Charging for Tilesets

[Ruby]

How much would you offer someone for a fully custom tileset?

I just got in touch with someone from DeviantArt, and she charges $30 per hour that she works on them. She also said that it would take 12-15 hours, which is a price of about $360-$420.

I have about $1,000 to offer. Is that too little of an offer for a full tileset? I asked her for a lot, so I know I would give her more than $420.

My question is simple: How much would you OFFER someone for a fully custom tileset, and where do you draw the limit on what is too much for you, and too little for the artist?

Thanks!

(P.S. I KNOW this has been kind of discussed before, but it usually ends in a way that "Artists aren't paid enough/they charge too little", and I'd prefer if it didn't go down the path of hostility on all sides. Thanks.)

 

[Zoltor]

Lmao that's an insane pricing method(you can get high quality/detailed color char portraits all day long for that price, and usually even cheaper. (a artist who charges by the hour "mainly" opposed to standardizing their prices base on the type of pieces for the most part, just brings up red flags). Why does this scream scam you may ask, because when you commission art, the artist can't see the picture in you mind, which inturn means, they wont come out exactly like you want right away. The artist is gonna do what they think you want, then they'll show you a preliminary pic(omfg in this case, there's a lot of this going on, because each tilie is a separate pic more or less), they you'll ask for various edits/changes, rinse, wash, repeat until you are happy.

However perhaps I'm jumping the gun here, so let me ask some questions: How many tiles are gonna be in the tileset? How detailed are each tile?

In any case, especially for things like tilesets/having a metric ton of pics being made, I would avoid someone who supposedly uses time spent(which differs in every case, so It's not a exact formula) as the main method of pricing.

 

[Galenmereth]

Ok, seriously, charging per the hour doesn't mean it's a scam. Don't be so quick with throwing that word around, please. I know many artists that charge set prices for art, and I also know many artists who charge per the hour. Equally I know many programmers that estimate and charge one set sum for a job, and others who charge per hour. I'm among the latter myself, usually, and I charge $125 / hour (converted from Norwegian Kroner). The internet is a global marketplace.

 

[DarkstarMatryx]

My answer is rather simple, at least I think it is.  1.  I don't get paid that much per hour in my day job as such even if this is the artists day job I myself would find a hard time validating paying them more per hour than I make.  Now that is in no way saying that the end result wouldn't be worthy of the cost. So in any case that I bought art I would be looking at samples of what they have already done before I could ever validate the cost.  I'm that way in all things though.  I just bought licenses for code that I could have probably eventually developed, but the cost vs the time it would take me to make it myself ended up being obvious that it was better to just buy the code than spend the time to figure it out at this moment.

 

[Zoltor]

Ok, seriously, charging per the hour doesn't mean it's a scam. Don't be so quick with throwing that word around, please. I know many artists that charge set prices for art, and I also know many artists who charge per the hour. Equally I know many programmers that estimate and charge one set sum for a job, and others who charge per hour. I'm among the latter myself, usually, and I charge $125 / hour (converted from Norwegian Kroner). The internet is a global marketplace.

It's true the artist may be legit, and "truthful" about the hours they work, my bad I shoul've stated that, however It's a really bad idea to pay a artist by the hour when there's potentially dozens of pictures being commissioned, that's just asking for trouble, because even if the artist Isn't scamming, a price estimate is impossible(due to the back, and fourth changes), so you'll be stuck paying whatever random/insane amount it comes to.

 

[mlogan]

I'm intrigued that she's says she can make a fully custom tileset in 12-15 hours. I mean, I know that I'm slow at any graphical type art, but just from what I've seen of the very experienced artists here, it takes a lot longer than that to make a full tileset.

That aside, I think $30/hour is a very good rate and if that is her rate and you feel like the quality of the rate is worth it, then I would just go with it. If it takes her longer to do what you are asking, then won't she charge more?

