''Commercial'' doesn't mean quality.

[CrazyCrab]

Hi everyone,

After reading the post concerning Steam it seems like some people believe that a game must be good to be on Steam. It must feature original artwork, have no bugs and be generally more playable than a free game. I've even seen people claiming that someone else's game is not ''good'' enough to be on Steam, that if you want to deal with the big companies your game must be just generally a masterpiece or something.

It's all lies. Commercial =/= Good. 

Would it be nice to be guaranteed that a game that I buy will be good? Yes. Is that the case? Hell no. 

Proof: The masterpiece called ''Air Control''.

This game is worse than 99% of the games I've seen made in RPG Maker, but it's on Steam and people are defending it.

Trailer: http://store.steampowered.com/app/295810/   

Gameplay (Offensive language): 




Someone's opinion: ''To each their own. I loved this game on Desura and cannot wait to play on Steam. This game is a ton of fun once you really get into it, give it half an hour and you should start seeing what I mean''

Honestly, this game has close to no textures, it makes no sense, the UI is completely broken, it has more bugs than a pile of trash in a forest and yet it's still on Steam. And people claim it's fun! Some of the resources are clearly ripped from other products as well, but nobody cares!

In the end all I really wanted to prove with this post is that you shouldnt worry about the quality of your game or even defend yourself from people on Steam when they say that your game was made in RPG Maker. Just link them to this product and then ask if your game is worse.

 

[Shaz]

Unfortunately, too may people are sheep who just need one leader to start the badmouthing, then they fall right into line. I suspect the more vocal/offensive/defensive they get when you suggest they haven't given the game a chance, the less they really know what they are talking about, and the more they are just saying what they've seen/heard others say - because that's the only basis they have for argument.


If the vocal majority were really a true representative of the group as a whole, we'd see RPG Maker games getting pulled from Steam by their developers, because the small income is not worth the hassle. We're not seeing that.

 

[Allusion]

I don't think by brain has ever felt so numb before. Is this a troll company or something? Like 'Lolz lets put up whateves dood and its their fault for buying it! No refundz rihgt?'

Steam really, really, needs to try and put a cap on stuff like this. I know discrimination is a touchy subject, but at least create a standard of quality that the staff could abide by. This thing couldn't pass even the lowest requirement guidelines. It's not even worth the trouble to list all of it's flaws. If it were free I would feel cheated. Good lord....ಠ_ಠ

 

[Needle]

While commercial may not necessarily equate to quality, using this as an excuse to not put forth the effort in your own projects is kind of lazy.

I realize that's not necessarily the point of this post, but remember: just because other people squeeze through the cracks with their lame projects doesn't mean you need to follow suit. Use it as drive to create better games and improve the culture!

I'll always worry about the quality of my game, and I don't think it's a bad thing. It means I'll just work harder to create something better.

 

[Shion Kreth]

It should be obvious to everyone; if you've enjoyed games that used mostly the rtp graphics/music/etc or had otherwise simple mechanics/a simple story or concept/etc, other people will, and will be willing to pay a few bucks to play it. It is unfortunate that people are facing that kind of negativity even within our own community when there'll be more than enough to go around from prejudiced individuals, who've probably never played an rpgmaker game or even just hate jrpgs altogether, when trying to enter other markets like steam.

 

[Galenmereth]

Air Control is satire to highlight just how flawed Steam Greenlight is.

 

[CrazyCrab]

@Needle I fully agree with you - Im sure that most RPG Maker users dedicate themselves to their projects and are trying to do their best.

My biggest problem is that games like this can exist on Steam and get massive sales because ppl find it ''lol so broken so funny I have to show this to my friends'' while games that we make are written off as ''RPG Maker - should be free; Its trash if I have to pay for it''

Its discriminative and disgusting.

 

[Napoleon]

I find that RM doesn't seem to target the 'high-level-budget profesional full-time audience'. I can see it by the prices, resolution, performance issues, RM editor features, etc. But don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with that and I believe that RM is a great product overall. BUT, because of that the overall quality of projects created will be lower compared to projects written in perhaps Unity, XNA, C++.

