Class Discussion: On Balancing Classes

[BloodletterQ]

Welcome everyone to RPG Maker Class Discussion! Tonight, we will discuss an up and coming feature brought to you by none other than Yanfly- the class system!


Well, we've got staples such as the DPS,

I'd like bring up my planned classes. They should be pretty basic since I want to be able to mix and match classes which each have a different focus that way they can be ideally balanced even if one combination is better than the other:

• Warrior: DPSers wielding swords or axes. In most cases, they happen to serve double duty as tanks.
• Guardian: Tanks wielding swords or spears wearing heavy armor. Similar to warriors but exchange the speed and even more defense.
• Rogue: Agile thieves wielding two swords. My plans for them are more field-based and item-based. 
• Archer: Bow-wielders that rely on debuffing foes and inflicting status effects.
• Magus: Masters of the elements who also provide direct healing and can enchant another allies' weapon and armor with an element.
• Bard: Supporters wielding swords, bows, or staves that provide buffs to an ally and indirect healing. Very balanced stats let them do well with just about any sub-class.

In my case players will be able to mix and match classes although besides the protagonist chosen, all other characters will have access to three classes. As these are pretty much common classes, feel free to discuss the ways such common classes can be balanced, even in games with many classes that tend to get gimmicky. You may notice the Cleric is missing, but look further in the Game Mechanics board for my topic on pure White Mages.

 

[Zortik]

Will your characters be a blank slate of equal stats? So that each player will perform exactly the same for each class?
 
I would argue that you could benefit from a Chemist class (item mixing for enhanced effect). It's a great alternative for healing / damage dealing like a caster but without being limited by MP.
 
Myself, I'm in the process of brainstorming these classes. I've got a long road ahead of me and what I'll be sharing may be a little lackluster for this discussion topic.
 
I intend to have "Sphere's of influence" that have their own versions of the core classes (like you listed) plus a few extra. A good example of this would be the Knight.
 
So let me make a god awful picture in text!!

                             Dark Knight

                                      |

                                      |

Rune Knight - - - - - Knight - - - - - Templar

                                      |

                                      |

                              Paladin

I've got to refine the logic / mechanics a lot before it's ready for consideration. But the player would have the base core skills available in Knight. But to get the more unique abilities / upgrades they would need to pursue the alternative jobs/classes and obtain the ability to become that job/class and learn those skills.

Thoughts?

 

[BloodletterQ]

@Zortik
I always think of Knights are more like tanks but your classes seem more suited for a fighter with magical abilities. 

I thought of making rogues the status effect experts but then archers won't have that much for abilities. Now it seems the opposite lol.

Chemists tend to be overpowered (FFX-2 where it's not an Overdrive) or just gimmick classes. (FFV) I fear that my Warrior and Rogue will lean more towards passive abilities. Even a Warrior/Magus will have elemental-attacks at their disposal.

 

[Zortik]

So, you're going for a minimalist approach to the number of classes and ensuring they have a very specific function that can't be accomplished by the other classes?

If that is so...

Then you'll probably want to slice it up into roles and make the determination of who would best fit that role.

Damage dealer, physical damage (Who's the best, who's the second and how much of a gap is there between the two?, does this class rely on skills, equipment or raw stats to differentiate itself?)

Damage dealer, magical damage (Same as above)

Tank (Same as above)

Healer (Same as above)

Status, enhances the party (Same as above)

Status, debuffs the enemies (Same as above)

This would work for me if I wanted to see how much redundancy I had with the classes and whether or not I didn't think through their uniqueness enough.

However, I'm going in the complete opposite direction of you. I'm going to make an expansive number of class branches off of the core classes.

 

[Kes]

@Spellcraftquill

Could I ask you not to quote whole posts when you are replying, it makes scrolling down the page so much more long drawn out. If you need to do something to specify which person you are replying to, just do as I have done here and use the convention

@username

In this instance quoting the whole post was even more redundant, as it was the only post.

Thanks

 

[Crimson Dragon Inc.]

when i think of classes i think of what that classes' role would be in the party

warrior- basic all rounder in the physical department, balanceing hp, def, and atk. all weapons/armor are avalible

knight - a warrior with a more defensive approach who can also heal, sacrifices some attack for more defense and healing spells. generally prefers sword/spear and shield and heavy armor

