Frostorm

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Ok, so you know how in many RPGs, certain classes get access to certain types of weapons/armor? Well, I was wondering if it'd be weird if an advanced class is unable to equip a weapon type that its predecessor class was able to equip.

For example, the Arbalist class in my game is unlocked from upgrading Scout -> Marksman -> Arbalist. The Arbalist is able to wield Crossbows & Handbows (1H crossbows). However, the Marksman, which can upgrade into either Archer or Arbalist, is able to wield Shortbows & Handbows. For context, the Archer is able to wield Shortbows & Longbows.

Basically, I wanted each prerequisite class to preview the playstyle of its 2 branching class upgrades. That's why the Marksman can use Shortbows & Handbows, giving the player a taste of the Archer & Arbalist classes respectively. However, once they do upgrade to one of those classes, they'll lose access to the weapon type of the class they didn't choose. As in, Archers can't use Crossbows or Handbows, and Arbalists can't use Shortbows or Longbows.

So like, does that seem strange at all?

Alternatively, I could allow the more advanced classes to have access to their earlier weapon types, but make it so the actual skills have specific weapon type requirements. So like, an Arbalist could wield a Shortbow, but most of the Arbalist's skills would still require a Crossbow or Handbow to use. Thoughts?

This is the class progression for the aforementioned classes. (indent = upgrade)
  • Scout
    • Marksman
      • Arbalist
      • Archer
    • Stalker
      • Assassin
      • Guerilla
 

ATT_Turan

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This was done decades ago in Shining Force 2, off the top of my head.
 

Frostorm

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This was done decades ago in Shining Force 2, off the top of my head.
What was, exactly?

I'm just worried about a situation where the player might have a really nice weapon they're currently using, but then they upgrade their class and all of a sudden aren't able to use that weapon anymore.
 

AphoticAmaranth

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Forgetting how to use a weapon after upgrading does seem strange. After all, an upgrade should generally be an improvement.

So like, an Arbalist could wield a Shortbow, but most of the Arbalist's skills would still require a Crossbow or Handbow to use. Thoughts?

This seems like the best solution, imo. Either that, or allow an Arbalist to use all the bows but give them a passive bonus for using Crossbow/Handbow?
 

ATT_Turan

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What was, exactly?
The...situation you're asking about? Wherein a character gets promoted to a specialist class that can't use the base class' weapon?

For that matter, it's in XCOM, also, and the Fire Emblem games, and probably others I'm not thinking of off the top of my head.

Forgetting how to use a weapon after upgrading does seem strange.
You're kind of inserting the "forgetting" bit - there's no reason you'd have to believe that character forgot how to use other weapons, but the point of a specialist class is that character is choosing to...y'know, specialize.

I mean, a soldier who passes their marksmanship training hasn't forgotten how to use a knife, but their standard equipment, which they would initiate attacks with and focus on upgrading, will be a rifle.
 

kirbwarrior

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I feel like the amount of granulation is a bit odd. Why are long bows and short bows different weapons? I thought a hand bow was a crossbow. If you're going this detailed on granulation, then I'd also go this detailed on weapon skill. Instead of "can/n't", I'd give each class a ranking (like Bravely Default and probably a hundred other games, A is best, E is worst);

Marksman has B rank with Shortbow and Handbow, C rank Longbow and Crossbow
Arbalist has A rank Crossbow and Handbow, C rank Shortbow and Longbow
Archer has A rank Short/Longbow, C rank Cross/Handbow
Scout probably has D rank all four plus the (presumably) four weapons of the other tree

Of course, the "problem" ignores what other classes have access to the weapon in question. If Shortbow is also used by Thief, Duelist, Pirate, and Child, then losing access to it with one character could easily mean another character getting to use it.

Another thought is that weapon skills are a choice; Marksman can use Shortbow and Handbow by default, then you learn at least one as you progress through the class, regardless of which third class you pick.