RM also attracts an audience that is somewhat younger. I don't expect a 16 year old student to have the same experience as a 40 year old game developer. And I don't expect a project created by students with less than a 100$ budget to be statistically better than projects with 100.000$ budget backed by fulltime pro's in full HD resolution.

And on top of that RM allows you to create a game really fast allowing unexperienced people to skip testing, proper mapping, decent story and other important aspects. If you never created a game before then you may get the false impression that your simple game that you created in 3 months for just 100$ is "fantastic" and should be sold for 5$ each.

So when a game is made using RM then the chances for it being of low quality are imo much higher compared to most other engines.

It stil surprises me though that there are so many successful kickstarter projects that only feature badly mapped, RTP only, with no unique features or a great story videos/screenshots. Or script demo's that are just filled with a tiny bit of extra content... Projects that are clearly made by people who don't know what they are doing but they do get fully funded.

And on Steam RM games that have 10x that value are 'downvoted'... The people on Steam must be completely different compared to the funders on kickstarter.

But that Air Control is WORSE than most RM games on the greenlight.

 

[orochii]

Whatever. If a game is ****, it doesn't means you have to make ****ty games. I hope this doesn't ends up on an excuse to make your game bad. Give all your games all your love. Unlike these guys with an urge of easy cash.

Steam is full of crap, sure. Some even look decent (link to A Garry's Incident, and Guise of the Wolf, yeah I follow TotalBiscuit). Some get hype because of this man (link to annoying YT channel). I did a Flappy Bird in less than 2 hours, including all assets. Goat Simulator seems like a random test in Unity, like if I released my test project on Steam (but with a title screen!).

Thing is, not all people want "good" games. It's the niche for hipsters, internet trolls, and youtubers (these will love it if it offers them countless episodes of them doing absolutely nothing, because their fans will undoubtedly watch several EPs, "I better don't miss any of his meaningful jokes!").

You better aim to the more reasonable people, and try to appeal to them in some way. Just forget about YTers and internet trolls. Unless you want to do meaningless works of the devil.

 

[Uzuki]

I know I say this a lot, but I'm confuse. Is this game satire or were the developers dead serious? Because I don't think I could look at that and be like, "Yeah this looks great! Now to release it to the ignorant mass!".

 

[crimcrim]

Don't you dare lower your standards because absolute trash is published. Instead compare yourself to the actual good games. Have some dignity.

Seriously this is ridiculously immature. "But Mooooom, Timmy got a 50 on his test too! And he's really smart! Its ok if I got a 50!" Don't make excuses, make a good game.

If you want to make heartless trash with no love put into it stick to the mobile market. Better yet, don't make games at all.

As far as 'feedback' is concerned I will say this. Your greatest weapon as a developer is the criticism and feedback you receive. If you can't take criticism and feedback, no matter how harsh, then you are a lot more hard pressed to make a decent game.

 

[Nathanial]

Hi everyone,

After reading the post concerning Steam it seems like some people believe that a game must be good to be on Steam. It must feature original artwork, have no bugs and be generally more playable than a free game. I've even seen people claiming that someone else's game is not ''good'' enough to be on Steam, that if you want to deal with the big companies your game must be just generally a masterpiece or something.

It's all lies.

lol no it's not. Just because you found absolute garbage that was deliberately greenlit to prove how flawed greenlight is doesn't mean that wanting to have a SUCCESSFUL game on Steam means you need to put in effort.

This thread's concept is broken.

Yup, the Steam community is stupid. Your points reinforce the serious points in the previous thread. You need to stand out to be taken seriously. Linking a deliberate piece of crap as a parody that attracts idiots isn't really proof of jack squat when we're talking about "serious" RM games.

 

[Simon D. Aelsi]

This made me laugh. I needed a good laugh...

But no I shall NEVER lower my standards!