The only other piece of advice I have is to get it in writing, even if it is just email communication back and forth (if she doesn't offer a contract). Be sure you specify exactly what you are wanting done and get her to respond with her estimated price (for example, what she stated above) as well perhaps an agreed upon maximum price. (For example, she expects to charge $420 but won't charge over $800 or whatever). Also have her state what the price includes - does it include any revisions? If so, how many revisions? Anything else you can think of, put it in there. And keep all communication with her just in case there are any problems. For something like that, I might also see if she has any references of satisfied customers.

 

[Jesse - PVGames]

A full custom tileset (A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, B, C, D, E tilesheets) in 12-15 hours for only $30/hour? 

Seems highly unlikely. For people who make graphic packs and such for sale, it takes months and months of work for basically just the aforementioned tilesheets. I would maybe believe it slightly more if it was 12-15 hours for one sheet, but I suppose it also depends on the overall quality.

Edit: Not saying that she is lying or is scamming or anything, but numbers like those certainly require some scrutiny. 

 

[Zoltor]

A full custom tileset (A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, B, C, D, E tilesheets) in 12-15 hours for only $30/hour? 

Seems highly unlikely. For people who make graphic packs and such for sale, it takes months and months of work for basically just the aforementioned tilesheets. I would maybe believe it slightly more if it was 12-15 hours for one sheet, but I suppose it also depends on the overall quality.

Edit: Not saying that she is lying or is scamming or anything, but numbers like those certainly require some scrutiny. 

Lol yea, I highly doubt that's what the artist meant(as It's literally impossible) I'm pretty sure he/she meant a single tileset, not a entire array of tilesets for Ace. Also even then, the artist didn't state how many tiles are in this so called full tileset(well atleast the OP didn't post that info, if she got it, anyway).

 

[Sharm]

It's only the amateur pixel artists who charge by the picture, all the professional pixel artists I know (and I know quite a few, a number of whom have worked on AAA console games) charge by the hour.  $30 an hour is a pretty normal rate for a pro, or at least it was last I checked, and the people who can charge that are going to be at least around my level of quality or better.

Saying "fully custom set" is really vague.  How expansive is that set?  Is there just going to be one house type, one tree, one type of grass?  Or is it going to need to represent a better variety?  Is it going to be simple art or really detailed?  How many change requests are you allowed to make?  All of these things make a huge difference in the price tag.

The last full RPG set I did for a customer I was paid over 2k and it was in a simple style.  I think I was charging 20 an hour back then?  I can't remember.  Anyway, my clients were extremely happy with my work and would have likely paid much more.  In fact, they gave me a bonus because they thought I had been paid too little for the quality and effort.  I've mostly done smaller sets since then and my price has gone up as I've gained skill.  I would probably charge at least 30 for my work now.  I'm not sure how helpful that is.

I know the art styles of most of the English speaking professional pixel artists, especially the ones who can realistically charge that much an hour.  If you're really worried about it, PM me their DA account, I'll look into it and tell you what I know about them and their work ethic.  If it's not for pixel art then I'm afraid I probably won't be able to help you, I'm not as familiar with other types of tile artists.

 

[Galenmereth]

Most professionals will indeed charge per the hour, like Sharm says.

however It's a really bad idea to pay a artist by the hour when there's potentially dozens of pictures being commissioned, that's just asking for trouble, because even if the artist Isn't scamming, a price estimate is impossible(due to the back, and fourth changes), so you'll be stuck paying whatever random/insane amount it comes to.

But if the artist doesn't charge per the hour, the artist takes all the risk. This isn't right either. While I can't speak for artists, the way I do this with my programming jobs is that I give an upfront estimate, but I also make my client aware that it could take longer, especially if specifications and other things change underway. I will also usually estimate about three times as much time as I believe I will require for the task -- and that estimate is usually almost right on the clock when everything is said and done, which is interesting. But I will always give prior notice in good time if I believe I will require more time than estimated, so that a dialogue can be held as far in advance as possible. This is the only feasible professional way to work if you want to stay afloat financially. The larger a project is, the greater the chance is that some elements of the job has been misunderstood slightly by either party, no matter how good the design / planning documentation is. And that's also one of the reasons I add extra time to what I "believe" will be required: human time estimation has a tendency to be severely optimistic.