Mind, I don't see it as a problem in a vacuum. I've definitely played a game where someone went from using only axes to using only guns. This only seems like an issue of the weapons themselves;
I'm just worried about a situation where the player might have a really nice weapon they're currently using, but then they upgrade their class and all of a sudden aren't able to use that weapon anymore.
And this is usually a side effect of having too many weapon types. If you find Masacalibur, then anyone who can use swords can use it, but only people who can use greatkatanas can use it and not rapiers, greatswords, katanas, scimitars, or lightsabers. Which itself isn't a problem in many games because you'll likely get the Invisifoil, Mountaincutter, Thousandfoldblade, Sultan's Hand, and Solar around the same time or can easily tell where to get them once you get the Masacalibur.

A further option is just making sure that getting an awesome Longbow happens concurrent to getting a similarly awesome Shortbow. Or make it so longbows are just better than shortbows if weapons get linearly better (for instance, five shortbows and five longbows are the "bows" of the game, Marksman can only use the first five tiers). With that system, then you could leave handbows on Archer because they didn't care enough to learn crossbows to get the better weapons.
 

Frostorm

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I actually really like the A-E weapon proficiency mechanic! I was thinking about implementing it but wasn't sure. My weapon categories used to be super simple. Basically, it's just 1H, 1½H, 2H, Ranged (i.e. bows), Shield, & Magic (staffs/wands/tomes). I'm currently in the process of redoing the categories. But yea, I might've made it a bit too granular. Perhaps I'll just make Shortbows & Longbows into a single category, for example.

Edit:
I thought a hand bow was a crossbow.
This is a Handbow: (or "hand crossbow" if you prefer)
1638943299725.png1638943324564.png
This is a Crossbow:
1638943340674.png

The difference is simply dual-wieldability. Although, I'm not really sure how the Demon Hunter in Diablo III reloads her 2 handbows lol.
 
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ericv00

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Ah, see now, I think this was context that could have been useful in your thread asking for alternatives for "Duelist".

So characters start with a class, then upgrade to advanced classes.

My thoughts on not being able to equip previous equipment:

I get it, I really do. But if there are no other options for the equipment for an advanced class, well, no one would go into battle without something to hand, so I think someone who has learned to use a piece of equipment should be able to use it. I think there needs to be more of a reason to limit what someone can equip other than advanced knowledge. Maybe armor that penalizes certain stats on off-class weapon types?

Ultimately, everyone knows a game is an abstraction of reality, so you should be able to get away with all sorts of logic breaks. ...so long as you don't leave players bamboozled or otherwise dealing with unexpected complications.

What I worry about is a situation where a character advances and suddenly the equipment they had can't be used and they have no class-appropriate equipment to equip themselves with. If this isn't an issue in your game, you are probably fine. <----EDIT: This is how you know I didn't read the full thread before commenting. How embarrassing...
 

kirbwarrior

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My weapon categories used to be super simple. Basically, it's just 1H, 1½H, 2H, Ranged (i.e. bows), Shield, & Magic (staffs/wands/tomes).
One thing you can do to have both granular AND simple is to figure out your categories, then have weapons fall into two (or more); A longbow is both ranged AND requires two hands, a lightsaber is both a wand and a one handed weapon, etc. A generalist class might get any ranged weapon or any two handed weapon, while the archer only chooses twohanded ranged weapons. Or something better than what I can think of in five minutes XD

I think the "three" group types can all work, you just have to take into account of how detailed they are;
Simplistic systems like "ranged/melee", "1/2 handed", "magic/mundane" give extreme flexibility to characters and have very few total different weapons
Detailed systems such as five types of swords, four bows, five axes, etc. give a huge amount of versatility but classes often need to be as versatile to work with it. You could almost make it so "Arbalist" can use crossbows, handbows, slings, and ballistae, while sharpshooters use crossbows, handbows, rifles, and sidearms.
The middle group has the easiest time because so many games have already done it and you can look to them for inspiration.

I actually really like the A-E weapon proficiency mechanic!
I really, really like it especially for situations like you were worried about. I remember getting some bonkers spear with no spear using characters, but even D rank spears made it better than any other weapon so basically anyone in the party could use it and I knew I had it in case I wanted to make someone spear-focused.

If you wanted to maintain the feeling you "learn" as you go without losing knowledge, then Marksman could have C rank in all four bows while the other two classes go up to A rank, giving you a taste of all of them before committing.
 