Destroyer - the glass cannon, completely focused on dealing as much physical damage as possible as fast as possible and ignoring pain, thus greatly sacrificing def for high attack, hp, spd, and crit. generally using battle axs, two handed weapons, or duel wielding and either no armor or light armor

dragoon/slayer- a warrior type class defined by having abilities more suited towards bringing down monsters/dragons as efficently as possible but sacrifices in all stats. prefering spears/axes/greatswords with medium armor

monk- basicly a warrior who relys on base stats rather then equipment. as stated using claws, or knuckles and little to no armor

archer - a long ranged combatant who specializes in hit, crit rates, and crit damage, generally sacrificing melee defense and having a lower atk to balance out the damage or an elf princess/ranger type. uses bows and medium or magic armor

rogue - basicly a thief high spd, hit, eva. duel daggers throwing knives, and rapiers, with light armor

assassin - specialized rogue with more atk, hp, and eva. duel daggers and medium armor

ninja - another specialized rogue, more eva and ability to use magic but slightly less spd. uses ninjatos, kunai, or katana, and wears light armor

healer - considering the number of differant names for this class i'll just call it healer. staff and magic armor

mage - offensive version of the healer

sage - healer and mage combined into one

summoner - godlike magic attack power but needs a strong tank to protect him/her or they will be slain quickly. staff and magic armor

and thats just basic classes.......

also with rpg maker you have a hard time making a item efficent/based  classes with out major scripting

 

[BloodletterQ]

also with rpg maker you have a hard time making a item efficent/based  classes with out major scripting

Yeah well, I really need more help with coming up with warrior and rogue abilities besides passives.

 

[Crimson Dragon Inc.]

well the warrior should have moves that do things like buff his atk/def, or double/triple/quad attack, berseker's rush that sort of thing

the rogue would better fit the role of dealing status ailments and annoying your enemies then an item related character

really the warrior and rogue have the most versatility when designing abilities for them as they only have to fit certain criteria, the rogue is a smooth talker/item theif/back stabber/robin hood well any class can be a rogue as it is a personality type not an actual class, a better name would be thief or trickster, while the warrior's main role is tanking damage and using the attack command so they can work with anytype of ability so long as it fits your worlds lore about the class type

 

[BloodletterQ]

I do agree on rogues being better with status effects, but then the archer will just provide debuffs unless I do paralysis like Etrian Odyssey binds.

 

[Crimson Dragon Inc.]

well the archer is also versatile,

you can have it be a sniper type class that is great at hitting enemies weakspots thus a high hit and crit rate

or you could have the archer be a mage/princess build or a ranger type

an archer is anyone who wields a bow with skill and accuracy so you can make the archer class a jack of all trades type class, with field type abilities, some nice debuffs and buff abilities, some quick attacks that can not be dodged, throw in some basic offensive and defensive spells, you can even add some strike all enemies abilities

see i looked at your list and noticed they are all just basic classes in general, the guardian is a tank with high numbers in hp, def, and mdf.  the magus is a basic spell caster type with no specialization, the bard is a basic class that is a jack of all trades. while the warrior is the base of all melee classes, 

as they are basic classes with no specializations you can actually do quite alot with them

 

[BloodletterQ]

Thieves and Archers are sometimes in one class but looking at mine...

Thief

• Dual-wield
• Steal
• Inflict status effects

Archer

• Lower enemy stats

The archer is the one class that I can't think of skills for and I may consider making them have Pharmacology. Are there any good examples I can look at that have Thieves and Archers as a separate class where classes are overall kind of unique?

 

[Crimson Dragon Inc.]

well there are a few abilities for archers

volley strike - all enemies for 85%(balance) damage 

snipe - 100% hit rate attack for 125% damage with  chance of being a critical attack

pin down - stun effect on all or 1 enemy for normal damage

assassinate - instant death move, has a 300% damage with chance of landing a crit, for when enemies are immune to instant death attacks (make this like a limit break)

and thats for base archers whose role is dealing damage thru archery

other types of archers would be ranger

low level healing, earth, and support spells

possesses all moves except assassinate

possesse some abilities based on inflicting and/or removing poison and paralyze 

with some abilities based around survival and hunting in the wilderness

or one of my personal favorites

moon maiden

high level healing and support magic

high level light and dark magic

mid level elemental magic

mid level status effect magic

only has volley and snipe

 

[whitesphere]

Skills I've used for Archers:

- Sleep Arrow

- Stunning Volley (a chance to stun any opponent).  This isn't even magical, since I envision the arrows literally knocking the enemy to the ground, or at least stunning them briefly.  And in real life arrows DO shoot with a pretty high amount of force.

- Magic Drain - can drain MP from the target

- Sealing Arrow - Prevent magic casters from spellcasting

- Poisoned Arrow - Inflicts poison damage on an opponent

Other Warrior skills:

- Battle Rage - increases ATK at the expense of DEF

- Battle Cry - Chance of making lower level enemies flee

- Rage Storm - Attacks ALL opponents for high damage at the expense of tiring out the fighter for several rounds (i.e. like they are Paralyzed)

Barbarians:

- Stronger at offense than warriors, weaker in physical defense.  Armor is more restricted as is weapon selection.

I might also have Rogues and Archers have different weapon specializations.  Maybe Archers get higher damage with bows than Rogues but Rogues get more Dagger damage.

Other classes:

- Monk - Bare-handed brawler.  High speed, no weapons (except maybe Claws such as Yang from FFIV), can inflict status effects with each attack  Not great at magical defense.

Healers:

- I like them having the ability to do party buffs like Haste or various magical and physical defenses, so they do a lot more than just keep the party alive.