 

[Zoltor]

Most professionals will indeed charge per the hour, like Sharm says.

But if the artist doesn't charge per the hour, the artist takes all the risk. This isn't right either. While I can't speak for artists, the way I do this with my programming jobs is that I give an upfront estimate, but I also make my client aware that it could take longer, especially if specifications and other things change underway. I will also usually estimate about three times as much time as I believe I will require for the task -- and that estimate is usually almost right on the clock when everything is said and done, which is interesting. But I will always give prior notice in good time if I believe I will require more time than estimated, so that a dialogue can be held as far in advance as possible. This is the only feasible professional way to work if you want to stay afloat financially. The larger a project is, the greater the chance is that some elements of the job has been misunderstood slightly by either party, no matter how good the design / planning documentation is. And that's also one of the reasons I add extra time to what I "believe" will be required: human time estimation has a tendency to be severely optimistic.

 what all the risks are you talking about. 

Artist should come up with a standard(factoring the average time X type of art usually takes, different ranks of detail, ect as part of it), done. If it takes a little longer, big deal, that's the nature of the business, on the flipside of things, some times said piece will be done faster then the standard estimations.

I find artists, and this goes triple for programmers(although unlike artist, sadly all programmers seem to follow the hourly model, which is a crime, because not only are you basically paying for each line of code, you're also paying if the programmer gets stuck. you should only be paying for the lines in the finished code, not for how many times the programmer screwed up as well) who go the hourly rate thing, is just reaching for ways to blow the price of something, to godly heights

Lmao the artist spends a measly few hours more then expected, and all of a sudden it costs hundreds more for it, screw that(it defeats the purpose of a estimate in the first place). 

 

[The Prince of Sarcasm]

I don't know much about cost of stuff and stuff, but this all seems totally nutso expensive. One tileset costs more than the entire rpg maker program, and the program itself has q few full tilesets itself. (well not quite totally full.) I probably have no idea what i'm talking about but I definitely would not pay that much for any art, no matter how good, and pro it is.

 

[Celianna]

I just got in touch with someone from DeviantArt, and she charges $30 per hour that she works on them. She also said that it would take 12-15 hours, which is a price of about $360-$420

Ok, when you said a fully custom tileset, I thought you meant a full TileA1-TileA5 and TileB-TileE. She will literally spend more than 40 hours on completing the autotiles alone, much less everything in 12-15 hours. A full tileset takes about 200 to 300 hours to complete, in which case her eventual pricing would seem a lot more reasonable (around the $9000).


15 hours for a tileset though? Does she expect to use the fill bucket to splash a single block of colour to represent a tile and be done with it or something?


I have a feeling you're not explaining exactly how much you're asking from this artist.

I don't know much about cost of stuff and stuff, but this all seems totally nutso expensive. One tileset costs more than the entire rpg maker program, and the program itself has q few full tilesets itself. (well not quite totally full.) I probably have no idea what i'm talking about but I definitely would not pay that much for any art, no matter how good, and pro it is.

You have it backwards - it's ridiculously underpriced. I'd be hiring her for months to pump out a fully custom tileset every 15 hours just to earn money off of her.

 

[mlogan]

@Prince - You have to look at what you are getting out of it. The tilesets in the store cost much less than a custom tileset so the artist will make his/her money by selling many sets. However, if you are making a game with it, there may be many, many more games that have the same look as yours.

By getting a custom tileset you are getting a look that is completely unique to your game. The average hobbiest game maker is not going to want to pay that kind of money for something they do for fun. But if someone is going to look at selling their game, a custom tileset can be a big boost in getting a better reception of their game, hopefully therefore resulting in bigger sales. Really, for a good selling game, investing $1000 into the tileset is nothing.

 

[Zoltor]

@Prince - You have to look at what you are getting out of it. The tilesets in the store cost much less than a custom tileset so the artist will make his/her money by selling many sets. However, if you are making a game with it, there may be many, many more games that have the same look as yours.