 

[CrazyCrab]

Don't you dare lower your standards because absolute trash is published. Instead compare yourself to the actual good games. Have some dignity.

Seriously this is ridiculously immature. "But Mooooom, Timmy got a 50 on his test too! And he's really smart! Its ok if I got a 50!" Don't make excuses, make a good game.

If you want to make heartless trash with no love put into it stick to the mobile market. Better yet, don't make games at all.

As far as 'feedback' is concerned I will say this. Your greatest weapon as a developer is the criticism and feedback you receive. If you can't take criticism and feedback, no matter how harsh, then you are a lot more hard pressed to make a decent game.

lol no it's not. Just because you found absolute garbage that was deliberately greenlit to prove how flawed greenlight is doesn't mean that wanting to have a SUCCESSFUL game on Steam means you need to put in effort.

This thread's concept is broken.

Yup, the Steam community is stupid. Your points reinforce the serious points in the previous thread. You need to stand out to be taken seriously. Linking a deliberate piece of crap as a parody that attracts idiots isn't really proof of jack squat when we're talking about "serious" RM games.

Hmm I guess I should've made it clear that it is a satirical thread with a clearly extreme example that, while not proving anything, can be used to show that it's really not that hard to get a game on Steam.

I should make it clear. I NEVER mentioned lowering your standards - if I did, please point me towards them because I'm not seeing it.

I made this thread after reading this one over there - http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/27193-tips-on-dealing-with-steam/

Why? Because instead of helping Dark Gaia people started to break the game down into ''Not enough original assets'' ; ''Not enough innovation'' etc.

This lead to the general idea of ''if you're not a professional developer don't even dare messing with Steam'' and that's total nonsense. 

Honestly, how are sentences such as ''The Aldorlea games are (in my opinion) awful. They look like "slightly better RTP" which is still terrible. None of them deserve to be on Steam. Steam isn't meant for stereotypical RPG Maker.'' justifiable? 

This game proves that anything can be on Steam, whether you like it or not. Steam is not some magical warehouse with precious space that will run out because people put games on it and if ''Air Control'' shows us anything it is the fact that some people, shockingly enough, are actually enjoying it. Hell, I enjoyed the video that I linked out of how hilariously terrible it is.

If something is enjoyable, even by one person and there is no harm in keeping it on Steam, keep it there. 

 

[DavidGil]

CrazyCrab,

I do actually agree with everything you're saying, and I'm glad you've referenced points which annoyed me in the previous thread. However, there is one thing I'm not sure I agree on and that is people actually liking the game linked up top. To me, it seems like a perfect candidate for 'devs hiring people to praise the game'. Just that I don't see how anyone can find it even remotely enjoyable really, and I'm hardly one to ever say that about a game whenever there's a positive review. Could be I'm underestimating people though, which I should know not to do.

(Unless people just like laughing at things, anyway.)

 

[CrazyCrab]

CrazyCrab,

I do actually agree with everything you're saying, and I'm glad you've referenced points which annoyed me in the previous thread. However, there is one thing I'm not sure I agree on and that is people actually liking the game linked up top. To me, it seems like a perfect candidate for 'devs hiring people to praise the game'. Just that I don't see how anyone can find it even remotely enjoyable really, and I'm hardly one to ever say that about a game whenever there's a positive review. Could be I'm underestimating people though, which I should know not to do.

(Unless people just like laughing at things, anyway.)

Yeah, I have a feeling it's just what happened to Goat Simulator - praising it's bugs, saying it's all great and funny. That game had actual content though so it wasn't such an obvious offender I guess.

After all it's kinda hilariously bad, it feels like it is some kind of a lunatic's dream... I mean, what game starts with the premise of a zombie, a dwarf and a businessmen owning different companies... It's somewhat refreshingly stupid.

If that game was 50 cents I'd buy it just for the laughs, not kidding.

