Classes and balancing.

[DaveyAlpaca]

Hello, my name is David, and today I want to bring a topic that a lot of RPG and JRPG developers must deal with. the Class or Job system, and how to balance said system. Personally speaking, my personal project consists on using a Class system made up of a Primary and Secondary classes. In my project, the player is able to control over characters that are significant to the plot. The player will be able to change certain aspects of this characters, such as their equipment, their skills, and finally, their Primary and Secondary classes. In my project, a primary class consists of a class that influences certain Stats of the character, while a Secondary class defines by how much those stats will change. For example, a Primary Melee class will influence the ATK and DEF stats, and a Secondary Swordsman class will define in numbers by how much will the ATK and DEF stats change. This rules will allow for a simple, yet effective balancing system, or so I am hoping.

So my question to you all, how do YOU balance the Class or Job system?

 

[ArcaneEli]

So what if you have a Primary Mage and a Secondary Swordsman? What stats will raise then?

And is the only point of a secondary just to Define what you get when you level up? So being a mage who gets Strength in their level ups, why don't you just make the primary give you stats instead.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

a Primary Melee class will influence the ATK and DEF stats, and a Secondary Swordsman class will define in numbers by how much will the ATK and DEF stats change.

What exactly do you mean by "influence" and how different is the "influence" from the effect of the 2nd class?

 

[DaveyAlpaca]

So what if you have a Primary Mage and a Secondary Swordsman? What stats will raise then?

And is the only point of a secondary just to Define what you get when you level up? So being a mage who gets Strength in their level ups, why don't you just make the primary give you stats instead.

Well in my system you can choose a primary from 3 available, Melee, Magic, and Support. Once you have chosen a primary class, you can choose from 3 other Secondary correspondent to that Primary. What I mean by that is that if you chose a Melee, then you can only chose Secondaries that correspond with that class. I think it's better if I list em.

*Melee

Knight

Berserker

Swordsman

*Magic

Holy Mage

Dark Mage

Elemental Mage

*Support

Bard

Rouge

Alchemist

With this list you can see the Primary classes, and once you have chosen a primary class, you can only pic ka Secondary that is in the under that Primary.

What exactly do you mean by "influence" and how different is the "influence" from the effect of the 2nd class?

When I say "influence, I mean that the Primary class will affect certain stats once a Level Up is acquired. Let me explain this again with the list I just used.

*Melee         ATK+ DEF+

Knight

Berserker

Swordsman

*Magic             HP+ MP+

Holy Mage

Dark Mage

Elemental Mage

*Support       AGL+ LUK+

Bard

Rouge

Alchemist

With this, you can see that when a Melee character levels up, that character's ATK and DEF will increase more than that of a Magic or Support Character. Now, let's pretend that you want to break the system and in between level ups you change your Primary, well to do so, the player will visit an NPC that will allow the player to change a character's Primary in exchange of Ability Points. Once a character Levels up, they will earn EXP and ABP, Experience will allow for characters to level up their stats, and ABP will allow to be used as a sort of currency to pay up to change the Primary class, and to Level up the Secondary class.

 

[Engr. Adiktuzmiko]

*Melee         ATK+ DEF+


Knight


Berserker


Swordsman

 
So yeah, melee means you're increasing ATK and DEF... but what about the 2nd class? You told us that 


"Secondary Swordsman class will define in numbers by how much will the ATK and DEF stats change."


Now if that simply means that how much ATK and DEF grows is based on the 2nd class, then technically, it's only the 2nd class that has influence on the stat growth and not really the first class...

 

[DaveyAlpaca]

So yeah, melee means you're increasing ATK and DEF... but what about the 2nd class? You told us that 

"Secondary Swordsman class will define in numbers by how much will the ATK and DEF stats change."

Now if that simply means that how much ATK and DEF grows is based on the 2nd class, then technically, it's only the 2nd class that has influence on the stat growth and not really the first class...

Good point, well I guess I didn't explain it too well, but yeah you're essentially correct. The secondary class will define by how much those stats affected by the Primary will change. Let's say that a knight will gain more DEF than ATK as oppose a Berserker. Now, I will admit, I am fairly new to game creation, so this system is still highly experimental. 

 

[kerbonklin]

Now that you thoroughly explained your system, here's a note:

Usually when games do this type of (generic) thing, you have to make sure that those stat gain choices are meaningful, along with any skills learned. And then you have to make sure that each route of stat-gain can properly get through a whole play-through of the game without hitting road-blocks. A player might say "I want to level my characters as pure Melee-Berserkers from start to finish", never changing to Knight or Swordsman. If they do make that choice, you need to balance everything so that the setup doesn't steamroll though all your enemies/bosses, and to make sure that setup won't make certain enemies/bosses impossible due to lack of defense/HP.