Basically, I try not to have a ton of classes in my games, but I pick and choose so each class has a wide range of abilities that complement each other.

 

[TheHonorableRyu]

If your characters are going to be able to mix and match their classes, I'd recommend that you come up with at least a few more classes. 

 

There's a reason why job swapping rpgs like Final Fantasy V, Final Fantasy Tactics, and Bravely Default have 20+ classes each: if there were a small number of classes and each character can swap main classes and sub-classes, the characters would tend to feel very run-of-the-mill and similar to each other, since the same skills and abilities would be showing up all the time, despite having a system that's ostensibly about specialization and customization.

 

--

It's difficult to have an in-depth dicussion on how to handle job classes without knowing more concrete details about your project's battle and party customization mechanics. For starters: 

• Is your battle system going to be turn based, or atb? (I'm guessing atb because your referred to your warriors as "DPSers".) How does the speed stat effect turn order? Do faster characters get more turns per battle, or do they simply act sooner within a round?

If the former, then it's important to play this up when describing your classes since your describing Guardians as "Similar to warriors but exchange the speed and even more defense" makes them sound awfully similar to Warriors--like Warriors wearing heavy armor.

If the latter, then "more defense, less speed" isn't that big of a difference, and it will be extra important to come up with skills, abilities, and trade offs to make the two classes different enough to justify them being separate classes. Especially if your characters will be able to combine them. 

• How common are elemental weaknesses? Do enemies have separate physical and magical defense stats and resistances? Do enemies have distinct classes that you can tailor classes to, such as the trope of making archer classes strong against flying enemies (either through a damage boost or through flying enemies being evasive but archers having high accuracy), or rogues/hunters dealing more damage to beasts?

• What factors will influence your characters' stat growth? How will equipping multiple classes affect your characters' stats and abilities? Are there any disadvantages to equipping multiple classes? Are skills and abilities less effective when used under a sub-class?

• Are there any mechanics that your game handles in a novel or different way from most rpgs? In my opinion, the best raisons d'être for classes (especially for creating unique classes that don't feel like cheap gimmicks) come about when they're tailored to special game mechanics.

- For example, Etrian Odyssey series and Persona Q have skills called elemental "link skills" where if one unit uses a link skill against an enemy, and another unit hits the same enemy, that enemy will get hit with an extra elemental attack (called a "chase"). Upgrading your link skills allows additional chases and progressively higher damage per chase from one link skill attack. 

This creates an interesting dynamic where you'll want faster units to use the link skills (such that you'll get the maximum number of chases and damage per link skill attack) and to designate slower units to target the same enemy as the link initiator in order to trigger the chases. It also gives more utility to mages and healers when they're conserving their MP/TP/SP, since their otherwise weak normal attacks can trigger the chases just as well. So such a link mechanic creates an opportunity to have classes that specialize in link skills. 

- In Final Fantasy Tactics A2, many units have "Reaction abilities" that trigger under certain conditions, but some classes such as Archers, Ravagers, and Sky Pirates have attacks that can completely bypass reaction abilities. 

- The RPG MAker VX ACe game Obelisk: Devilkiller by Craze has a unique system where skills cost "Burst" points that accumulate each time someone hits enemies or takes certain actions. That afforded him an opportunity to create "Blitz" classes that--instead of traditional roles of dealing damage, tanking, casting magic, healing, etc.--specialize in raising the Burst gauge quickly so that other units can use their Burst skills.

• Etc. Etc.

 

[BloodletterQ]

I thought to ditch the class system sort of. Instead, I will be doing a sort of FFVIII Guardian Force-inspired system where characters equip a tarot card that provides them with every ability, but they need the right stats to use them like Devil Survivor. For example, the Magician provides Fire, Ice, and Thunder which would be ideal for a character with good magic stats, but even a fighter, while weakened, can use physical elemental attacks. They will also provide five passive abilities.

 

[HeathRiley]

I thought to ditch the class system sort of. Instead, I will be doing a sort of FFVIII Guardian Force-inspired system where characters equip a tarot card that provides them with every ability, but they need the right stats to use them like Devil Survivor. ...

     I definitely think its a good idea to try something that's different every so often. Many times we get in our heads what's expected of an rpg and nothing different ever happens. Its why we like to play different series. Persona is different than a job system game, and each FF tries to shake things up (though not always in the right direction haha). Another thing to consider is if different characters progress differently. Maybe 1 character gets abilities from their equipment, while another learns while leveling.

     As far as balance goes, I think its a good idea for every couple positives, there needs to be a negative. The one time I think its okay to break this is when you want your player to use a specific character through most of your game, or to experience the story through a certain character's perspective more than the others.

     The other thing to consider is if your characters are very similar. In FF6 all characters could learn all magic, but they functioned slightly differently on how the did damage or what they could offer to the party. Many times the differences were very small, but occasionally it could be game altering.

     Good luck on developing a balanced and fun game!