(Worth noting that I don't have a sophisticated sense of humor. I laugh at everything Mr. Bean does  )

 

[crimcrim]

I should make it clear. I NEVER mentioned lowering your standards - if I did, please point me towards them because I'm not seeing it.

I made this thread after reading this one over there - http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/topic/27193-tips-on-dealing-with-steam/

Why? Because instead of helping Dark Gaia people started to break the game down into ''Not enough original assets'' ; ''Not enough innovation'' etc.

This lead to the general idea of ''if you're not a professional developer don't even dare messing with Steam'' and that's total nonsense.

Honestly, how are sentences such as ''The Aldorlea games are (in my opinion) awful. They look like "slightly better RTP" which is still terrible. None of them deserve to be on Steam. Steam isn't meant for stereotypical RPG Maker.'' justifiable?

This game proves that anything can be on Steam, whether you like it or not. Steam is not some magical warehouse with precious space that will run out because people put games on it and if ''Air Control'' shows us anything it is the fact that some people, shockingly enough, are actually enjoying it. Hell, I enjoyed the video that I linked out of how hilariously terrible it is.

If something is enjoyable, even by one person and there is no harm in keeping it on Steam, keep it there.

This entire thread implies lowering your standards. Just because you didn't say it verbatim doesn't mean the idea isn't there .I hold games to a higher standard as a developer so my opinion is justifiable, because its my opinion. I think Aldorlea's games look awful.

Now to break down the last portion of your post. If you are speaking as a consumer? Yes you are indeed correct. More games is awesome! Means more choices. If you are speaking as a developer? You're dead wrong.

Steam is oversaturated with crap and shovelware and its only getting worse. What does this mean for you a a developer? Well, some of us know how Steam functions as far as sales go. I can say with no doubt in my mind that all of these games being published is a huge negative impact on developers. You run the risk of being pushed out of the spotlight by these games. Not because of quality, but because of quantity. I can't delve into the subtle nuances of how this works because its a huge breach of what is confidential information.

If you're in th business of game development as a life goal and you want to make your living off of it then the over abundance of ****ty games is a huge deal and you're put at a loss.

This is the real world.

 

[CrazyCrab]

This entire thread implies lowering your standards. Just because you didn't say it verbatim doesn't mean the idea isn't there .

I hold games to a higher standard as a developer so my opinion is justifiable, because its my opinion. I think Aldorlea's games look awful.

Now to break down the last portion of your post. If you are speaking as a consumer? Yes you are indeed correct. More games is awesome! Means more choices. If you are speaking as a developer? You're dead wrong.

Steam is oversaturated with crap and shovelware and its only getting worse. What does this mean for you a a developer? Well, some of us know how Steam functions as far as sales go. I can say with no doubt in my mind that all of these games being published is a huge negative impact on developers. You run the risk of being pushed out of the spotlight by these games. Not because of quality, but because of quantity. I can't delve into the subtle nuances of how this works because its a huge breach of what is confidential information.

If you're in th business of game development as a life goal and you want to make your living off of it then the over abundance of ****ty games is a huge deal and you're put at a loss.

This is the real world.

I guess that's the main difference then, I always speak and will try to speak from the consumer's perspective as it is who I am making the game for. I'm not making it because I want a place on Steam or because I want to earn money. I'm making it because I think I had a great idea for a game and I think that others will enjoy playing the game, that's it. Will it be nice to earn money from it and make it my full time job? Yes. Is this my main goal from the very beginning? No, I will make my game and then thing will just happen by themselves.

Now concerning the ''New Releases'' List on Steam, I don't think I have the right to decide that should be on it and what should not. In my opinion it should be an arbitrary list, if something is a new release, put it there. If something is not, don't put it there, simple as that. I don't think I'm in the position to decide what deserves a spot on Steam and what doesn't and I hope I never will have to make that decision - one man's trash is another one's treasure, I'm not comfortable with claiming that something is trash if even one person is enjoying it. 