Another thing is that with these kinds of stat mechanics, there's always that "optimal setup" that makes the game a cakewalk, which is extremely hard to balance since 99% of times the developers (you) will not realize what it is, your players will. Your testers won't either.

 

[DaveyAlpaca]

Now that you thoroughly explained your system, here's a note:

Usually when games do this type of (generic) thing, you have to make sure that those stat gain choices are meaningful, along with any skills learned. And then you have to make sure that each route of stat-gain can properly get through a whole play-through of the game without hitting road-blocks. A player might say "I want to level my characters as pure Melee-Berserkers from start to finish", never changing to Knight or Swordsman. If they do make that choice, you need to balance everything so that the setup doesn't steamroll though all your enemies/bosses, and to make sure that setup won't make certain enemies/bosses impossible due to lack of defense/HP.

Thank you, for that I will allow the player to change their Subclass by using the ABP shop system, this may allow for the player to change character's jobs and their Stat measurement. And in my project I will allow for different party members to be in the disposition to the player. This will allow for an open system of customization that may satisfy players when it comes to making their "dream" party. Now you are right, I don't want the player to destroy each enemy by choosing an Over Powered class, so I will be sure to allow enemies and bosses to be difficult and opened to strategies.

I will ask, what kind of other systems would you recommend to study?  

 

[kerbonklin]

I will ask, what kind of other systems would you recommend to study?  

I wouldn't exactly ask this question, but instead ask "what other popular RPGs used this system and were successful? And why were they successful?"  And i'll give you a hint, it's not any of the Final Fantasys or Bravely Default. (They're MAJOR offenders to doing things wrong with the class-mixing system)

I think a good example of the system (done a slightly different way) was Super Mario RPG (except the game wasn't balanced to be challenging and it's pretty easy) but what they did with their stat-variation system was this:

Instead of having classes to alter stats like your scenario, each character gets to choose three set of stats to boost upon leveling up: Power / HP / Special.

Power adds attack/defense, 

HP adds HP

Special adds special attack and special defense

However, as you level, the values of points gained per choice differentiates. One level up may add more Power stats than usual, the next level up may add more HP than usual, and it's designed to advertise character-balancing that the player can choose. Oh and the player can see each growth before selecting one of them. Now in case a player chooses only Power, they could have high defense but low HP, which means surviving isn't too hard, but the main thing is that leveling up through grinding is easy to accomplish, which means hitting roadblocks can easily be overcome. Since the player spent so many levels into Power, the next time they add HP, the value will be super high to compensate. (while the values from spamming Power are generally low)

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TLR If you spam a stat growth method, you can make it so that the gains of it decrease over time, while the gains from other stat growths become big until you start investing more into that. And then make leveling easy/fast so players can avoid roadblocks.

 

[DaveyAlpaca]

Hmm, this is actually truly interesting, I say that because I honestly liked the Job or Class system because of the idea of giving the player choices, yes, it can be truly obnoxious, but I think that choices allow for expression and unique in strategies and character personification. Maybe I can try and balance the system out.

 

[kerbonklin]

Balance is definitely possible, just don't fret it if you accidentally create a monstrous stupidly overpowered Frankenstein of a combination. By your small post-count I can bet this is probably one of your first few projects, so no worries if things get messy, as long as you make a minimum viable product. (a game that works)

Oh and the character personification thing, that's actually the opposite. If you want character personalities then you would probably want a strict single-class actor that matches who they are through their story and available skills. Unless you specifically lock your Melee/Magic/Support to different actors then it's fine. It's all about who you want to control who your characters are. If the dev wants full control, which is easier to design/balance with the story and such, then locked classes make it easier and more sense. If you want the player to have control and are willing to write a more basic story/bio (sacrificing character details/elements) then multiple-class-choosing-mixing is better available.

 

[DaveyAlpaca]

Hmm I never looked at it that way, this is a huge eye opener really. And yeah as my first project, I want to create something original, when I started looking around in the complete projects section, I noticed that the games here are mostly using elements that are set as default from their projects. This bothered me, as a pixel artist I want my game to have an element of uniqueness and creativity put into it. I want to use my own pixel art to be used in the tile sets, my own weapon graphics, animations and much more. But I know I will need more than just graphics to captivate the masses. I will need mechanics, and I will need to balance them out and making sure they work well for the player. I sure don't want my first project to end up in a Frankenstein Monster filled with many subsiding parts that mix match and end up failing. May I ask what kind of balancing system you could recommend?

 

[kerbonklin]

That all depends on you and your game, your own trial and error that you will eventually learn to fix/prevent as you learn more as a developer. Playing other games with similar systems also helps, so you can see what was good and what as bad from other designers. What there are though are various methods that some people use to help make the balancing aspect easier. Some people like to make complex Excel spreadsheets of their character/enemy statistics, some people use things like Yanfly Extensive Debug script to help test specific parts of their game easier, and so on.

