not the actual changing of percpective). 

 

[Kes]

It's 2.5. See any of the posts by Celiana explaining the perspective.  It's why you can see the tops of e.g.  cupboards.  If it were 2 you couldn't. 

 

[consolcwby]

It's 2.5. See any of the posts by Celiana explaining the perspective.  

From everything I've ever heard or discussed, 2.5d is a pseudo 3-d (billboarded) projection from a 2d map (like wolfenstein or blood) while RM is a parallel projection (and a pretty flat one too) like the old squaresoft 2d games. The tutorials for VxAce even mentions this. I'm not sure why forced perspective is being called 2.5d - maybe I spent TOO much time at Software Creations BBS way back when, but this is how it was explained to me.

 

[LaFlibuste]

This is an interesting discussion, I was wondering more or less the same thing. My game takes place in a single city and the player will have to be able to navigate the city themselves (using a map, likely), but some streets are N-S and might be more interesting if viewed from a different perspective (especially if there are buildings to enter on one side or another). So yeah, I likely will have different maps with different orientations, but the compass idea is a good one, might help the player keeping track of where he is...

 

[Wavelength]

But what about times when that gets restrictive? What if there's a cliff to the south overlooking the ocean, and you want to show off the horizon in the background?

At times like this, the best solution is to have the cliff overlook the ocean to its North instead.

When does changing the camera's "orientation" work, and when does it just become needlessly confusing? If you DO go ahead and rotate it, should you provide some kind of indicator, like a compass rose?

Putting a compass there is going to confuse the hell out of most players.  If you feel the need to rotate it (instead of the simpler solution of placing ocean to the Map's north instead of west), don't add a compass, don't explain at all, don't even have your characters mention directions.


For cutscenes (rather than navigation across a map), you can get away with putting anything anywhere - I think players will feel fine assuming that the "camera" happened to be behind the characters in any direction as they watch two characters looking out onto the horizon.

...but please, no radar and no guidance arrows.


If I wanted to follow a fixed story, I'll watch a DVD - if I want to play, then I want to be the one who chooses the direction and not somw auto-guidance-arrow.

Some players certainly do like finding their own way, but some (including myself) find it incredibly annoying.  To follow the analogy - If I wanted to spend time finding things, I'd go Orienteering.  If I want to play a video game, then I want to get there as quickly as possible and do something interesting (combat, dungeon running, dialogue trees, strategy, puzzles, even shopping if it's not a gear treadmill) instead of spending a lot of time walking around lost.


Your version of "fun" is every bit as valid as mine of course, but in my opinion it's bad advice to tell people don't provide guidance in getting to destinations.  If the guidance arrows breaks immersion a little and errs on the side of treating the player like an idiot, at least it's preventing the player from becoming incredibly frustrated as they waste hours wandering around wondering how to trip the next plot flag (or look it up in an FAQ and completely break immersion).