Frostorm

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One thing you can do to have both granular AND simple is to figure out your categories, then have weapons fall into two (or more); A longbow is both ranged AND requires two hands, a lightsaber is both a wand and a one handed weapon, etc.
Ah, I actually implemented something like this as an experimental feature. Basically, I tried using "tags" instead of hard categories. Like, in the weapon's notebox, I'll put the following:
Dagger...
JavaScript:
<On Creation Eval>
item._tags = ["light", "finesse"];
</On Creation Eval>
or a Crossbow...
JavaScript:
<On Creation Eval>
item._tags = ["heavy", "ranged", "reload"];
</On Creation Eval>
And then I use conditionals like a.equips()[0]._tags.includes("finesse") ? stuff : stuff to give skills certain weapon type requirements or alternative damage formulas.
 

kirbwarrior

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This is a Handbow: (or "hand crossbow" if you prefer)
As opposed to the foot crossbow (that was supposed to be a joke but then I remembered those exist)
The difference is simply dual-wieldability.
Unlike most weapons, I don't think crossbows get especially heavy enough that you couldn't dual wield them. On the other hand, dual-wielding a weapon you have to reload after every shot sounds like a problem waiting to happen.

It basically seems like the difference between "light arms" and "heavy arms", which makes sense. But now I want to see the class that only uses Longbows and Crossbows.
Basically, I tried using "tags" instead of hard categories.
I've always loved the idea. My new idea inspired by this is come up with three or more binary categories (say, 1/2 handed, ranged/melee, mundane/magic), give each weapon 1 of each category, then each class/character is restricted to two (for instance, a wizard might be magic ranged weapons only).

alternative damage formulas.
Well, that can definitely help separate certain weapons. Two handed weapons can have a multiplier of damage, for instance, in exchange for taking up two slots. The archer keeping handbow wouldn't ever be able to get the superior crossbow damage and already has any bonuses from smaller weapons in shortbows, letting you keep skills without sacrificing anything development-wise and give the player some cute options if they want to do things differently.

Only somewhat related, what does the scout use?
 

Frostorm

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Only somewhat related, what does the scout use?
The Scout is the starter DEX-based class. It's basically restricted to "light" weapons. These include things like Daggers, Shortswords, Shortbows, and Handbows. Notice how it's basically the Marksman's weapon options plus more. Each progressive class tier becomes more and more specialized in their choice of weapon(s). The Scout gets a bunch of DEX-focused weapons to play with, melee and ranged alike. Thus the player can get a feel for what playstyle they like more. If melee is preferred, the player can upgrade to the Stalker class. Or if ranged is more their thing, Marksman would be the way to go. From there, it's just rinse 'n repeat for the advanced classes.
 

kirbwarrior

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Each progressive class tier becomes more and more specialized in their choice of weapon(s).
Oh, there's a simple solution then; add Longbow and Crossbow. Is there a particular reason the first two class tiers don't have that weapons? Because otherwise it seems superior skills and stats would be the reason to upgrade.
 

Frostorm

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Actually, if I go the A-E weapon proficiency route, then I'd have no qualms with giving the lower classes those weapons. Someone sent me a really detailed guide on how they went about implementing it, but I gotta go through my old convos to find it...
 

Frostorm

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I feel like the amount of granulation is a bit odd. Why are long bows and short bows different weapons?
Ah, I just remembered why I separated the two into 2 categories!

Basically, Longbows have a range that looks like this:
1639118719766.png

...while the Shortbow's range looks like this:
1639118760398.png
 

kirbwarrior

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Basically, Longbows have a range that looks like this:
Ah, gotcha, that changes everything. Looking at those ranges, longbows are strictly better. Are they supposed to be? If not, shortbows having melee range sounds neat.
 

Frostorm

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Ah, gotcha, that changes everything. Looking at those ranges, longbows are strictly better. Are they supposed to be? If not, shortbows having melee range sounds neat.
Yea, after thinking about it...I think I'll do that! Like so? That way, there's a clear tradeoff instead of one being strictly superior. There is also a Passive skill that increases range with all Bows by 1.
1639161731469.png
 

kirbwarrior

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That's a huge trade off and makes it very much a choice of which weapon you'll use. Do you want superior range or the ability to melee (and possibly counter)? This makes Archer quite appealing, especially if you get the bonus bow range from Archer, but lets you still have fantastic weapon range regardless.
 

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