And yeah, if you look through various projects, the gap between Beginner and Expert is quite wide, but everyone started as a Beginner at one point. However it's not something you have to exactly release if your game creating is just a hobby thing, and isn't some commercial deadline money-maker. If you want to make a nice opening 1st project with your pixel-art, I would suggest substituting your art and the end of the game-creation progress. You first want a game and mechanics that work and are fun to play with. THEN you can add your own touch/art and other features.

 

[DaveyAlpaca]

Alright, this gives me some motivation to work with. I will try and see what I can do as a small tech demo, then develop around it and make more.

 

[Eschaton]

To answer your question, I balance my classes by having a few as necessary. In my project, I stick to just the three basic classes of Fighter, Mage, and Rogue.

Keep it stupid simple (KISS principle).

kerbonklin is absolutely right in that there are golden builds that will render most of your classes obsolete.

Anyway, don't you wonder if you're making things too complicated for yourself as a developer with such a complex class system? Aren't you worried that such a system would encourage too much experimentation by the player, leaving the player characters at a disadvantage late-game because they changed classes so many times?

 

[DaveyAlpaca]

Alright, I will see if I can tweak the idea, put it into game play, and see what I can come up with, I may come back here with a few examples, and ideas, and ask for help on how to improve them.

 

[Milennin]

I agree that it's important to keep stuff simple, especially if you have no experience whatsoever. Also, couldn't you make something similar to such a class system by giving players the choice out of different kinds of equipment? So you have just a melee class, but the melee character can then choose between gear that either raises attack a lot and defence a little (Berserker), vice-versa (Knight), or a balanced set (Swordsman).


Then you could link the character's skill set to the weapon they're using (which also automatically determines their class). So, if they're using a powerful, offensive weapon (battleaxe, associated with berserker) the character would automatically gain all skills relevant to their weapon up to the character's current level.


Not only would that hugely simplify the class system by combining it simply by equipping items, you also allow the player to freely experiment with whatever they feel like using since they don't have to go to an NPC and have to worry about spending points (as long as they have the equipment, of course).


Even so, the more choice you give to your player, the harder it's going to be to balance the combat in such a way that every combination of all classes can finish the game without being at a major disadvantage compared to other class combinations. While still keeping enemy encounters varied and interesting.


One more comment. Since Holy Mage are the classic healers in RPGs, what reason would the player have to choose the other two mage classes? The Holy Mage would surely save them a lot of money they would otherwise have to spend on potions? Or would you plan on giving all classes a way to recover/protect themselves?

 

[DaveyAlpaca]

My idea in Mages was that a Holy Mage would control healing HP, and control damage on Dark enemies, such as unholy beings.

A Dark Mage would use hexes to cast debuffs, and heal them, while it's attacks would control over Holy beings.

Elemental mage would be controlled mostly in attacks using the elements.

I am probably going to make the game simple, though I am quite unsure on how to add the class system effectively. I do like the idea of having Primary and Secondary classes, but maybe I will change the approach.

 

[Eschaton]

If I were you, I'd go ahead and keep secondary classes while primary classes would be permanent.

Primary classes would be basic, but have the most options, while secondary classes would narrow the scope of an actor's customizability and serve to specialize them. For example, "Mage" would be a primary class while "black Mage," "white mage," and "spellsword" could be secondary classes to further specialize the character.

 

[TheHonorableRyu]

"Melee," "Magic," and "Support" sound more like three categories or groupings of your nine classes, rather than three primary classes. I mean, can the player chose to make a party member a "Melee" class without choosing a "secondary" class? Would a player want to? If I were you, I might just say that there's nine total classes: three groups ("Melee," "Magic," and "Support") with three classes each. 

 

 

There's no one solution to how to balance a job class system, because there's so many variables. Are job class stat changes permanent or do they switch every time the characters switches job class? How easy is it to switch job classes? How long does it take to develop a job class? How many party members can be in battle at one time? How many party members can the player recruit total? What is the damage/cost ratio for magical attacks versus physical attacks? Do enemies use magical attacks as often as physical attacks? How prevalent are elemental weakness and resistances? How reliably do status ailments work? How significantly do buffs boost stats? Is healing magic a requirement or an obvious winning strategy? What do stats like AGI or LUK do in your game? Does your battle system have any rules or concepts that make it different from your run-of-the-mill JRPG, and how might that influence the usefulness of certain stats or skills? Etc. Etc.

 

But one general method that I think holds true regardless is test-playing. Test-play the game yourself, trying out as many possible configurations as you can, and have others test-play the game, because they might try things that you never thought of as a designer. Some game systems or features may sound cool in theory but are broken in practice. Not being too in love with your ideas and keeping an open mind helps to make one willing to make necessary balance changes.