Besides, I might be overly optimistic but I believe that a good game doesn't need a spot on the new releases list to be noticed and rewarded. Minecraft never got on Steam, yet it has made millions. I think that if your game is good, it will stand out and the fans will enjoy it.

I may live in a twisted version of the world where good things don't go unnoticed, but I guess I might be overly optimistic.

 

[orochii]

This entire thread implies lowering your standards. Just because you didn't say it verbatim doesn't mean the idea isn't there .

I hold games to a higher standard as a developer so my opinion is justifiable, because its my opinion. I think Aldorlea's games look awful.

Now to break down the last portion of your post. If you are speaking as a consumer? Yes you are indeed correct. More games is awesome! Means more choices. If you are speaking as a developer? You're dead wrong.

Steam is oversaturated with crap and shovelware and its only getting worse. What does this mean for you a a developer? Well, some of us know how Steam functions as far as sales go. I can say with no doubt in my mind that all of these games being published is a huge negative impact on developers. You run the risk of being pushed out of the spotlight by these games. Not because of quality, but because of quantity. I can't delve into the subtle nuances of how this works because its a huge breach of what is confidential information.

If you're in th business of game development as a life goal and you want to make your living off of it then the over abundance of ****ty games is a huge deal and you're put at a loss.

This is the real world.

Add to the "****ty games" the "rereleased OLD games", and of course, the rereleased 100yrs old ****ty games!

Basically, 20 old games at the front page, instead of the 20 new games.

And being at the front page is gold. No, it's diamond. Nope nope, something way more valuable.

 

[Sharm]

It seems to me the question is "should commercial games have standards". I say yes. I think that if it's free you should be willing to sort through the bad games to find the things of a certain quality level but that if you're charging money for it you should hold it to at least the standard of "better than what you can easily find for free".


If you were to put your game out there through a publisher, it would be expected to be held to a certain quality standard, and this standard is expected to be a higher than the norm of "independently published". When buying a published book you would be upset if you bought something that was poorly written, had spelling errors and so on. The same should be true of any other publishing endeavor.


A lot of the problems with this conversation is that people are treating Steam like a publisher when it is simply a distribution platform. Steam has no desire to be the gatekeepers for content quality but it's clear to me that the majority of users expect them to be so.


In my mind this means that the creator who's distributing their own work through steam should hold themselves to that professional publishing standard. The expectation is there by the users for this to be done by someone, you will be more competitive if you do that to yourself.


Yes, holding games to that standard isn't mandatory, but that doesn't mean as much as some people here seem to think. It's becoming much more common for gamers to try to find other ways to hold games to a standard since there are no gatekeepers the way there are in other entertainment industries. This is why metacritic scores are a big deal. My point is, even if you don't hold yourself to that higher professional standard on steam, other people will.


As much as I hate Killim's abrasive attitude on this, I do actually agree with him on some of his points. The people who do reviews on metacritic are not professional gatekeepers. They aren't expected to know the ins and outs of your genre, they're not expected to know what's standard and what is original. A lot of those reviews are going to be gut reactions and those gut reactions are going to be heavily influenced by how much garbage they have to sort through to find something worthy of their time. This means that things like artwork have a much higher effect on a metacritic score than other, just as difficult aspects like how epic your final boss fight is. It also means that the quality of other games that aren't yours but in your genre will have a huge impact on the perception of your genre and therefore your bottom line. This is why Killim is acting personally attacked by the existence of what, in his mind, is a substandard game, because in a way, he actually is.


Now, this has resulted in something rather surprising to me. If you don't count trolls, the harshest critics of commercial RPG Maker games aren't the users, they're the other RM developers. These developers are so paranoid of being grouped together with the lower standard that they pull down games that are actually perfectly acceptable by the public. You get the "they wouldn't like it if they knew what real art was" sort of attitude. I personally hate that attitude, it results in celebrating the bizarre over the functional and ignoring and belittling the popular. I don't want things to get to that point in the RM community. There is as much to learn from a unpolished popular game as there is from a highly polished unpopular one. Learning those things makes everyone better.