By getting a custom tileset you are getting a look that is completely unique to your game. The average hobbiest game maker is not going to want to pay that kind of money for something they do for fun. But if someone is going to look at selling their game, a custom tileset can be a big boost in getting a better reception of their game, hopefully therefore resulting in bigger sales. Really, for a good selling game, investing $1000 into the tileset is nothing.

Yes, you have to factor in the fact, you are not just getting a tileset, you're getting a "custom" tileset(hopefully pretty close to being exactly what you wanted) There's a big differense between a artist making whatever they please, to sell to the masses, and someone commissioning a artist to make a custom tileset just for them.

 

[Galenmereth]

 what all the risks are you talking about. 

Artist should come up with a standard(factoring the average time X type of art usually takes, different ranks of detail, ect as part of it), done. If it takes a little longer, big deal, that's the nature of the business, on the flipside of things, some times said piece will be done faster then the standard estimations.

I find artists, and this goes triple for programmers(although unlike artist, sadly all programmers seem to follow the hourly model sadly, which is a crime, because not only are you basically paying for each line of code, you're also paying if the programmer gets stuck. you should only be paying for the lines in the finished code, not for how many times the programmer screwed up as well) who go the hourly rate thing, is just reaching for ways to blow the price of something, to godly heights

Lmao the artist spends a measly few hours more then expected, and all of a sudden it costs hundreds of more for it, screw that. 

I did explain the risks. From a programmer's perspective, let me expand on it. Let's say a client hires me to add a new feature to the software I've developed for them. Let's say I estimate 60 hours. When I'm 30 hours into it, and the client tests it in staging, the client realizes that they'd like some changes made to the original plans. They want to cut feature x, but add feature y. Both of these are fairly similar in terms of amount of work, but feature Y requires refactoring some other code somewhere else. This was not in the original specs, so I say that this is all fine, but it might increase the time spent with a few hours.

Now this is where risk comes in. Because now we're already deviating from the original plan, of which I carefully set up an estimate for. The risk is that in the middle of a job, when you pull one feature and add another, it's very hard to foresee how this affects the overall job and therefore time required. If I am to do work, I must get paid for it. If a client isn't willing to pay me for the time I spend working for them, I work for someone else. The risk is money lost, because my time working directly equates to how much I invoice. And so I say, in this example, that it might increase the resulting time spent with a few hours, because I can't be entirely sure exactly how much time this will take in advance. But I do know the ballpark.

"A measly few hours more" is not something to scoff at. We all have limited amounts of hours in our day. I will absolutely not take all the risk inherent in a project that might change over time. I will be honest, forthcoming, and keep an open dialogue at all parts of the process, so that none of my hours billed are surprises. That's not to say that I never "give" away free hours -- I do, depending on circumstance, like for example a bug is found, or to provide other minor updates and improvements later on. This is how I've been doing business for over eight years in total now, and any self-respecting programmer will indeed bill by the hour because the alternative is economically unfeasible.

 

[Sharm]

@Zoltor:  The way you protect yourself from a pay per hour model as a client is pretty simple.  You expect a reasonable time estimate from your artist and fire them if they go too far beyond that.  You also look them up, get references, check out their past work, just like any business who's going to hire someone does.  It's not in an artists best interest to scam you.  You can't delay things for long without the client realizing what you're doing.  Word gets around fast and finding good clients is stupid hard already.  But if you do a good job in a timely manner, that client is likely to come back again or recommend you to their friends.

As for the "measly few hours" thing, you've clearly not worked freelance.  Client changes usually double or triple the amount of work involved, and that's not even close to what would happen if you get a bad one.   There is no possible way to estimate for how picky a client is going to be.  Also, it's extremely common for clients to try and fit in some sort of thing they had planned from the very start as a "minor change".  Say for example, a client says they want a picture of one character.  You get it finished and they say "nope that's not right" and have you completely redraw it.  They really wanted two different character pictures all along but try to get you to send both versions "because they paid for it".  This sort of thing still happens with a per hour model but it's a lot less likely and it's a lot easier to spot since they have to ask for the changes to be done off the clock.

@Prince:  Of course it's expensive, you're paying someone a living wage for skilled work that will take months of full time work to complete.  This isn't some sort of thing that can be done for fun in off hours for a little extra cash.  This is a real job, and real work.  People expect to be paid accordingly.  Things like the store resources and Ace are paid for by offsetting the cost across a large number of people.  If you want something unique to you, you can't spread those costs out, they have to all be paid up front.  There are advantages to doing that, of course, but it's reasonable that it's rarely worth the cost for a small indy company, especially one that isn't established.

 

[Zoltor]

I did explain the risks. From a programmer's perspective, let me expand on it. Let's say a client hires me to add a new feature to the software I've developed for them. Let's say I estimate 60 hours. When I'm 30 hours into it, and the client tests it in staging, the client realizes that they'd like some changes made to the original plans. They want to cut feature x, but add feature y. Both of these are fairly similar in terms of amount of work, but feature Y requires refactoring some other code somewhere else. This was not in the original specs, so I say that this is all fine, but it might increase the time spent with a few hours.

Now this is where risk comes in. Because now we're already deviating from the original plan, of which I carefully set up an estimate for. The risk is that in the middle of a job, when you pull one feature and add another, it's very hard to foresee how this affects the overall job and therefore time required. If I am to do work, I must get paid for it. If a client isn't willing to pay me for the time I spend working for them, I work for someone else. The risk is money lost, because my time working directly equates to how much I invoice. And so I say, in this example, that it might increase the resulting time spent with a few hours, because I can't be entirely sure exactly how much time this will take in advance. But I do know the ballpark.

"A measly few hours more" is not something to scoff at. We all have limited amounts of hours in our day. I will absolutely not take all the risk inherent in a project that might change over time. I will be honest, forthcoming, and keep an open dialogue at all parts of the process, so that none of my hours billed are surprises. That's not to say that I never "give" away free hours -- I do, depending on circumstance, like for example a bug is found, or to provide other minor updates and improvements later on. This is how I've been doing business for over eight years in total now, and any self-respecting programmer will indeed bill by the hour because the alternative is economically unfeasible.

Additions to the project, as well as the outright removal(not just slightly edited) of a feature are definitely grounds for additional costs, don't get me wrong, I just don't think a hourly rate is the way to go. Natually if the client calls for a major change in the project(not just edits or little snippet addons that wouldn't disrupts the already existing art/code), the cost of the project needs to be re-evaluated.

To Sharm: Yea you can do that, if the artist with the style you like, uses a hourly model, you sadly have no choice in the matter, depending how good the artist is vs their style.

Lol, I know hours go by so fast at time, It's not funny, and some of those time, not much progress might've been made(well atleast not in a visual sense anyway). It's actually comical sometimes, I'll sit down at the PC, start writing my stories(non-RM related) or I'll work on the game I'm making in the morning. Then before I know it, 24h have past(I'm so not exaggerating, I mean omfg where did the time go, it like happens in a flash too, It's scary).

 

[Celianna]

I just don't think a hourly rate is the way to go.

Pretty much the rest of the world gets paid by the hour. How come this should be treated differently? Especially since art is NEVER the same?


You simply pay for what you get. A flat rate for art is frankly, stupid. But people do it because they're new to asking for money for their art, and they start off with small prices for things like a "bust" or a "full body". People who ask for a flat rate are usually too afraid to ask for an hourly rate.

 

[crimcrim]

That is way too cheap. You need to make sure you both understand the scope of what you want from each other. For someone who charges $30 per tile and thinking she'll finish in 15 hours for an entire tileset? Nope. Anything I say will just mirror what Celianna said previously so there's no point.

If this is for a commercial project and you're going to have exclusive rights then expect to pay a hefty sum. We're talking thousands and thousands of dollars. Don't be cheap with art please!